Topic: Fostex FR-2 Power

[dsteinwedel]

Hi All,

Been lurking for a while, first post. I'm looking to find the best powering solution for my FR2. My requirements are fairly simple: small(ish), lightweight, and rugged. I use the recorder on the move and require something which will fit in a secondary PortaBrace bag and not come loose while in use.

A lot of people in my field rig up NP style camera batteries to their recorders. In that vein, I've been looking at this
http://www.filmtools.com/idx-np-style-lithium-ion-battery-with-digi-view-np-l7.html
In conjunction with this
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&SID=skim690X1299&sku=336771&AID=10603278&PID=3640931&is=REG&A=details&Q=

However, I'm worried that the adapter box won't securely hold the battery, so my other option is a full cradle, somehow rigged to the FR2.
http://www.filmtools.com/idx-single-np-battery-holder-with-digiview-nh-100.html

But as I've been researching I've also been seeing lots of talk about the DVD player batteries around these forums. I'm wondering if someone here has first hand experience with the FR2 and one of these
http://www.amazon.com/Tekkeon-MP3450-myPower-Rechargeable-Battery/dp/B000S9JWJI/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1259768925&sr=8-3
or these
http://www.batterygeek.net/BG-9-12-130-Portable-DVD-Player-Battery-p/9-12-130_batterygeek.htm

Thoughs, opinions? Any input is appreciated.

Thanks!
Dave

[flipp]

I use the predecessor (10-14-88) of the following BatteryGeek unit for my FR2. It fits well in a RM-Multi but might move around a bit in the RM-Deluxe. I've toyed with the idea of attaching some Velcro to the battery and the AR-FR2 but am not sure whether the top or bottom would be better for how I usually use the recorder - horizontally rather than vertically if using a shoulder strap. Longest I've run it was over 5 hours with P48 on and only one of the charge level lights had gone out. I suspect the 9-12-130 would work just as well and might give you a little longer run time between recharges.

http://www.batterygeek.net/Portable-DVD-Player-Battery-p/10-14-100_batterygeek.htm


< looked at the size spec of the 9-12-130 and it may be a tight fit in a Multi but have plenty of room in the Multi-D >

[guysonic]

Another more custom/costly and very, very, very long running FR2 powering solution is shown on my site's external battery sleds page at: www.sonicstudios.com/batsys98.htm#fr2

[Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)]

So, I gotta ask...how the hell can a BATTERY cost $250!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Shit for $250 I want that thing to last YEARS between charges. Is it one of them new fangled Fuel Cells or something?! Nuclear power? It's got to be some pretty fancy stuff going in to that.

[guysonic]

So, I gotta ask...how the hell can a BATTERY cost $250!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Shit for $250 I want that thing to last YEARS between charges. Is it one of them new fangled Fuel Cells or something?! Nuclear power? It's got to be some pretty fancy stuff going in to that.

Professional use only suggested and sleds seem to last at least 10 years of active use.

[Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)]

So, I gotta ask...how the hell can a BATTERY cost $250!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Shit for $250 I want that thing to last YEARS between charges. Is it one of them new fangled Fuel Cells or something?! Nuclear power? It's got to be some pretty fancy stuff going in to that.

Professional use only suggested and sleds seem to last at least 10 years of active use.

I don't get it. Are they made from something special. You answer is sort of vague.

I use a $35 R/C car battery that has lasted me for 2 years and is still going strong. Even if it died tomorrow I'd still be way under $250 for a total cost over 10 years. I record about 75-100 sets of music a year.

[tgakidis]

So, I gotta ask...how the hell can a BATTERY cost $250!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Shit for $250 I want that thing to last YEARS between charges. Is it one of them new fangled Fuel Cells or something?! Nuclear power? It's got to be some pretty fancy stuff going in to that.

Professional use only suggested and sleds seem to last at least 10 years of active use.

I would hope a piece of plastic and a bunch or wires would last 10 years.  It is the batteries that should be the real cost, not the vehicle to deliver the power.  Thank good I am just a hack and not a professional 

[spzkt]

I use the predecessor (10-14-88) of the following BatteryGeek unit for my FR2. It fits well in a RM-Multi but might move around a bit in the RM-Deluxe. I've toyed with the idea of attaching some Velcro to the battery and the AR-FR2 but am not sure whether the top or bottom would be better for how I usually use the recorder - horizontally rather than vertically if using a shoulder strap. Longest I've run it was over 5 hours with P48 on and only one of the charge level lights had gone out. I suspect the 9-12-130 would work just as well and might give you a little longer run time between recharges.

http://www.batterygeek.net/Portable-DVD-Player-Battery-p/10-14-100_batterygeek.htm

< looked at the size spec of the 9-12-130 and it may be a tight fit in a Multi but have plenty of room in the Multi-D >

I'd second the BatteryGeek unit. I'm running a HDP2 of one of these in the portabrace hdp2 case and the 10-14-88 fits nicely in the front accessory pocket.  I'm using a strip of self-adhesive velcro on the back of the battery to attach to the velcro in the pocket.  I've had 24hr+ run time from a full charge.

cheers
Paul

[guysonic]

I have noticed some detractors of my external battery solutions have strong comments likely NOT realizing these posts not serving the spirit of the orignal inquiry to respond with any and all external/internal FR2 power solutions that might fit his requirements. 

Many of the detractors fail to understand by NOT reading about how a Sonic Studios battery solution works, lasting over a decade of frequent use, or looking at the my posted information link having clear product description and some useful battery tips. 

For those who desire to learn a bit more and hopefully to add whatever commentary they feel appropriate, suggest a better place named "HIGHWAY ROBBERY" found in the TS Retail Section at: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=83618.0

[Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)]

I have noticed some detractors of my external battery solutions have strong comments likely NOT realizing these posts not serving the spirit of the orignal inquiry to respond with any and all external/internal FR2 power solutions that might fit his requirements. 

Many of the detractors fail to understand by NOT reading about how a Sonic Studios battery solution, lasting over a decade of frequent use, works or looking at the my posted information links having clear product description and some useful battery tips. 

For those who desire to learn a bit more and hopefully to add whatever commentary they feel appropriate, suggest a better place named "HIGHWAY ROBBERY" found in the TS Retail Section at: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=83618.0

I'm simply asking what makes it worth $250. Saying that it's "professional" isn't the answer I was looking for. I'm just curious. I tried to read your website, but it's very disorganized and gives me a headache (seriously I had to stop looking at it).

I can't even tell from your website if what you are selling even INCLUDES batteries. Is it just a sled with dummy cells? Does it include some sort of special batteries. That is all I am asking.

Like I said, I currently run my FR2LE off of a 3600 mAh NiMH R/C car battery. It powers the unit for 6-7 hours and cost about $35. I can recharge it in a couple of hours. It is 2 years old and still takes a charge and still runs 6-7 hours.

Many other people run these decks off of the "Wal-Mart" DVD battery with a similar price and result.

I asked what makes YOUR battery pack so much more expensive (and theoretically that much better).

Part of the reason I am asking you is to HELP the OP decide what is best for him, and also suggest alternative options.

From what I can conclude from the information I have, either the DVD battery or a R/C car battery seems to be much more economical.

[flipp]

Mike, the FR2 and FR2LE are different recorders with different power requirements. Unlike the LE's capability to use rc batteries internally, the FR2 takes 8 AA batteries internally or dummy cells that supply external power to the internal contacts. Only other way I am aware of to power an FR2 externally is to use a 12v power source and plug it into the FR2's AC adapter port. The latter is how the BatteryGeeks units mentioned above power the FR2. While the FR2 can operate successfully on a lower voltage, I can't recommend it. I've used a 9.6v/3600mHa RC battery to power both my FR2 and FR2LE without apparent harm but am not sure I get a full 48v phantom when using less than 12v with the FR2 so when I saw a 10-14-88 in the yard sale for a fair price I bought it. As far as I am aware, there are no inexpensive 12v "WallyWorld" style DVD batteries available. The BG 9-12-66 is about half the cost of guy's sled but the 9-12-130 and the 10-14-100 are comparable or more expensive.

Inferring from the OP's "I use the recorder on the move" and "A lot of people in my field", I doubt he is using his FR2 to record concerts but rather that he works in the movie/film/advertising or ENG end of the industry and his requirements for power have different criteria than what we have in the environment where we use our equipment. Depending on what "secondary PortaBrace bag" he uses, guysonic's sled may be just what he's looking for. In my case the 10-14-88 in a RM-Multi bag is ideal. The tekkeon may be an even better fit but I'm not familiar with it so won't offer a comment.

It would be nice if the OP posted again with what is most important to him; size, weight, length of charge/battery capacity. etc.

[guysonic]

OK, thank you taking time explaining the confusion. 

It's NOT that my powering sleds are better than your current battery solution for <7 hours use where recharging is easy after each session.  Yes, they far more reliable than rechargeables solutions, but for non-professionals, reliability is usually not so important to consider paying a premium for custom made batteries priced as required to produce in this fashion. 

While I have been producing these special battery sleds since 1992, some of the high reliability materials are no longer available in USA (or anywhere in small affordable quantities) needing to be special large quantity ordered at cost of thousands $. 

So I have to charge both for my time and materials to keep this product viable.

I do sometimes get thanks from sled customers (mostly university natural sounds and remote ambient sensing project managers) for making possible/practical remote field project recording logistics using commonly available deck models that you and I also might own.

So, what I offer for field recorder powering is the most reliable, lowest weight/size, and longest running solutions currently available on the market that's NOT really comparable with cheap, low reliability, short runtime products meant for different user requirements, and mostly useful, and well worth the cost for those doing film/video/project sound and nature/natural sounds documentary recording in remote places where very long running times, and/or recharging batteries is not desired or impractical. 

[Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)]

^ The last 2 replies are more of what I'm looking for.

I'm glad I'm not a professional...$250 for a piece of plastic that holds batteries seems like a lot to me.

[dsteinwedel]

It would be nice if the OP posted again with what is most important to him; size, weight, length of charge/battery capacity. etc.

Yes, it probably would. I need a combination of size, weight, and capacity. The battery needs to fit inside a PortaBrace RM-Multi bag and it needs to share that space with a 191 Matrix box--hence it needs to be fairly small. A running time of 4 hours will suffice while 6-8 would be excellent. Charge time is not that much of an issue. Also, I don't need to use the FR2 to power the mic (most of the time), as my main mic has its own power supply that will run off a 9v.

At this point I'm leaning towards the Battery Geek solution. They seem to offer the best cost/size/charge ratio. I really like that they are slim (less than an inch) and could probably fit with the Matrix box in the RM-Multi bag (though I will have to do some measuring/mockups to make sure). Add to that no need for additional connectors/converters (and the ability to swap connectors for other devices) and it becomes a very useful little powering solution. It's very good to know people here have been using them successfully on this machine.

The D-sled is an interesting solution and I can see how it would be very practical for a lot of situations. However the total cost is a bit high for me because it would also require the purchase of new batteries (at least 24 rechargeable D-cells and a new charger) and because keeping extra battery sets around would be a bit of a pain. At best (a static location) it would require two distinct spaces in my extra gear bag to keep charged and expended batteries separate. At worst (I'm on the go all day) it means I've got at least 10 extra batteries (8 + 2 backups) rattling around somewhere on my person. Finally, if just one battery fails, it means time spent fiddling with a multi-meter to find and replace the culprit.

Unfortunately, the 10-14-100 is on backorder. The Tekkeon is still interesting but I'm willing to pay more for a solution that has been proven to work rather than risk being a guinea pig. Any other suggestions in the meantime are still welcome--but if nothing else comes up shortly I'm probably taking the BatteryGeek route.

Thanks for all the help and insight!

--Dave

[flipp]

From the chart on the BG 9-12-66 page http://www.batterygeek.net/BG-9-12-66-Portable-DVD-Player-Battery-p/9-12-66_batterygeek.htm it looks like the 9-12-66 would meet all your requirements as long as you could wait for it to come off backorder. I suggest calling BG to see if they have a better idea of when it will be available again. The 4-6 week estimate on the website isn't very helpful and for all I know it could have been stating that for 3 weeks or more.

[guysonic]

The D-sled is an interesting solution and I can see how it would be very practical for a lot of situations. However the total cost is a bit high for me because it would also require the purchase of new batteries (at least 24 rechargeable D-cells and a new charger) and because keeping extra battery sets around would be a bit of a pain. At best (a static location) it would require two distinct spaces in my extra gear bag to keep charged and expended batteries separate. At worst (I'm on the go all day) it means I've got at least 10 extra batteries (8 + 2 backups) rattling around somewhere on my person. Finally, if just one battery fails, it means time spent fiddling with a multi-meter to find and replace the culprit.

--Dave

To be clear, the D-sled is ONLY meant for D akaline cells having 2-4 times the power capacity at about half the weight of rechargeable D cells.  So having additional fresh cells to carry around is not needed in most cases unless needing weeks of running time available.

[dsteinwedel]

To be clear, the D-sled is ONLY meant for D akaline cells having 2-4 times the power capacity at about half the weight of rechargeable D cells.  So having additional fresh cells to carry around is not needed in most cases unless needing weeks of running time available.

That's curious. I've found that an FR2, 8 AA alkaline cells will give me a solid 1/2 hour of recording time, maybe 45 minutes. According to good old Wikipedia, D-cells have about 4-5 times the capacity of their AA brethren. Given that, how can D-cells give weeks of running time?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_battery_sizes

--Dave

[guysonic]

The smaller the size of an alkaline cell, the more power is lost due to internal cell resistance. 

AA cell is small and has MAX ~2.2 AMPS capacity working best with < 1/4 ampere loads.  D cell is many times the AA cell size working best with <2 ampere loads and has ~16-18 amperes of MAX capacity.

So for recorder powering loads, little power is being lost inside the D cell as compared with a lot of power being lost (heating) inside the much small AA cell.

[dsteinwedel]

So it's not a 1/1 plot, but more of a curve. Good to know. Thanks Guy!

--Dave

[Red Boink]

I've been using 2 fr2 decks with NiMh 4000mah NP-1 cells.  In tandem with internal batteries - 2700ma nimh sanyo cells - It gives you 8hours easily, and I run with timecode.  The Fr2 can use both external and internal seamlessly.

You don't have to spend a lot to get NP-1 form factor into your mix.  You can get a 4000mah nimh battery for about $59.99 shipped on ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/12V-4A-Battery-for-Sony-NP-1-NP-1A-NP-1B-NP-1SB_W0QQitemZ140396418040QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBatteries_Chargers?hash=item20b04753f8

You can get an idx single np-1 charger for around $10:  http://cgi.ebay.com/IDX-JSE-23-QUICK-CAMCODER-CHARGER-FOR-NiCd-BATTERY-NEW_W0QQitemZ380212860109QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item588673d4cd

No need to pay the $75 charge for np1>fr2 cable.  Just do an ebay search for an np1 cable so you can cut the np1 cup from.  A 4pin>np1 can be had for around @20, then contact sennheiser and request a dc cable for an HHB md500, which they sell for $14 (last time I bought one last year - fits FR2 power), you may want to get a couple.

Then just cut the 4pin end from the np1 cable, take the cup, match the polarity on the cables, solder them together (don't forget to put a piece of shrink wrap to cover the splices.   and you have a reliable power supply dependable enough for "professional" work for a fraction of the price of alternatives.

Let's see, charger $10, Battery $60, cable $14, np1 cup $20.. for $104 you've got a very dependable power supply in a easy to use form factor.  I've got 6 batteries in rotation and don't have anything but good results.  I use idx lions v-mount for my camera, but the np1s cover all the audio power, and I have an adaptor where I can use two np1s on my camera if needed.  Redundant?  Not when successful results are your mission.

The fr2 portabrace has a pocket on the front that fits the above config well.  If you use the multi pocket, you're going to have lots of room for cables, radio mics, whatever you wish.

Best,

John

[dsteinwedel]

Hey John,

That's all very interesting. One question about chargers and batteries. I'm noticing the batteries come in either NiCd or NiMh variations, as do the chargers. I'm assuming these are not interchangeable... ie if I use NiMh batteries I must also find a NiMh charger?

Thanks!
Dave

[Red Boink]

Most of the np-1 chargers will work with either Nickle Cadmium (NiCad) or Nickle Metal Hydride (NiMh) as they share similar algorithms.  Lithium Ion chargers are unique, although IDX is making a charger that works with all three.  The standards for charging lion are strange, too.  Each manufacturer tries to keep customers by setting up proprietary charging methods.  I use NiMh for NP1s and they work very well.  I have an idx lion charger, but haven't switched yet.  Lithuim ion is better in cold weather.

Here's alink to the IDX website that will give you more breadth.  http://www.idxtek.com/pdf/tech_info/T-005.pdf

look for a pm....

Best,

John

[Chilly Brioschi]

Here is 120wh (12v @ 10aH) of NiMH for $100 or so.
http://www.batteryspace.com/search.aspx?find=RB-HD10R2T-MT
Lasts forever (at least 8 hours), fits in a small fanny pack with room for some foam/Styrofoam for protection (of your legs!)

The FR-2 connector is model: EIAJ RC-5320A Type 4  (Which is 5.5mm OD) Available in St and Rt-angle
Radio Shack used to sell a universal adapter that had one numbered "4", if I remember correctly.

[flipp]

Last week I picked up one of the Tekkeons that was on ebay. Charging it now and don't expect any problems with it powering the FR2. While the Tekkeon comes with adapters (one fits the FR2 well) I'm thinking of ordering a couple of these RA connectors as well as an extra Tekkeon cable and splicing the two so I'll have a dedicated cable for the FR2 and still have a full set of adapters.

http://www.amazon.com/2-1mm-5-5mm-11-2mm-Plug-Cord/dp/B0002KRCRW/ref=pd_cp_e_1

I'll report back after running the FR2 with the Tekkeon.


< no problems running either my FR2 or my FR2LE with the Tekkeon 3450 - my only complaint is the 3450 will not fit in the front pocket of a PB RM-Multi (not the Deluxe) without a right angle plug >

[dsteinwedel]

Just wanted to report back in. I ended up with the BatteryGeek 9-12-66.

http://www.batterygeek.net/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=9-12-66_BatteryGeek&CartID=1

Have had it about a month and couldn't be happier so far. It fits all my criteria (light, small (I love how thin it is), long-lasting). I did some initial tests when I first got it--set it up to the machine, hit record, and let it go. After 6+ hours of recording and between 50-75% battery drain (you only get a 4 part indicator) I threw in the towel and said "Fantastic!" The battery charges for me in around 3 hours. One excellent surprise is that it doesn't run hot--even after hours of use. I guess I just take it for granted after getting used to laptops heating up so much.

Thanks for all your help!

--Dave

[Dustin Moore]

Not quite on topic but does anyone know if the FR-2 will be ok with +15volts on the regular
power input port? I have a bunch of other gear that wants +15.

Thanks,

[woodbine]

latest firmware has a 7.2v setting, specifically designed to allow RC batteries to connect via 12v connector. I have large capacity RC battery, getting about 4.5-5hours continuous reording with phantom.