Topic: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)

[kingtut38]

I have been doing some pseudo-binaural recordings with my h4n and m10.  I am a hobbyist and amateur so I'm still learning about recording, audio, etc...  I initially wasn't impressed with the sony's sound.  I did think the omni mics noise levels were excellent though.  At first I missed the warm sound of the h4n and posted a question asking others what their opinions were.  Since then I've made several other recordings with the m10.

I initially had my m10 set to high sensitivity.  With my Church binaurals and my binaurals from pipmics.com my was recording setting was around 1.5 to 2.  This is to record movement, spoken word, and ambiance.  I really did not think the m10  sounded anywhere close to my h4n.  Maybe more accurate but not more pleasing and realistic.

I've since changed my setting to low sensitivity and cranked the m10 up to 4 or 5, with no appreciable noise difference I might add, and it sounds much better.  Smooth, realistic, and focused reaching the same levels.  I'm used to my outboard preamps having a sweet spot but I was under the assumption that these recorders would sound close to the same at most settings with noise being the major effect one way or the other. 

Anyway, sounds great now.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

The Sony recorder units are the best of them all.  Sound Devices 702, way over-rated for the money I spent on it.  The Sony D50 and M10 make just as good or better sounding recordings and have much better user interface controls.

You're the first I've heard say the d50 is as good or better sounding than the 7xx.  Same for the m10.  I look forward to hearing that difference in a recording.  On what sort of source material do you base your conclusions?

I was just reading some of your older posts, and I see back in May you overloaded your 7xx with 4060's.   Were you in normal or low gain mode?   Have you tried them in line-in mode?

Also the DPA 4060's are so sensitive that they will overload my Sound Devices 702 preamo stage with loud band music even when I set the Sound Devices 702 gain level to the absolute lowest level it can go to!

[chrise]

did some testing with the M10. getting really low levels. going mic in plug in power off. i switched mic sens to high and that helped. still very low levels. gain is up to 10 and just reaching -12db with home stereo cranked.  again, the setup is nak700's>M10. the 700's are running on the 6V internal batterys.

Amazing - those must be some truly insensitive mics!

[listener2]

Anyone using battery powered mics directly into the M10? Mic-in is the way to go I guess.

ts, I am not sure exactly what you are asking but if you mean a mic that has its own battery power and does not require PIP from the recorder, I just tested the Sony M10 with my Audio Technica AT-8022 stereo condenser mic plugged into the Mic Input jack with Sony M10 mic plug-in-power "off".  I had tons of gain with it.  I only set the record level control to "4" to match the same level I get with the M10's internal built-in mics set at "3" recording a fairly loud home theater stereo system playing jazz station from my cable service music channel.

I think you must have had your M10 record gain set to automatic gain control = "on".  Turn it off and you should get much mic input gain.  (unless of course your particular self powered mics are extremely low output or defective?)

[guysonic]

The M10 (like most small DAT/MD/flash decks) has ONLY one really good sounding gain setting in "LOW" or -20 dB (same sensitivity setting named differently). 

Using any of these in (20 dB) boosted mode (High" or 0 dB atten setting) operates the mic input in an inaccurate and overload sensitive manner, but some may require this if using 16 bit depth, recording voice lectures at a great distance using a very low output dynamic type mic, and not caring one bit about the recording quality.

[fmaderjr]

The M10 (like most small DAT/MD/flash decks) has ONLY one really good sounding gain setting in "LOW" or -20 dB (same sensitivity setting named differently). 

Using any of these in (20 dB) boosted mode (High" or 0 dB atten setting) operates the mic input in an inaccurate and overload sensitive manner, but some may require this if using 16 bit depth, recording voice lectures at a great distance using a very low output dynamic type mic, and not caring one bit about the recording quality.

I didn't realize that. I thought a minus -20 dB setting was actually using an attenuator rather than that the 0 dB setting was boosted.

I assume this applies to the -12 dB setting of the Marantz PDM-620 as well (which also has a -24 setting)? People have reported good results using the -12 db to record loud music (maybe when using less sensitive mics like the Church Audio), but if its better to use -24 it would be good to know. 

I very rarely use mic input on a recorder, but would like to try the 620 for that due to it's higher plug in power voltage than most recorders.

[ts]

Anyone using battery powered mics directly into the M10? Mic-in is the way to go I guess.

ts, I am not sure exactly what you are asking but if you mean a mic that has its own battery power and does not require PIP from the recorder, I just tested the Sony M10 with my Audio Technica AT-8022 stereo condenser mic plugged into the Mic Input jack with Sony M10 mic plug-in-power "off".  I had tons of gain with it.  I only set the record level control to "4" to match the same level I get with the M10's internal built-in mics set at "3" recording a fairly loud home theater stereo system playing jazz station from my cable service music channel.

I think you must have had your M10 record gain set to automatic gain control = "on".  Turn it off and you should get much mic input gain.  (unless of course your particular self powered mics are extremely low output or defective?)

M10 set to manual. and yes mics do have a low output. not defective.

[kingtut38]

I was also unaware of the sensitivity characteristics of the mic input.  I had assumed it was an attenuator as well.  I guess that explains why my recordings are sounding a lot more natural now on the "low" setting.

[Todd R]

The Sony recorder units are the best of them all.  Sound Devices 702, way over-rated for the money I spent on it.  The Sony D50 and M10 make just as good or better sounding recordings and have much better user interface controls.

You're the first I've heard say the d50 is as good or better sounding than the 7xx.  Same for the m10.  I look forward to hearing that difference in a recording.  On what sort of source material do you base your conclusions?

I guess I think the D50 is in the same ballpark, but unfortunately I can't say with any certainty.

I had both the 722 and the 702, but outside of a handful of recordings done 7xx directly, I mainly recorded with V3> 7xx.  I probably did almost all my 722 recordings with V3 (digital) > 722 since I liked the V3 and didn't trust that I'd prefer the 722 A/D over the V3.

By the time I downgraded from 722 > 702, I started recording a lot of shows with V3 (analog) > 702.  There are probably a number of shows I also did a back up of V3 (digital) > D50 so I could dig up some good comps of the V3 A/D stage vs the 702 A/D.  But I never recorded V3 (analog) > D50.   Very stupid -- wish I had while I had all that equipment.

Anyway, to the point, I ditched the V3 and 702, got a PSP2, Oade R44 and a pair of Gefells.  So for 2ch I changed from V3 (analog) > 702 to PSP2 > Sony D50.  Too many variables changing at once, but I like the PSP2 > D50 combo at least as much as the V3 > 702 combo.  Some things about the new combo better, some not as good.  In a blind test I have no idea which recorder + A/D I'd like better, the D50 or the 702, but the D50 does have a very nice A/D stage. A tad on the darker side, esp compared to the V3 A/D, but very nice nonetheless.  I've had the SBM1, modSBM1, Apogee AD500e, Lunatec V3, as well as the internal A/D of the 7xx recorders, and the D50 A/D definitely ranks up there -- no slouch for sure.  (Oh, and owned the G-P ADC20 and used the Zefiro in-box a number of times, those A/D don't even make the ranking. )

[chrise]

M10 set to manual. and yes mics do have a low output. not defective.

I assume you mean *those particular mics* have a low output. 

(The M10 registers much higher levels with the  mics I use)

[it-goes-to-eleven]

The M10 (like most small DAT/MD/flash decks) has ONLY one really good sounding gain setting in "LOW" or -20 dB (same sensitivity setting named differently). 

What?  The m10 doesn't sound great on every setting?

That's funny...  And entirely expected.  I keep harping on the importance of testing *what sounds best* but not everyone seems to appreciate the importance of "how it sounds" vs. the specs they read, or what they were told by someone on the internet.

[listener2]

You're the first I've heard say the d50 is as good or better sounding than the 7xx.  Same for the m10.  I look forward to hearing that difference in a recording.  On what sort of source material do you base your conclusions?

I don't have anything I can post up for you to hear at this time.  But to clarify my point, I am not putting down the Sound Devices 702 sound quality per se, but rather in comparison to the cost and all the hupla that Sound Devices units are the very best you can get, the little newer Sony recorders are in the same league and for a lot less money.  And they are smaller and more portable and have longer battery life and better ergonomic controls than the SD 702.  I've held the Sound Devices in the highest regards (and still do) for all the time that I've had it, but when I got these new little Sony units and saw and heard how good they compared to the SD 702, it made me regret spending so much money on a huge unit like that.  But the SD 702 still makes high quality quiet recordings.  I've only used it with the phantom powered mic inputs.  I wrote to Sound Devices support a few times telling them how awkward and touchy their record gain level control knobs were and got no satisfactory answer. The controls are way too touchy to adjust in .1 DB level increments!  Try to change gain for example from 48.5 DB to 48. 9 DB by turning the record level knob.. it takes a little turning motion to wake up the digital detection circuit and then the levels jump in huge increments such that you cannot easily turn it up by .1 DB or even 1 DB without overshoot and undershoot.  Painful and antagonizing.  I don't know if anyone has ever mentioned that aspect of the controls before on any thread! Also the headphone amp output has tons of hiss noise.  It is way too noisey for a high end device that it is categorized as.  Sony's little recorders however don't have these annoyances.

I was just reading some of your older posts, and I see back in May you overloaded your 7xx with 4060's.   Were you in normal or low gain mode?   Have you tried them in line-in mode?

I was in normal gain mode when I noticed how easily the DPA 4060 mics overloaded the SD702 inputs.  I switched the SD702 to low mic gain setting and turned the level control gain all the way as low as it could go in order to record a memorial day parade with marching bands going by.  The record gain level was set as low as it would allow (I think that was about number 9) showing on the display.  I got a very low recording with the loudest peaks of the bass drums marching by at times just below the max clipping point.  So got a good recording of the entire dynamic range but of course the quiet parts of the parade are way, way low.  Normalizing such a recording with wide dynamic range swings just does not cut it.  Hardly improves it.  I have not tried them in line input mode.  From my experiences of many years in audio electronics, I just don't like the change in sound characteristics when feeding low level mics into a line input. Just something about the impedance mismatch probably that messes with the sound.  I'd rather use an external preamp to bring it up to line level and then plug it into the line inputs.  Sounds better that way to me. Anyway, remember, I am not saying that the Sound Devices 702 is not as good sounding nor high quality as the new Sony units, I am just saying in contrasting the units, the Sony units are a way much better buy.  Granted you don't have P48 phantom powering nor balanced inputs (unless you buy an expensive XLR phantom Power adapter, which like the nut that I am, I did too.).

[it-goes-to-eleven]

But to clarify my point, I am not putting down the Sound Devices 702 sound quality per se, but rather in comparison to the cost and all the hupla that Sound Devices units are the very best you can get, the little newer Sony recorders are in the same league and for a lot less money.

You could make that generalization about a lot of small recorders.  Though, in contrast, I find the 7xx very ergonomic, and extremely well thought out and engineered.   I mean, come on; the M10 can't even lock the exposed gain knob, has no digi in or out, etc.  It's a little silly to even compare them seriously.   Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but to suggest the 7xx are "hupla" is just so far from reality.  And in terms of service and support for the m10, there really isn't any.  It's more of a disposable.  I can call the president of Sound Devices and discuss concerns or features with him.

I wrote to Sound Devices support a few times telling them how awkward and touchy their record gain level control knobs were and got no satisfactory answer. The controls are way too touchy to adjust in .1 DB level increments!  Try to change gain for example from 48.5 DB to 48. 9 DB by turning the record level knob.. it takes a little turning motion to wake up the digital detection circuit and then the levels jump in huge increments such that you cannot easily turn it up by .1 DB or even 1 DB without overshoot and undershoot.  I don't know if anyone has ever mentioned that aspect of the controls before on any thread!

I never had issues with getting the gain exactly where I wanted it.  I think it was not mentioned in threads because nobody else has an issue with it.  A change of .1dB?  I wonder why anyone would need that.   How is that requirement now satisfied by the M10?  What other device provides that detailed gain control?  Does the m10 tell you how many db you are adding?  I think you could have set the gain via the menu (and maybe Clink), though I always used the knobs.

Also the headphone amp output has tons of hiss noise.  It is way too noisey for a high end device that it is categorized as.

Tons?  I always found the headphone amp extremely powerful and never had any issues with noise.

I was in normal gain mode when I noticed how easily the DPA 4060 mics overloaded the SD702 inputs.  I switched the SD702 to low mic gain setting and turned the level control gain all the way as low as it could go in order to record a memorial day parade with marching bands going by.  The record gain level was set as low as it would allow (I think that was about number 9) showing on the display.  I got a very low recording with the loudest peaks of the bass drums marching by at times just below the max clipping point.  So got a good recording of the entire dynamic range but of course the quiet parts of the parade are way, way low.

So contrary to your previous post, there was no issue with the recorder.  It sounds like you weren't familiar with the capabilities of the recorder.  The 7xx limiter is also excellent.

I have not tried them in line input mode.  From my experiences of many years in audio electronics, I just don't like the change in sound characteristics when feeding low level mics into a line input. Just something about the impedance mismatch probably that messes with the sound.

Sounds like you had your mind made up that it would sound bad without trying.. The line in impedance is 7.5k ohms, mics 20k.    In comparison, the Grace V3 mic input is 3k ohms.

[listener2]

I never had issues with getting the gain exactly where I wanted it.  I think it was not mentioned in threads because nobody else has an issue with it.  A change of .1dB?  I wonder why anyone would need that.   How is that requirement now satisfied by the M10?  What other device provides that detailed gain control?  Does the m10 tell you how many db you are adding?  I think you could have set the gain via the menu (and maybe Clink), though I always used the knobs.

I said .1 DB to illustrate the point that the SD702 controls are hard to use in a pinch.  I do not actually make .1 DB level adjustments when recording really, I do attempt to make .5DB or 1DB adjustments however and find it way too time consuming to be juggling the record level knob (waking it up) and then finding out that the turn I just made to wake up the digital circuit has shot my record level way off by 5 to 10 DB! and then I have to keep turning the knob to keep the keep-alive circuit awake and try to fine tune the level adjustment back to where I wanted it.  During this time it is again jumping all over the place and not a smooth change.  It undershoots and overshoots the mark you are aiming to set it at with the slightest turn of the know.  It is just plain hard to set the level where I want it.  Sound Devices acknowledged the problem but said they have no plans on any fix for it.

Also the headphone amp output has tons of hiss noise.  It is way too noisey for a high end device that it is categorized as.

Tons?  I always found the headphone amp extremely powerful and never had any issues with noise.

Well I hear a much higher hiss noise level when playing back my recordings through the SD702 headphones jack.  To each their own hearing!  I hear the hiss.

So contrary to your previous post, there was no issue with the recorder.  It sounds like you weren't familiar with the capabilities of the recorder.  The 7xx limiter is also excellent.

I never said there was an issue with the SD702. Now you are twisting the original posts info around.  My post was about how surprised I was to find out just how high sensitivity the DPA 4060 mics were! not with how crappy and easily overloaded the SD702 mic preamp was.  gosh!

Sounds like you had your mind made up that it would sound bad without trying.. The line in impedance is 7.5k ohms, mics 20k.    In comparison, the Grace V3 mic input is 3k ohms.

Yeah, I did have my mind made up and stubborn for this one.  I just never tried it yet because I did not have to.  If you read my previous post, I said I was able to lower the mic gain setting on the SD702 low enough so that it did not overload the mic preamp stage.  So I left it at that and did not need to go further using the line level input.

[rastasean]

quite candidly I would like to try something out.

I want to make a recording with less superior equipment than schopes microphones, a grace v3, and a sound devices 702 and when I'm ready to seed it, say it was recorded with all of those expensive things and see how many people think it was not recorded with that equipment.

we on this board can't even agree flac vs high quality mp3s sound different nevertheless a sound devices vs a sony m10.

the idea of arguing about equipment and taking someone's personal opinion so seriously and nitpicking everything is overrated and should be left to other boards.

I know I am guilty of having strong opinions but we all need to relax and remember it is about the music.

for the price of the sound devices 702, I would be able to buy 7.5 sony pcm-m10s recording (rounded down) 14 channels.

702 on b&h

m10 on b&h

more is not necessarily better but come on...14 channels to the two on the 702.