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Author Topic: the Marenius thread: MM-4220, SMF-5 mkIII etc (was "smallest 4ch/2tr")  (Read 35036 times)

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Offline marenius

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Re: Smallest 4ch/2tr mixer/recorder?! Marenius MM-4220
« Reply #30 on: March 24, 2009, 04:25:11 AM »
The new SMF-5mkII will run from mains power only.
Our main purpose with this amplifier has always been to offer the lowest noise-level available for high-end recordings.
Up until now it has been possible to use 2x 9V batteries for alternative powering.
However, in this mode there is an internal 30 kHz oscillator running to produce the 48V phantom power.
This affects the noise-level as well as total uptime, depending on mic power consumption.
Another drawback is that 9V power reduces the peak margin by almost 6 dB.
Since we do offer a very good alternative for portable use, the MM-4220 mixer, we feel confident with removing battery powering for the new SMF-5mkII.
MM-4220 is both a high-end amplifier + a recorder + a power pack.
We have also reduced noise-level by another 3 dB in SMF-5mkII by putting in the worlds (as far as we know) best amplifier, when it comes to noise-level, immediately after the Lundahl transformer. Note that this amplifier needs a lot of power, hence making it even less realistic to run from small batteries.
It is also quite expensive, as well as the Lundahls.

/Leif

Offline audBall

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Re: Smallest 4ch/2tr mixer/recorder?! Marenius MM-4220
« Reply #31 on: March 24, 2009, 07:54:00 AM »
^ Does the older model SMF-5 have Lundahls too?
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Offline marenius

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Re: Smallest 4ch/2tr mixer/recorder?! Marenius MM-4220
« Reply #32 on: March 24, 2009, 07:56:43 AM »
Yes, the same Lundahls are used in the older SMF-5.

Offline Colin Liston

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Re: Smallest 4ch/2tr mixer/recorder?! Marenius MM-4220
« Reply #33 on: March 24, 2009, 09:18:12 AM »
Does the older model MM 4210  have Lundahls too?
Occasionally....music mics record

kirk97132

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Re: Smallest 4ch/2tr mixer/recorder?! Marenius MM-4220
« Reply #34 on: March 24, 2009, 03:06:24 PM »
The new SMF-5mkII will run from mains power only.
Our main purpose with this amplifier has always been to offer the lowest noise-level available for high-end recordings.
Up until now it has been possible to use 2x 9V batteries for alternative powering.
However, in this mode there is an internal 30 kHz oscillator running to produce the 48V phantom power.
This affects the noise-level as well as total uptime, depending on mic power consumption.
Another drawback is that 9V power reduces the peak margin by almost 6 dB.
Since we do offer a very good alternative for portable use, the MM-4220 mixer, we feel confident with removing battery powering for the new SMF-5mkII.
MM-4220 is both a high-end amplifier + a recorder + a power pack.
We have also reduced noise-level by another 3 dB in SMF-5mkII by putting in the worlds (as far as we know) best amplifier, when it comes to noise-level, immediately after the Lundahl transformer. Note that this amplifier needs a lot of power, hence making it even less realistic to run from small batteries.
It is also quite expensive, as well as the Lundahls.

/Leif

A lot of us use a 9v DVD style battery with between 5400Mah and 6000Mah capacity which would add a lot more life to the 9V source.  If there were to be that kind of capacity would  there still be a 6db loss of peak?  Would a 9V DC input jack be an option?  The Mixer looks great but is significantly more money at over twice the cost of the separate pre-amp.  Since someone like myself who already has a 4 track flash card recorder the mixer is not really an option that I would be looking for.  OK I quess I should ask do you have any of the older versions of the preamp still in your inventory?  Leif, thanks so much for answering the many questions posed and putting up with someone like myself, Kirk

Offline audBall

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Re: Smallest 4ch/2tr mixer/recorder?! Marenius MM-4220
« Reply #35 on: March 24, 2009, 03:25:36 PM »
Yes, the same Lundahls are used in the older SMF-5.

I should've asked this as well, but what about in the MM-4220?

Thanks for all your input here, Leif.
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Offline marenius

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Re: Smallest 4ch/2tr mixer/recorder?! Marenius MM-4220
« Reply #36 on: March 27, 2009, 05:14:23 AM »
Neither MM-4210 nor MM-4220 have transformer inputs. This is because of the size and weight of the Lundahls.
We do not have anything left of the old SMF-5.
9V supply is a really limiting factor when it comes to ultra low-noise amp´s.
To achieve a wide dynamic range you will need both a very low noise floor and a very high peak level range.
SMF-5 internal amp´s run at +/-15 VDC. The power supply actually delivers 2 x 15 VAC, it is a plain transformer. To get +/-15 VDC from 9 VDC you will need a DC/DC switcher. Putting one next to an ultra low-noise amp while trying to obtain lowest noise level is not possible.
You can actually feed the SMF-5mkII from an external DC/DC converter. It should deliver +/-24 VDC @ 50-100 mA. Then you can choose whatever raw input voltage you like.
We may consider manufacturing a product like this. Would anyone buy that?
There is one problem left, then. 48 V phantom power is produced by multiplying the 30 VAC voltage by a diode ladder. Feeding +/-24 VDC to SMF-5mkII will not give +48 VDC, rather +20 VDC. Some microphones will run from this voltage, though.

Conclusion:
You can use an external DC/DC converter and achieve maximum noise performance but without correct phantom power.

MM-4220 bragging...
We delivered a new MM-4220 to the well-known recordist Peter Axelsson, earlier this week.
He mailed me the day after and wrote (in translation):
"All the stuff you have designed for the Swedish Broadcasting Corp. are top quality.
This thing has four inputs that I have never heard anything alike, and an A-D that is better than a Weiss.
There is a full transparence. It is a Nagra to the power of 2."

/Leif

kirk97132

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Re: Smallest 4ch/2tr mixer/recorder?! Marenius MM-4220
« Reply #37 on: March 27, 2009, 12:50:56 PM »
Leif,  Once again you succinctly answer all the questions posed to you with an open mind and an eye towards the future.  I am a small fish here in a big big pond.  But, from what little I know and have learned I would suspect that not having +48V phantom would be a drawback and play against the unit.  There are some mics which require a certain lower voltage but I am not well versed enough to be able to cite which mic and what that voltage is, maybe ribbon or tube mics? Maybe someone who knows will chime in.  As for power the "norm" for a lot of guys running portable rigs is 6V, 9V & 12V.  They also seem to be the most supported voltages by aftermarket manufacturers.   Remember that I am a novice and you are the expert, but if I were to be looking at a portable design, I would try to base the external battery requirement around those voltages or multiples of them.  I keep saying external because of two reasons.  One it cuts down on space and two it lets the user choose the battery life that best fits their needs.    As for would anyone buy these, besides the live record people I would expect the ENG and film market to be interested in any high quality portable gear.  Thank you again for your gracious replies.  I would really like to run some of your gear one of these days...do you need a distributor on the West coast of the United States?  It's really great that you take time out of your day to stop by hear and let us pick your brain and field our questions, it's refreshing to see another person who makes equipment taking time to talk to the little guys.  Take care, Kirk

Offline marenius

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Re: Smallest 4ch/2tr mixer/recorder?! Marenius MM-4220
« Reply #38 on: April 03, 2009, 06:56:55 AM »
F.y.i. I have initiated a design work on SMF-5mkII with the goal to offer external 10-35 VDC power supply input while maintaining the ultra-low noise levels and 48V phantom supply.
In a week or two we will have the test results from this work and they will be posted here.

/Leif

Offline audBall

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Re: Smallest 4ch/2tr mixer/recorder?! Marenius MM-4220
« Reply #39 on: April 03, 2009, 07:53:26 AM »
Great news!  We look forward to hearing the results.
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Offline ghellquist

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Re: Smallest 4ch/2tr mixer/recorder?! Marenius MM-4220
« Reply #40 on: April 05, 2009, 10:17:03 AM »
Just a small note on phantom power. Among the most picky mics are the Earthworks units. These generally require the full spec 10mA.

Gunnar

kirk97132

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Re: Smallest 4ch/2tr mixer/recorder?! Marenius MM-4220
« Reply #41 on: April 05, 2009, 08:19:53 PM »
F.y.i. I have initiated a design work on SMF-5mkII with the goal to offer external 10-35 VDC power supply input while maintaining the ultra-low noise levels and 48V phantom supply.
In a week or two we will have the test results from this work and they will be posted here.

/Leif

Leif One of the most popular Li-Ion batteries that gets used is the 9V model so if it were to be in multiples of that it would be easily adaptable to anyone who already has the batteries by changing the cord to wire it in series.  So, 18V or 27V  which could add to the popularity.  of course you know better what voltages are needed.  Thank you for listening, Kirk

Offline BayTaynt3d

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Re: Smallest 4ch/2tr mixer/recorder?! Marenius MM-4220
« Reply #42 on: April 12, 2009, 08:29:09 PM »
The thing about 24-bit is I can get 16-bit dynamic range with A SH!T TON of headroom added on top for good measure.
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Re: Smallest 4ch/2tr mixer/recorder?! Marenius MM-4220
« Reply #43 on: April 13, 2009, 09:19:18 AM »
18v DC no prob.  2x9v in series.  viola!

Offline marenius

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Re: Smallest 4ch/2tr mixer/recorder?! Marenius MM-4220
« Reply #44 on: April 15, 2009, 03:55:49 AM »
The thing about 24-bit is I can get 16-bit dynamic range with A SH!T TON of headroom added on top for good measure.

Well, right! That is, if you feed the A-D input with a signal that has a dynamic range much larger than 96 dB.
24 bits equals 144 dB. This is not yet experienced by man.

A well-designed audio system has the analog clipping level equal to all bits set in the A-D. This will offer maximum performance, with the analog signal being the limiting factor. Then, hope for the noise floor to sit more than 96 dB down and you may benefit from more than 16 bits.

/Leif

 

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