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Gear / Technical Help => Remote Power => Topic started by: dolphinsmile on May 19, 2007, 04:51:17 PM

Title: 18 volt portable power
Post by: dolphinsmile on May 19, 2007, 04:51:17 PM
need it to power one of my preamps, when i dont have access to elec outlet. does anyone know who makes one i can plug into my ac input?
Title: Re: 18 volt portable power
Post by: JD on May 19, 2007, 04:56:35 PM
I recently grabbed one of these to power my sonosax sx-m2.

http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1529 (http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1529)

I'm running some tests now to see how long it will last in the field. I'll report back with some run times later today.
Title: Re: 18 volt portable power
Post by: gratefulphish on May 19, 2007, 06:09:42 PM
I highly recommend batterygeek.net, and their batteries (no affilliation, other than as a very satisfied customer).  Their batteries are a little more than some others, but they seem to run forever, and charge extremely quickly.  Link: http://www.batterygeek.net/Laptop_Tablet_PC_Battery_Packs_s/1.htm
Title: Re: 18 volt portable power
Post by: Nick's Picks on May 20, 2007, 08:37:05 AM
gawddamn!
http://www.batterygeek.net/140Wh_Portable_Power_Station_PPS140_3V_28V_p/pps140_batterygeek.htm

now that is a battery!
Title: Re: 18 volt portable power
Post by: rocksuitcase on May 20, 2007, 11:01:44 AM
gawddamn!
http://www.batterygeek.net/140Wh_Portable_Power_Station_PPS140_3V_28V_p/pps140_batterygeek.htm

now that is a battery!
Man, that thing is wild!  Loks like a good festi battery for use in the campground and as a backup for recording.
Title: Re: 18 volt portable power
Post by: guysonic on May 20, 2007, 11:17:12 AM
gawddamn!
http://www.batterygeek.net/140Wh_Portable_Power_Station_PPS140_3V_28V_p/pps140_batterygeek.htm

now that is a battery!

These $100 - $400 costing types of external battery power systems can be quite nice for those with regular use requirements. 

Likely they use a series of lithium cells inside with a use/shelf life of about 2 years before capacity is 80% or less.  Most owners may get their money's worth with up to 3 years service life before usefulness drops off too much where either the internal cell pack needs replacement, or another entire system must be purchased.   

$350 buys 140 watt 28 volt maximum output rated system.  No listing on actual voltage of lithium cell battery pack inside, but seems this device steps internal battery voltage down,  and I'm thinking likely maximum output voltage is close to actual internal battery voltage so an efficient step-down switching regulator with 75-93% efficiency is expected at work inside. 

Lets do some math.  Actual internal cell pack might be 28 volts, and this divided into 140 watts gives 5 amperes for one hour capacity.  Since the maximum output current rating of the supply IS 4.5 amperes, this gives additional evidence of internal we are looking at 8 lithium cells in series each outputting 3.6 to 4.2 volts.   

Assuming switching regulator efficiency is 85%, then we have ~120 watts worth of useful output power with a new internal battery capacity at 100%.   

An application like running a SD 700 series HD recorder requires 10.6 to 18 volts external supply to keep snap-on camcorder battery charged and run the deck. 

(http://www.sonicstudios.com/744tpwrd.jpg)
(http://www.sonicstudios.com/744tpwrd.jpg)

As the specifications in the manual shows, determining power draw is difficult because of all the variables in how the deck is being used and the charge state of the snap-on NP deck battery.

Assuming the deck is drawing 10 watts, then doing the math indicates 12 hours is likely maximum run time before the 744T's internal battery takes over.

Alternative tact to powering SD 744T (or other SD700 series) for remote field work where AC power for charge-up is not practical is use (12) non-rechargeable 14+ ampere rated alkaline D cells in series.  Since this kind of cell has a 1.5 to 0.8 volt rating as capacity is used up, let's assume a 1.2 volt cell (average cell voltage) with 14 amp capacity x 12 cells to give this pack a 200 WATT RATING! 

Advantage of this type of power system is it NEVER GETS OLD in a few years like rechargeable types.  And IN THE FIELD replacement of common D cells is ALWAYS AVAILABLE FOR THE 12+ YEARS lifespan for this type of supply.  An example of a ruggedized long lasting cell pack for the Edirol R4 series is below.  SAME BD-8 looking supply (BD-8 PRO)for the R-4 PRO deck has 4-pin XLR connector instead of dummy cell connections.

(http://www.sonicstudios.com/bd8s.jpg)

Pack suitable for the 744T has 12 D cells, so is 1-cell length longer in size than BD-8 , and has Hirose power connector that fits SD700 series decks.

These alternative power systems are shown at: www.sonicstudios.com/batsys98.htm (http://www.sonicstudios.com/batsys98.htm) 
Title: Re: 18 volt portable power
Post by: gratefulphish on May 20, 2007, 04:38:12 PM
It is hard to even consider comparing.  There are other models that cost a lot less, that can easily run this pre.  This battery http://www.batterygeek.net/Batterygeek_15_21_118_External_Laptop_Battery_p/15-21-118_batterygeek.htm costs $169, one time.  It weighs roughly 1.7 lbs.  Twelve D cells, weigh almost four pounds, and I am sure would hit that mark, with the weight of the sled included.  12 D Cells, at Costco cost at least $10. So, after using the battery for more than 15 times or so, it is not only cost efficient, but weighs well less than half as much, as well as being about a third of the size.  Oh, and you forgot to mention that the cost of your plastic battery sled is $225-250, which is more than the entire most expensive battery option from batterygeek, and then you still have to buy the batteries.  I really don't know who you sell those to.
Title: Re: 18 volt portable power
Post by: Nick's Picks on May 20, 2007, 06:11:11 PM
I liked that thing because it had all those various voltages...AND a USB output that carried 5v.  Perfect!  Especially if you are running something like V3>MT
Title: Re: 18 volt portable power
Post by: gratefulphish on May 20, 2007, 06:39:05 PM
That is one hell of a battery, and is obviously useful for just about any device out there.  My response was mainly directed at guysonic, and his suggestion that you would rather be dragging around a sled of 12 D batteries, rather than one of the batterygeeks.  I love my 10-14-88, which I am having a cable made to run my 722.
Title: Re: 18 volt portable power
Post by: guysonic on May 20, 2007, 10:36:40 PM
It is hard to even consider comparing.  There are other models that cost a lot less, that can easily run this pre.  This battery http://www.batterygeek.net/Batterygeek_15_21_118_External_Laptop_Battery_p/15-21-118_batterygeek.htm costs $169, one time.  It weighs roughly 1.7 lbs.  Twelve D cells, weigh almost four pounds, and I am sure would hit that mark, with the weight of the sled included.  12 D Cells, at Costco cost at least $10. So, after using the battery for more than 15 times or so, it is not only cost efficient, but weighs well less than half as much, as well as being about a third of the size.  Oh, and you forgot to mention that the cost of your plastic battery sled is $225-250, which is more than the entire most expensive battery option from batterygeek, and then you still have to buy the batteries.  I really don't know who you sell those to.



To make easier comparison lets consider solution for ONLY SD744T deck using the largest Batterygeek $499 200 watt (but ~170 watt output at 85% efficiency) model weighting 4.4 pounds that would need $170 -$225 every 2-3 years for replacement battery to maintain capacity.

(http://www.sonicstudios.com/bg200wus.jpg)

For apples to apples power capacity comparison Compare the above model directly with BD-12 at 4 pounds, higher 200 watt power output per charge, and costing about half that of the Batterygeek (nearest equivalent) product. 

The BD-12 cost difference buys you 350+ hours of worth of operating time using D cells, so at least a few years worth for most people.  AND the BD-12 is still LIKE NEW after a few years, and will remain this way for at least 12 years!  With the Batterygeek product, you would have to REPLACE THE ~$190 BATTERY EVERY 2-3 YEARS regardless of using it or not to have this device working as new. 

With the BD-12 new condition is always ONLY having new D batteries, and ONLY for each period of 20+ hours of operating time, so cost of BD-12 makes EVEN MORE sense after a few years of owning as additional maintenance cost is ONLY what YOU NEED at the time.

This same type of 'apples to apples' comparison to the 'controversial' C/D cell solution is possible with R-4(PRO), MT, and SD700 deck models verses the equivalent (output power) of a Batterygeek type product. 

And YES, my 'controversial' battery solutions for MT, R4 (PRO), and SD700 decks ARE well accepted and appreciated.

These products sell mostly to nature, documentary, and film sound professional recordists who sometimes spend a bit of time outside the power grids, and/or require the longer running time, higher reliability (even after many years of field use) than is possible with Batterygeek type solutions.

I think you'll find the C/D alkaline cell solutions make a lot more sense with direct comparisons with having lower weight, more output power, more reliable with 100% consistent power, and costing far less over a few years of ownership than the existing (Batterygeek type) rechargeable solutions.


Title: Re: 18 volt portable power
Post by: gratefulphish on May 20, 2007, 11:40:30 PM
It seems as if you are picking and choosing facts and stats, just to support your conclusion.  Anyone who needs the 18V can get by with one of the $169 models from batterygeek, which even assuming your 85% efficiency, is going to deliver 110 watts, which by your calculations, should provide more than 10 hours of operating time.  It is pretty rare, outside of major festival situations, where anyone has to worry about running that long, without finding an electrical outlet.  So now we have spent $169, and we can use it again and again.  Let's say I tape 6 shows a month @ 3 hours per show.  I need to recharge the battery geek once, and I need to buy another $10 set of D batteries for your sled.

So year one cost batterygeek=$169  guysonic= $275 for sled + $120 for 10 sets of D batteries = $395
    year two cost batterygeek= $0    guysonic=  $120 for 10 sets of D batteries

So assuming that the batterygeek is just going to die after two years, total cost of ownership is $169 vs. $515 for your sled.  Oh, and the batterygeek is only 1.7 lbs, not 4 lbs.  And it is less than half the size at 26 cubic inches vs. 53 cubic inches.  So even if I have to buy a new battery every two years, my cost is $169 vs. $240 for just D cells.  I don't know, let's see, less cost, less weight, and less size.  Hmmm, I wonder what I am going to choose.
Title: Re: 18 volt portable power
Post by: Nick's Picks on May 21, 2007, 06:56:14 AM
it would only be apples and apples if the battery you compared to also had modular cells, no?
I'm not knocking your setup....but certainly it is not superior to EVERY product out there under the sun.
besides, tapers dont use logic.  its worth the extra dough for many people just because;
a.  its flat and fits in a bag real nice
b. nice lights to tell you its drainage
c. ability to change voltages along w/the changing of gear over time.
Title: Re: 18 volt portable power
Post by: Nick's Picks on May 21, 2007, 06:58:57 AM
again...i'm not trying to knock anyones product here.  I think they are all awesome batteries.  and there are certainly advantages to a giant sled...as i'm sure you can go into the jungle w/a shitload of cells if you wanted...but you can't plug in and "recharge" at the closest Banyan tree, now can we?
Title: Re: 18 volt portable power
Post by: Sanjay on May 21, 2007, 10:24:53 AM
Also for the 7xx series, apparently you missed the whole thread about the dummy Li-Ion battery, where you can run one of those standard 9v wal-mart batts to power the thing for a healthy amount of time.

"D" sled's?  come on, that's a product of a bygone era.  5 pounds + and useful for about one show. 

Nobody wants to buy batteries that you have to toss out after each show.  I know i'm not the only one who cringes at filling up a landfill with those toxic things, as well as hates a $10 investment each time I want to tape something.

oh yeah this is spot on:

  Oh, and you forgot to mention that the cost of your plastic battery sled is $225-250, which is more than the entire most expensive battery option from batterygeek, and then you still have to buy the batteries.  I really don't know who you sell those to.
Title: Re: 18 volt portable power
Post by: oleg on May 21, 2007, 11:50:24 PM
http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=899
alot of choices
d- sells - only in my bad dreams again :-)
Title: Re: 18 volt portable power
Post by: Todd R on May 22, 2007, 10:42:27 AM
Also for the 7xx series, apparently you missed the whole thread about the dummy Li-Ion battery, where you can run one of those standard 9v wal-mart batts to power the thing for a healthy amount of time.

Um, yes, I did miss that. :P   Got a link to that discussion?  I did a search and all I came up with was a Team 722 thread where Bean posted a link to an ebay auction.   Unfortunately, the ebay link is now dead.  Any help on how to make up a dummy cell using the walmart batts would be much appreciated.  :)
Title: Re: 18 volt portable power
Post by: Sanjay on May 22, 2007, 11:33:06 AM
Also for the 7xx series, apparently you missed the whole thread about the dummy Li-Ion battery, where you can run one of those standard 9v wal-mart batts to power the thing for a healthy amount of time.

Um, yes, I did miss that. :P   Got a link to that discussion?  I did a search and all I came up with was a Team 722 thread where Bean posted a link to an ebay auction.   Unfortunately, the ebay link is now dead.  Any help on how to make up a dummy cell using the walmart batts would be much appreciated.  :)

Ha, that wasn't aimed at you

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,53294.0.html

thank moke for that bit of genius in that thread!

EDIT:  It was the wal mart 7.4 volt battery, same as the 9v's but output different.  I think they're easier to find.
Title: Re: 18 volt portable power
Post by: twatts (pants are so over-rated...) on May 22, 2007, 11:53:50 AM
Dig it:  http://www.shoey.com/blog/index.php/2006/11/tascam-hd-p2-rechargable-battery-system/

T
Title: Re: 18 volt portable power
Post by: Nick's Picks on May 22, 2007, 08:22:35 PM
freakin' brilliant!
Title: Re: 18 volt portable power
Post by: Nick's Picks on May 22, 2007, 08:24:15 PM
good way to make fake R9 AA cells...> lead wire > D cells.  Just one pair of NiMH's would run that deck for 3 days.