Become a Site Supporter and Never see Ads again!

Author Topic: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)  (Read 188961 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline colargol

  • Trade Count: (10)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 176
Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #150 on: February 10, 2010, 12:41:38 PM »
Hi!

Just tried my M10 for the first time last night, it works like a dream.... Got that good taping feeling I haven't had since I stopped using my old M1. Now if Sony could just come out with one that has a nice little remote with levels, I would be completely satisfied. If not, I think I might actually stay with the M10 for quite a while...

I know it's a matter of personal preference, but in my point of view, having the opportunity to adjust levels easily without being concerned with the hold button, is great...

-Colargol
MK4s/MK41s > nbob actives > tinybox/babynbox > M10/A10

Offline fmaderjr

  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1966
Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #151 on: February 10, 2010, 03:39:03 PM »
I love the M10 too, but I got no good taper feeling using my D100 (an M1 without defeatable SCMS). It took forever to load a tape, was a nuisance to get the recording into the computer), and every 2 years like clockwork I'd start getting dropouts and have to pay Pro-Digital $200+ for repairs. I got my M1) for $240 (after cash back & E-Bay bucks)  and don't expect to ever have to repair it. It will probably work for years and then I'll probably just junk it.

Personally I don't care about a remote. No need to check levels if recording in 24 bit (at least after checking an early peak or 2 to verify they're peaking around -12 dB or so).
AT853's (all caps)/CM-300 Franken Naks (CP-1,2,3)/JBMod Nak 700's (CP-701,702) > Tascam DR-680
Or Sonic Studios DSM-6 > M10

Offline Ozpeter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1401
Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #152 on: February 11, 2010, 05:16:55 AM »
I came across http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=124639.msg1696395#msg1696395 whree Dogmusic uploaded a short bit of organ and drums duo, and I've reduced it to an mp3 as it was, and also with 8dB of widening applied.  The two versions are in the zip file below, only a 1MB download.

As with the piano sample, I personally think it opens out the sound considerably.  Note again that I am not using any eq, just widening, but the wider sound emerges with much more sparkle - sounds "righter" to me, but I wasn't there at the time!

http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/22/1451533/Anderson.zip

Hope you don't mind me monkeying with your original sample, Dogmusic.  Thanks for posting it.

Offline Ozpeter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1401
Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #153 on: February 11, 2010, 04:51:51 PM »
I've thought through what's going on here. 

Omnidirectional mics are more omnidirectional at low frequencies than at high frequencies.  So a closely-spaced pair of omnis, even if mounted at say 90 degrees to each other, will obtain very little stereo separation at low to mid frequencies.   But at higher frequencies, each mic is more sensitive to sounds arriving from in front of the mic than at the side (the published Sony spec for these mics clearly shows that).  So the M10 records higher frequencies with greater stereo separation than lower frequencies.

So, using an MS VST plugin, if you separate the side signal from the mid signal and listen to these individually, the side signal (the difference between left and right) is much brighter than the mid signal because it's derived from the on-axis sounds arriving at each mic.  When you process the mid and the side back to normal left and right, but with extra side to widen the image, you're adding more of the high frequency on-axis (per mic mounted at 90 degrees) component, and thus the whole sound is brighter.

Feeding an M10 recording through a stereo image display (without widening) you can see clearly that the HF components spread out significantly more than LF components.

In an accurate stereo image, if you had a kick drum and a cymbal at say 45 degrees to the recorder, they would sound as if they were both in the same place.  The M10 would make them sound like the kick drum was more in the middle and the cymbal was more accurately loacated at the side.  Emphasise the width using an MS plugin and the kick drum will tend to stay where it was, and the cymbal will tend to move further sideways, and will sound brighter.

So, a bit of a question mark hangs over the accuracy of the M10's stereo imaging (with the built in mics) at least in theory, but that doesn't mean that it won't sound pleasant enough in practice.

Mine should arrive today - the "P" model.

Offline illconditioned

  • Trade Count: (9)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2996
Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #154 on: February 11, 2010, 05:13:53 PM »
Another cool idea would be to put a baffle between the mics.  I made a crude one using some heavy rubber-back carpeting, approx 8" diameter circle.

I've since moved away from that because I don't (really) like the sound of the internal mics.  They sound good, and have very low noise.  They just don't sound *great* like some of the other mics I'm using.  If I'm recording music and I want others to listen, I want better sound.

I think where the M10 works is for ambient recording, like family visiting, children playing, etc.  In these applications the low self noise can be a real advantage.

  Richard
Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

Sample recordings at: http://www.soundmann.com.

Offline Ozpeter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1401
Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #155 on: February 12, 2010, 09:08:57 AM »
After a few hours playing with the M10(P) I'm on the whole impressed - it's a very well thought out piece of kit and the controls and display are a pleasure to use. 

Some minor quibbles - I'm very surprised that there's no margin reset button nor peak hold setting - both margins and peaks reset automatically after about one second.  There should be a menu option to set the peak hold time, with infinite hold provided for, and with the record button acting as a reset button (it currently has no function once you are recording).

The auto level feature is actually a preset level (about '3' on the knob) and it appears to turn on the limiter.  So that's good insofar as there's no pumping of background noise - when things are quiet it doesn't raise the level, it simply rapidly limits any peaks.  But as the preset level is somewhat conservative, if you are recording something quiet you're going to have to up the level in post production.

The backlight can be turned on (for the preset length of time) simply by pushing down the power button.  However, don't do that for too long else it will happily switch off during recording.  They should have required one to deliberately press "stop", then turn off.

If replaying, and you stop or pause for more than 10 minutes, the M10 will go to sleep but then wake up at the exact point you left it.  Once turned off, it comes back on at the start of the last played track.

If you put nested folders into the recorder from your PC, it "flattens" them into a single list of all folders (which is fine by me).

Transfer speed seems a bit on the slow side but I might try optimising it for speed rather than for quick removal, in Windows.  [Edit - tried that and it seemed to make no difference.  Transferring mp3 tracks to the recorder runs at about 3.5MB/s, from the recorder at 5MB/s]

And those built in mics... there's no getting away from the fact that stereo imaging is poor.  I'm not quite sure what Sony had in mind when they specified the mics.  Sound quality is good and low noise, but the imaging would preclude doing anything much with the recording.  Sound pickup is much the same whether you talk (or play) towards the display face or the front edge, or even from the rear.  This means that it's very forgiving about which way you point it, but unless the sound source is very close, stereo separation is rather limited, and you are likely to pick up a lot of what you don't want (eg room acoustic or audience round you).  Personally I'd be more likely to make serious use of a Zoom H2 built in mic recording.

The "P" model has a dead kitten windscreen and a carrying bag included, but otherwise I think it's identical to the normal version.  Colour is matte dark grey, close to black.

All in all, a very sexy and pro-looking piece of kit, which will probably take the place of my RH-1 Hi-MD recorder (and others) unless I particularly need the tiny size of that one.

Offline mloewen

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 120
Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #156 on: February 12, 2010, 08:32:03 PM »
 I use the display button to turn the light on . But with the battery life I prefer to just leave the the light always on, less chance of noise from handling it.

Offline Ozpeter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1401
Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #157 on: February 13, 2010, 12:35:46 AM »
On the naturerecordists list I've seen a suggestion that the M10's stereo image can usefully be manipulated using separate eq of the mid and side.  For instance, reducing the level of the low frequencies in the centre of the M10 sound would also have the effect of increasing the proportion of side channel heard, thus making for a wider sound.  And at the same time one could boost the low frequencies in the side channel if the brighter sound isn't to your taste.

Here's a link to a VST plugin (free) which can be used to manipulate the eq of mid and side channels -

http://rekkerd.org/matthew-lindsay-ncl-phase-eq/

- you'd probably find that a basic MS widening VST would then not be required, but google for Voxengo MSED if you do still need a free one.

[Edit - if you don't want to read the manual for the Matthew Lindsay VST, simply select the "MS Enhancement" preset and you'll be impressed right away].

As for the keeping the backlight on all the time - heh, indeed one has to develop a different attitude to battery life with this recorder!
« Last Edit: February 13, 2010, 01:40:00 AM by Ozpeter »

Offline CatScan

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 23
Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #158 on: February 13, 2010, 06:49:19 AM »
On the naturerecordists list I've seen a suggestion that the M10's stereo image can usefully be manipulated using separate eq of the mid and side.

Here's a link to a VST plugin (free) which can be used to manipulate the eq of mid and side channels -

http://rekkerd.org/matthew-lindsay-ncl-phase-eq/

- you'd probably find that a basic MS widening VST would then not be required, but google for Voxengo MSED if you do still need a free one.

Is there anything similar around which works for Mac computers?
The above only works with Windows.

Offline Ozpeter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1401
Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #159 on: February 13, 2010, 07:12:15 AM »
I guess you'd have to rummage through the KvR or Gersic VST databases.  I think freebies tend to be more PC than Mac however...

Meanwhile, a small 'discovery' - to my surprise the T.mark button functions with mp3 files. Mp3 files don't normally allow markers to be included (in other hardware and software).

Looking at the innards of the such a marked mp3 file, I saw a reference to SFMarkers, or the like, which prompted me to install the Sound Forge software included with the recorder.  And indeed, it shows the markers I created in the mp3 file.  I've got no particular plan to use Sound Forge in preference to any of the other audio software that I have, but if I did want to record in mp3 and did want to use markers, then I might well use SF for that purpose.

Offline chrise

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 40
Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #160 on: February 13, 2010, 07:16:16 AM »
I use the display button to turn the light on .

I tend not to do that, as it cycles the time readout between elasped/remaining/clock/whatever, which I don't want.  FWIW I've just been pressing any of the main buttons which do nothing during record.  That is, any of:

- up/fwd
- down/back
- record
- play

These are also abit easier to press quietly than the little buttons under the display.


Quote
But with the battery life I prefer to just leave the the light always on, less chance of noise from handling it.

Good point.  I wonder whether the battery still lasts (relatively) well with light-always-on.  Will try.

Had mine 2 weeks and recorded a fair bit.  The battery indicator is still showing completely full :)

Offline chrise

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 40
Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #161 on: February 13, 2010, 10:19:15 AM »

I'm very surprised that there's no margin reset button nor peak hold setting - both margins and peaks reset automatically after about one second.  There should be a menu option to set the peak hold time, with infinite hold provided for


Yep - that would be nice!

Offline CatScan

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 23
Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #162 on: February 13, 2010, 03:54:41 PM »
I have some problems with folders on my PCM-M10. According to the manual you can create your own recording folders in addition to (and instead???) of the existing 10 preset folders that came with the unit.
Well, I create new folders when connected to my Mac, but no folders show up when the unit is disconnected and I scroll through by pressing the "folder" button and up/down.

I hope I haven't messed things up, because in the hope of deleting the "FOLDER01" etc. I deleted them all including the "MSGLISTA.MSF" file once. After that I reformatted the unit. I also deleted the .EXE file that was included inside the unit (since I don't use Windows I had no use for it).
If I've cause the problems myself, and this is the reason why I can't see my own folders, is there a way to reset the unit?
I have noticed that the files I deleted (except the .EXE file) reappear, so obviously that's some sort of default system. And recording/playback also works fine, but like I said I can't seem to create and use my own folders.

Offline Ozpeter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1401
Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #163 on: February 13, 2010, 03:59:48 PM »
The only folders I have created have been made by dragging an mp3 folder tree into the unit.  But if I'm in one of those folders and then press 'record' the M10 switches to the first of its own folders.  So maybe folders you create yourself are set "read only" - and if they contain no files it would then be logical for them not to show up.

Short answer - try creating (dragging in) folders already containing files.

Offline CatScan

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 23
Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #164 on: February 13, 2010, 04:09:11 PM »
Aha! ยจ
Just tried it -Yes, the folders I created (while connected to my computer) show up only if they already contain an audio file.
I was instead hoping to create a bunch of folders (e.g. "Lectures", "Environmental", "Notes", "Music" etc.) which would help me have things better organized when doing my own recordings.

But if I select one of those folders I created with a file in them, then press "Rec" the recording jumps to "FOLDER01" instead!
So the only place you can record your own stuff is in one of those 10 folders, and you can't rename them?
« Last Edit: February 13, 2010, 04:15:18 PM by CatScan »

 

RSS | Mobile
Page created in 0.104 seconds with 44 queries.
© 2002-2024 Taperssection.com
Powered by SMF