Topic: Cable burn in?

[Chuck]

This is like watching an argument over wether or not the earth is flat.

Chris

If it was round, wouldn't the oceans just pour into space?

[cshepherd]

No way, the water crosses into another dimension, boomerangs around the sun and back to the other side of the earth before anybody notices it was gone. 

Chris

[SparkE!]

I don't think the source is the same on the three files.
Each file looks different, they are not all the same length and they all sound different to me.
I'm guessing it's three different/separate performances. Not the same exact source on each recording.

Sparke?

It's 3 different stereo recordings, each of a different source. 

In retrospect, it probably was not a good idea for me to use 3 different sources if the thing we are trying to identify is if there is a perceptible difference between well used cables and new cables.

How about this? I'll split a single mono signal twice and record all 4 signals at 24/96 as 2 stereo pairs, each pair from a different cable set.  Then I'll split the stereo pairs into 4 mono tracks.  Then I'll post 3 of the 4 mono tracks, again as 32 bit floating point Microsoft wav files.  The result will be 3 recordings, 2 of which use the same age of cable and 1 of which uses the other cable set.  I think that this method should be a fairer test because the only differences will be which cables were used in the signal path for each track.  All 3 would use exactly the same signal source.  I'll choose which 3 to use by flipping a coin and I'll choose their names by flipping a coin too.  That should remove any of my personal bias from the experiment.

Does this sound like a fair experiment?  If not, what do I need to do to make it fair?

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

This is like watching an argument over wether or not the earth is flat.

Chris

The earth is definitely not flat.  What most people don't realize is that the earth's crust is actually the inside surface of a sphere.  And if you dig deep enough, you don't get to china, you deflate the sphere by letting the universe out.

Wrap your head around that.

And no, I'm perfectly sober right now.

[OOK]

ish ga bib al gog a bib al

[balou2]

ish ga bib al gog a bib al

I couldn't have said it better myself. +t

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

Chris Church,   

Why don't you go back through the topic posts and answer the questions I have asked of you several times.  You seem to consider yourself quite the experienced expert here yet not once have you reported your own empirical results nor have you reported the equipment on which your tests were conducted.  I've been very clear about my empirical tests, the results I experienced, and the associated equipment.  (the search feature is your friend) Take a look at Brian's post.  Why is it that you can't report that sort of information when asked?  Based on your unwillingness to discuss much about your test methods, I have a difficult time finding you credible in light of the well documented anecdotal reports that contradict your claims. 

While I will admit that there is some value to this, I see an issue with the samples offered and that is why I am not compelled to participate in this round of test.  I feel that a more appropriate test would be to perform pure stereo samples using old for both channels of a sample and new for both channels of a sample.  The current test might also have greater validity if it were performed using one pair new+old then the other pair new+old because we cannot rule out that the difference heard by brian is a difference due to manufacturing inconsistancies.  Still, I'm following the results of others with great interest.  edit:  I will be especially interested to learn if the sound of the new cables approach the sound of the old cables over time.  That would indicate some kind of burn in effect in light of the difference between the two in the current state.


WRT my comment, it was offered to Chris Shepard who's opinions I respect based on discussions we have had related to cable issues outside this thread.

Honestly dude, how in the hell do you expect me to believe that you are serious about this effort when you have already claimed that people who hear burn-in are "wrong".  You have your preformed conclusion and ultimately you may be proven right.  But you are hardly the standard bearer of the scientific method.

What does this have to do with the topic? we are really trying to put this to a real test. I think maybe you should give a listen and see what you think,  insted of being the class clown.

Chris Church

This is like watching an argument over wether or not the earth is flat.

Chris

The earth is definitely not flat.  What most people don't realize is that the earth's crust is actually the inside surface of a sphere.  And if you dig deep enough, you don't get to china, you deflate the sphere by letting the universe out.

Wrap your head around that.

And no, I'm perfectly sober right now.

[Teen Wolf Blitzer]

 

[terrapinj]

And please someone send me the recording that has the broken in cable and the none broken in cable I bet no one can pick the one that is broken in with any accuracy. If you can hear the difference between a broken in cable and one that is not. Well your ears are wrong There have been many studies done on this very subject. From respected scientists not Crack pots that want to sell you silver ac cords and magic Teflon wire. IMO

Chris Church

maybe your ears don't pick up on it chris, you asked for samples and now say you are too busy to listen. it is clear that your mind is made up on this matter. if you are requesting that Chris Shepard not post unless it contributes to the discussion I think it's only fair that you do the same. If you have some articles or tests or anything on the subject matter arguing for your case please post them, if not please don't post.

no one here is going to make up their mind based on what someone else says is fact - we don't do it in the gear we run, the music we listen to or any other discussion we have here. this is a place for discussion so we can each make up our minds for ourselves. i don't disagree that you don't hear a difference or that many others say there isn't a difference because what you hear is what you hear. Maybe Chris Shepard can hear differences - and he is fully entitled to his opinion. He is not trying to sell anything here.

[cshepherd]

I admit I broke one of my own rules.  I try to hard to leave sarcasm out of my posts and stick to what I believe to be the truth.  I have been listening critically to music and sound for over 10 years.  I feel extremely lucky to have had a mentor/dealer in this crazy audio business who showed me the ropes.  He could listen to a piece of gear for 10 minutes and call it for what it was.  I could never understand how he did that.  Now I do.  It's called experience.  I can't explain why cable burn-in occurs.  I don't need to know.  My ears hear it on a daily basis.  That's good enough for me.  Mike in New York (kindms) recently purchased a set of Atlas Questor rca cables from Eugene Hi-Fi on my recommendation.  Mike paid full price for the cables.  I only asked that he send me his comments after listening to them for a few days.  These were his unprovoked comments, what he felt was most necessary to talk about, also posted at http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=62875.msg853841#msg853841

My playback is pretty humble.

Pioneer Elite DV-45a -> Atlas Interconnetcs -> marantz SR880 -> Toddr's Segue silver clad speaker cables -> Klipsch KG1.5V (Bookshelf speakers)
Energy e:xl 12 subwoofer

I really like the build quailty. They felt like a nice set of cables. good aesthetics. When I got them hooked up and started giving them a listen for the first 3 hours or so I was like oh no these sound crunchy etc sort of bright. But it had only been about 3hrs so I pushed on. I would say shortly after they really seemed to open up. I was getting resonance from my 24/48 masters that I hadn't heard before. I asked my Girlfriend if i was hearing stuff because the notes seemed to just float thru my apt. The longer I had them in the better they got. I was actually quite surprised by the difference a few hours made on the cables.

Unfortunately for me these were to do analog cassette master transfers. So I burned them in and then packed them up to go to upsate NY. Nakamichi LX-5 -> Atlas -> PC. So they are now currently being used for this task and no longer in my playback system Sad

I was extremely happy with my purchase and thought your customer service was excellent. As soon as I packed them up I wanted a new set. I may do that soon. When I do you'll be the first to know.

There's no psycho-acoustics at play here.  There's no back door deal for him to back deceptive claims made to the masses.  Just hard evidence from someone who took the time to listen.  One of our peers.  Chris Church, I'm sorry I offered to send you a burned in Atlas Questor instrument cable to check out with your guitar collection.  I thought you might appreciate the opportunity to hear what something other than Mogami sounds like between your vintage guitars and vintage amps.  Judging from this rant you started the following morning, I must have seriously offended you.  My apologies.


Chris Shepherd
aka crackpot

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

I will conduct my own listening test as should all the members of taperssection that are interested

Chris, are you on the east coast?  I'd be more than happy to let you listen to a variety of cables in my playback system.  I can't demonstrate burn-in differences, as I indicated above.  I tried with two pair of interconnects and I didn't hear a difference in my test.  I can hear a distinct difference between interconnects in my playback system.   For listening tests I generally use 24/96 DVD-A studio recordings because I think they are more clear than the swill I bring from the field.

Anyway, if you are near the DC area I'd be more than happy to have you over for listening tests.   There are several other list members who are close by and they can come along to participate too.  We can bring together an assload of different  wires between the group of us.


Edit: couldn't help but respond to this

Why not show us some of this cable knowledge you have and show us some of these reports you’re talking about. And contribute in a meaningful way? hummm I guess it’s easier to just be the class clown eh?

Dude, the search feature is your friend.  There is plenty of discussion on this board, on audiogon discussion forums, audio asylum discussion forums, audiocircles discussion forums, etc.  There really is a lot of end user discussion about burn-in occuring.  So if you wish to participate rather than pontificate, please avail yourself of the search feature on each of the 4 resources I mention and read what many many others have posted on this topic.

And to answer your question honestly, yes it is easier to be a class clown under these circumstances.  Yet I've made the effort to engage in discourse that is drama free.  Chris Shepard previously offered to let me audition some cables and his kind offer left me with the impression that I could trade comments with him in the manner usually seen in these threads.  Given that you didn't start the thread, I can't see where you think you now own it.

In anycase, the offer is still open.  You are welcome to try some tests on my playback system and I promise that if you  can't hear what I hear, I'll not tell you that your 20 years of udio work has resulted in hearing loss.  I know I have hearing loss yet I can hear differences between some cables.

[eric.B]

I find that *most* who have been in the music/audio industry for twenty+ years have ears that are shot..   ymmv

[willndmb]

on my shit speakers source 2 sounds best
followed by 1 and then 3
so if i understand right, source 2 would have both burned in on l/r
1 would have 1 burnt in one not
3 would have both not burnt it

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

No thanks I live in Canada very far away I guess you don't want to make some recordings of the interconnects? I have someone else working on this now for me.
Chris Church

I don't have any way to make recordings using the interconnects that I own.  My recording rig is fully balanced.

If you have an opportunity to borrow some cables to try in your playback system you should do it.  I entered into this hoping that I could not hear a difference between the $60 used cardas interconnects and the $120 used ven haus cables.  The cardas is long gone.  I would have been just as happy to spend the extra money on hoppy brew.

[SparkE!]

on my shit speakers source 2 sounds best
followed by 1 and then 3
so if i understand right, source 2 would have both burned in on l/r
1 would have 1 burnt in one not
3 would have both not burnt it

Hey thanks for taking the time to listen, but I don't think you understand how the test was set up.

These are 3 different stereo sources, each made with 2 cables, 1 on one channel and 1 on the other channel.  One cable is burned in, the other is not.  On 2 of the 3 sources, the burned in cable is on one channel and on 1 of the 3 sources, the burned-in cable is on the other channel.  The goal is to pick which recording has the cables on different channels with respect to the other 2.

Unfortunately, people are responding more to the fact that these are 3 different sources, so that is unfairly biasing the results.  Please try again when I post 3 recordings of the same source and try to pick which 2 of the 3 are recorded with the same cable.  Extra credit for identifying whether those 2 recordings were made with the burned-in cable or the new cable.

Right now, I'm having a hard time finding my two identical splitters so that all signal paths will be identical, except for the choice of cable connected to the recorder.  I don't want two different types of splitters involved too.