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Gear / Technical Help => Playback Forum => Topic started by: acidjack on September 14, 2014, 01:46:54 PM
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I am looking at adding a Sonos system but have some questions about its utility for playing my FLAC files.
What I have now for digital is entirely in the iTunes universe and I do not plan to abandon iTunes. I listen to pretty much everything digital on HQ MP3s and I have numerous customized playlists set up based on play counts, dates added, etc. I do most of my serious listening to pre-recorded music on vinyl.
Of course, the iTunes world is a bummer for my FLAC files, which I can only listen to on headphones at my computer, or basically never.
My FLACs are stored haphazardly on numerous hard drives. I plan to consolidate everything into a single RAID system that fixes that.
But, the FLAC folders are like this:
TOP LEVEL: ARTIST DATE VENUE CITY
2ND LEVEL: Raw files and other editing
3RD LEVEL: Folders containing FLACs in one, MP3 in another
How does the Sonos "intelligently" find your music? Would I be right to assume it will basically just read ID3 tags, and unfortunately, duplicate my FLAC and MP3 unless I manually move the FLAC folders somewhere? How does the hierarchy work?
Further, how does Sonos work with iTunes? Does it mess it up at all? Does it update play counts, etc? Or does it simply just read ID3 tags off of the underlying files, therefore not even using iTunes' system at all? (I assume this is how it works)
I have zero interest in streaming music junk beyond using Spotify to discover new stuff and then buy it on vinyl.
Anyone have any advice? Also, how bad are those Sonos speakers for non-serious listening (bedroom speaker, etc.)?
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I can't give you any help on Sonus Systems, but i was shackled to iTunes until last year when i moved to J River Media Center and JRemote (iPhone APP)
I was tired of converting all my flacs to ALAC, so i got off the iTunes. Not running flac and not being able to switch from 16 bit to 24 were the
deal breakers for me.
I have all my tracks on my main music computer (90,000) where i run J River Media Center. I can control everything remotely from JRemote
http://www.jriver.com/index.html
http://www.jremote.net
In my home theater room, i have an APPLE TV hooked to a bel canto DAC, then analog out to my system preamp. With Jremote and using Apple's Airplay
i can stream any of my 90,000 tracks to the apple TV > dac > preamp > amp > speakers
In my main music room, i just sit on my couch and browse my tracks on my iPhone and cue up stuff to listen to.
For my bedroom listening i bought one of these Altec Lansing iPhone docks for 69.00 that sound fine for casual listening,
but still have access to all of my music through the iPhone.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/812171-REG/Altec_Lansing_IMT630_inMotion_iMT630_Slimline_Speaker.html
There's more……..when i'm in my car i can connect my iPhone using JRemote to my car stereo using Airplay via bluetooth
and access my 90,000 tracks over the internet using JRiver Media Center media server functions. My friends freak out when they get in my car, because i can access any of my recordings
right from my iPhone.
Theres more ……when i'm at my work computer (where the high end headphone setup resides)i have a second instance of JRiver Media Center running there and i can load the library from
my main music computer on my work machine via my home wireless network and play any of my 90,000 tracks on that computer as well using JRiver's DLNA setup.
And when i'm laying in my chair out back i have access to all the tracks and listen with my Shure SE535's on my iPhone.
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^^^
Wow, that does sound like a great system. Does not fully solve the problem of what happens when not on the Internet, which is the case for me during a lot of listening time (plane, subway) but otherwise that seems just about perfect. Hmm..
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Does not fully solve the problem of what happens when not on the Internet
The problem is that the three things don't really play well. Two of the three do, but not all three (flac being one of the great problems). Read up on how the Jriver app caches frequently used stuff. I think you can keep X mbytes of material locally so when you're lacking signal, it would fall back on those.
//disclaimer; I went with JRiver as well cause, but thats cause I didn't use itunes.
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I will throw this out there as well. Logitech Squeezebox. Plays FLAC's from your home network. The Squeezebox connects to your stereo and can stream via ethernet or wirelesss. I have three and love them. here's a link to some on ebay
http://tinyurl.com/kb7m5ur
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^^^
Wow, that does sound like a great system. Does not fully solve the problem of what happens when not on the Internet, which is the case for me during a lot of listening time (plane, subway) but otherwise that seems just about perfect. Hmm..
I bought a used iPod Touch for 75.00 that i take on the road with me when i don't have internet access or when the streaming isn't working well.
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I can't answer any of acidjacks questions but am marking this thread to hopefully learn more as I'm new to Sonos myself.
Don't mean to hijack but I second request for any information on quality and usability of Sonos.
Looking for options in new house that are not too obstructive for the family but still puts out good sound without needing floor stand speakers. I also like the app option with Sonos and wireless speakers for the kids and backyard listening without running speaker wire.
Also learned I need to look into this JRiver as well!
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I've been using MusicBee: http://getmusicbee.com/ lately and I am really happy with it.
I've used WinAmp, FooBar2000 & iTunes and I like MusicBee best so far. It's lightning fast at picking up additions to your library and it never crashes. It's also very customizeable.
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I've been using: 2 play 5s, 2 connect amps and a connect around our house. I also have a bridge that I no longer use as one or more of those is connected by ethernet. I think with the most recent update, ethernet and or bridges are no longer needed. I'm pretty pleased. None of this is for critical listening though.
I do have it using itunes in 2 different ways. I've got a Mac Mini that is an itunes server. I also have an airport express hooked up to a Play 5 and use Airplay and Remote to play that way. I believe it just scans the files and doesn't do anything to play counts (unless I'm controlling it through Remote/Airplay/Airport Express). It does a scan periodically to update file status.
I've never tried playing flac files, but would be willing to hook up a hard drive and let the Sonos app do its thing to see how it works.
If you go with a Connect or a Play 5, you get a line in if that's helpful. Unfortunately no product has more than one line in, but if you have several, then you get multiple line ins.
Which product were you going to use?
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Not sure if you saw this or if it helps with your questions:
https://sonos.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/261/session/L2F2LzEvdGltZS8xNDEyNzk0MTAzL3NpZC85R04tN240bQ%3D%3D (https://sonos.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/261/session/L2F2LzEvdGltZS8xNDEyNzk0MTAzL3NpZC85R04tN240bQ%3D%3D)
EDIT: Just so you are aware, the only component that has a digital in is the Playbar. I believe that is resampled, but am not sure. If you are planning to use the other Sonos components with a DA converter, you might be disappointed as it will do an AD conversion.
This stuff is not for critical listening, but is great for whole home audio, outside speakers or listening to stuff casually. You might run in to problems with file naming or the 65k track limit on a NAS. Let me know what questions I can answer for you.
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This stuff is not for critical listening, but is great for whole home audio, outside speakers or listening to stuff casually. You might run in to problems with file naming or the 65k track limit on a NAS. Let me know what questions I can answer for you.
We just outfitted our entire house with Sonos (Playbar, sub, 2x fives, a three, and 2x 1s) and I have to agree, it's great for convenience, but beyond that it's not very serious.
Seems like feature development for sonos is pretty stagnant. Most flaws I've discovered have been around for years. How they thought its acceptable to only be able to link one spotify account on a network is beyond me. That said, this purchase wasn't for me so much as the SO.
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This stuff is not for critical listening, but is great for whole home audio, outside speakers or listening to stuff casually. You might run in to problems with file naming or the 65k track limit on a NAS. Let me know what questions I can answer for you.
We just outfitted our entire house with Sonos (Playbar, sub, 2x fives, a three, and 2x 1s) and I have to agree, it's great for convenience, but beyond that it's not very serious.
Seems like feature development for sonos is pretty stagnant. Most flaws I've discovered have been around for years. How they thought its acceptable to only be able to link one spotify account on a network is beyond me. That said, this purchase wasn't for me so much as the SO.
This is great and exactly what I was hoping to hear.
I am really looking for a simple and easy way for my family to access their music and watch TV without bogging them and the family room down by another component system.
I plan to buy this winter when we move so welcome any tips or advice.
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Are you doing all this in one room? If so, I'd get a Playbar, Sub and 2 Play 3s for rear speakers.
My understanding is that the black matte subs are being phased out and the glossy black one will be the only option in the future. If that matters to you and you want matte, I'd get it now.
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Are you doing all this in one room? If so, I'd get a Playbar, Sub and 2 Play 3s for rear speakers.
My understanding is that the black matte subs are being phased out and the glossy black one will be the only option in the future. If that matters to you and you want matte, I'd get it now.
Thanks John. That's really good info! I'll have to look and see what would look best.
Yep, this will be for just one room but I would like some portability for the kids to move around the house. I also like the option of wireless to the yard. There will definitely be a separate room for critical listening so this is just for TV and iphone app playing. Would the small ones be best for portability around the house or in the yard or would I want to go bigger?
I see where it says you can go 3.1 and 5.1 but I'm curious how. Having two play 3's for the rear will just allow for sound behind you or channel isolation ?
Jonas: so sorry for the thread jack I'm hoping to learn about your questions as well.
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Sonos considers the playbar to be both the center and front (L,R) speakers. So adding a sub makes it "3.1". A sub and 2 Play 3s or Play 1s for rear channel makes it "5.1". My understanding is that each of the rear acts as a true separate channel (L,R).
I don't see that the Play 5s can be used as rear channel speakers in a 5.1 setup, but I'm not sure why.
I have in-wall and in-ceiling speakers through the house so I don't use my components for home theater. My understanding though is that it works very well with no appreciable delay. Since I don't have a Playbar, I don't think I have an option to even try to do the 3.1 thing, but I believe it is setup through the Sonos App.
I have used the Play 5s as a stereo pair (true L,R) and it was easy to set them up as such and sounded pretty awesome actually. Currently they reside in separate rooms though.
My local Best Buy has all the components, so I'd go there to check them out. Not a great way to demo them, but I thought the 5 sounded better than the 3 which sounded better than the 1.
The Play 5 is pretty heavy but I consider it to be somewhat portable. The 3 and 1 are pretty lightweight. If I were using the 3 as rear channel speakers, I wouldn't want to use them for anything else. I wouldn't want the hassle of having to go into the app to take them in and out of a 5.1 setup (although I'm sure its pretty easy and quick). I'd rather just buy another 1 or 3 to have outside. Or if you'd have it outside in the same spot frequently, get weatherproof speakers and a connect amp.
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Excellent, thanks. I'll be referencing your posts when I take a look. It definitely looks to be what I need for this room.
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I connected a drive containing all my recordings and added it to the music library. In the Sonos app it comes up as in the Music Library>Folders. It then shows the directories exactly as they are on the drive (i.e. ab2008-05-20). It will not play 24bit flac, but does fine with 16bit flac.
One thing I don't like about playing the Music Library with the app is that if you play a track it doesn't continue to the next track once the current one ends. Not sure if I'm doing something wrong though. So I'm not sure it does gapless playback.
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I can't give you any help on Sonus Systems, but i was shackled to iTunes until last year when i moved to J River Media Center and JRemote (iPhone APP)
I was tired of converting all my flacs to ALAC, so i got off the iTunes. Not running flac and not being able to switch from 16 bit to 24 were the
deal breakers for me.
I have all my tracks on my main music computer (90,000) where i run J River Media Center. I can control everything remotely from JRemote
http://www.jriver.com/index.html
http://www.jremote.net
In my home theater room, i have an APPLE TV hooked to a bel canto DAC, then analog out to my system preamp. With Jremote and using Apple's Airplay
i can stream any of my 90,000 tracks to the apple TV > dac > preamp > amp > speakers
In my main music room, i just sit on my couch and browse my tracks on my iPhone and cue up stuff to listen to.
For my bedroom listening i bought one of these Altec Lansing iPhone docks for 69.00 that sound fine for casual listening,
but still have access to all of my music through the iPhone.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/812171-REG/Altec_Lansing_IMT630_inMotion_iMT630_Slimline_Speaker.html
There's more……..when i'm in my car i can connect my iPhone using JRemote to my car stereo using Airplay via bluetooth
and access my 90,000 tracks over the internet using JRiver Media Center media server functions. My friends freak out when they get in my car, because i can access any of my recordings
right from my iPhone.
Theres more ……when i'm at my work computer (where the high end headphone setup resides)i have a second instance of JRiver Media Center running there and i can load the library from
my main music computer on my work machine via my home wireless network and play any of my 90,000 tracks on that computer as well using JRiver's DLNA setup.
And when i'm laying in my chair out back i have access to all the tracks and listen with my Shure SE535's on my iPhone.
thanks for the tip on this..... I've just started the process of ripping all my cd's to an external drive, using XLD and ripping in ALAC... I plan to keep using iTunes to keep track of everything, but I don't like the idea of having to convert anything I've downloaded from FLAC to ALAC just to be able to listen via iTunes or on any of my iPods..... I really wish Apple would just integrate FLAC into their recognized formats, already.....
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Brief update--
After installing a Sonos system as my non-main system, I have to say I am shocked by what out and out garbage this product is. I am furious that I invested in it.
It has repeated, regular dropouts and software hangs -- despite that I have 200MBps WiFi throughout the apartment that was professionally installed (along with the Sonos, which doesn't need a professional, but it came all together), with a switcher, and my place is not large by the standards of a normal detached U.S. house.
The feature set sucks. Cannot import my iTunes playlists, rendering that library useless (since I can get the files on Spotify anyway). Has spottily imported my FLACs. Spotifiy, the predominant music service, has no 'album" function or "radio" function, so you just have to sort of think about albums you might like and play them. Deezer, the new French service, has FLAC streaming and has the "album" function, but its hanging issues are worse and plus fewer people use it. I can't just leave it on during the day to provide some background noise, because it invariably shuts off, even on repeat or a Pandora station.
As to the sound quality, it's OK for a bedroom or kitchen speakers, or outdoors, but by "OK" I mean my powered office computer speakers would smoke this thing. The dual Play:1 speakers in my bedroom can't really fill that room with sound... again, we're talking about an apartment bedroom. The single Play:3 in the kitchen is fair, about as good as the Bose speaker of the same size. The connects I have hooked up to my reference system and my office system (which is also pretty nice) work sporadically and their quality is nothing to write home about.
All of this makes me wish I had kept my several Airport Express WiFi units, as my homebrew Airport-based multi-room system was vastly more reliable and cheaper to implement than this crap system. Sonos' "ease" is only relevant if you literally have no idea how to set up any kind of legitimate audio system.
I have contacted Sonos, and heard nothing back except "Send a diagnostic". Which I did, and now have heard nothing.
They, and the pro audio installers who set the system up, are about to receive back a box of junk and a request for a full refund. I am stunned that this product is this popular.
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Sorry to hear about your disappointment.
I steered clear of Sonos because I feared it wouldn't have the flexibility I wanted and it just seemed painfully expensive.
I've been picking up various bits and pieces of Logitech Squeezebox kit on Ebay and couldn't be happier. Admittedly, I'm not trying to incorporate Itunes and I don't really use it for anything other than streaming ripped CDs and my own recordings or internet radio but it has been a piece of cake to set up and in the last 18 months I think my problems have amounted to no more than one of the SB Radios hanging up twice.
It certainly isn't as pretty as a Sonos set up but then what is?
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My experience with sonos has been the opposite. I won a connect at an audio show a couple of months ago and quickly bought a play 5, play 3, playbar, sub and 2 play 1s. I have been so impressed with the system and how flawlessly it has worked I continue to buy more gear. I do think that the Play 1s are pretty useless for most anything other than as surround rears(how I use them) but the Play 3 will fill a small to medium size room and the play 5 is more than adequate for all my other rooms. I am feeding it with spotify and Sirius and have had zero drop outs.
My only complaint, well, two. First no support for files over 16/44.1 kind of sucks, but I can deal with it. The second is the hard limit of 65k songs, of which I have more than twice that. The work around though is an airport express feeding my connect and I can do iTunes remote from there to any of the speakers in the system.
Sonos doesn't hold a candle to my tube/vinyl playback, and it shouldn't, but it sounds damn good for what it is...
sorry to hear of your issues acidjack.
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Thanks acidjack and nickgregory for the feedback. Eating it all up it's really appreciated! I've got a couple buddies who absolutely love their sonos setup. Everyone has raved about the ease and convenience and no complaints of sound quality. I'm thinking a lot depends on what you're using it for.
I'm looking for something with a small foot print for a family room that will mostly *not* be used for critical listening by me. The portability of the speakers is what's really getting me. Seems like the best feature with kids.
acidjack's comments are very real though so I'll be weighing in heavily before I make a purchase which I'll need to decide real soon.
Thanks.
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Sorry to hear about your problems acidjack. The dropouts definitely should not be happening. Are you using a Bridge or Boost? In your situation I don't know if I would spend any more money on Sonos gear, but if you can return it, I'd buy a Boost if you aren't already using one.
Since the original post, I've added a Playbar, Sub and Play 1 to the already existing connect amps, connect and 2 play 5s. I'm using a Bridge again and have never had a dropout. I'm surprised that's happening to you but would be angry if that were going on in my situation.
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fwiw I have used a boost from day one.
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Brief update--
After installing a Sonos system as my non-main system, I have to say I am shocked by what out and out garbage this product is. I am furious that I invested in it.
It has repeated, regular dropouts and software hangs -- despite that I have 200MBps WiFi throughout the apartment that was professionally installed (along with the Sonos, which doesn't need a professional, but it came all together), with a switcher, and my place is not large by the standards of a normal detached U.S. house.
The feature set sucks. Cannot import my iTunes playlists, rendering that library useless (since I can get the files on Spotify anyway). Has spottily imported my FLACs. Spotifiy, the predominant music service, has no 'album" function or "radio" function, so you just have to sort of think about albums you might like and play them. Deezer, the new French service, has FLAC streaming and has the "album" function, but its hanging issues are worse and plus fewer people use it. I can't just leave it on during the day to provide some background noise, because it invariably shuts off, even on repeat or a Pandora station.
As to the sound quality, it's OK for a bedroom or kitchen speakers, or outdoors, but by "OK" I mean my powered office computer speakers would smoke this thing. The dual Play:1 speakers in my bedroom can't really fill that room with sound... again, we're talking about an apartment bedroom. The single Play:3 in the kitchen is fair, about as good as the Bose speaker of the same size. The connects I have hooked up to my reference system and my office system (which is also pretty nice) work sporadically and their quality is nothing to write home about.
All of this makes me wish I had kept my several Airport Express WiFi units, as my homebrew Airport-based multi-room system was vastly more reliable and cheaper to implement than this crap system. Sonos' "ease" is only relevant if you literally have no idea how to set up any kind of legitimate audio system.
I have contacted Sonos, and heard nothing back except "Send a diagnostic". Which I did, and now have heard nothing.
They, and the pro audio installers who set the system up, are about to receive back a box of junk and a request for a full refund. I am stunned that this product is this popular.
I'm not sure if this applies to you but it jumped out at me in your description. You say 200Mbps wifi and apartment. #1 apartment wifi can be really noisy. Meaning that a lot of times folks just plunk down their wifi and thats it. In an urban environment where lots of people are using wifi you are going to have a lot of overlap on certain channels. If the installers left the wifi on the default channels it could be that you are just getting wifi noise causing you trouble. Internet surfing etc might not show this all the time but streaming audio and or videoo would make this more prevalent.
What kind of wifi did they install (ie manufacturers ?) have you tried moving it to different channels to see if perhaps there is a lot of RF noised in your area ? It may be that the wifi is the weak link and not the sonos although that doesn't speak to the catalog issues.
I LOVE my logitech touch. I really really wish they had continued making them. Figures by the time I have a home and can afford another unit they stop making them
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so Sonos hasn't solved the 65k track limitation, but subsonic has:
http://www.subsonic.org/pages/sonos.jsp
Been using this weekend and it4 works perfectly...sets up as a stand alone music service and makes my 150k music library visible, searchable and playable through Sonos. It is a $1 a month after the initial free first 30 days. Damn near a bargain.
Now if they would just solve the ability to stream higher than 16/44.1 I would be ecstatic, but even without it...pretty damn happy.
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So I'm about a month into a Playbar and Sub and have to say for what I am using it for, we absolutely love it.
Now I haven't played a single flac file. Im sure if I tried to go that route I would experience some frustration as I did with the Squeezebox. Realizing they don't design these things for what we do, I have to say as a wireless option for our family room and kids, it couldn't be more perfect. Even just the ease of throwing on one of the music apps and controlling from your phone has a certain appeal. Quick and easy and instant music to fill up the room.
I'm actually not finding much need right now for the play 1/3/5's but have let the kids know to put it on their list or save up to get one for their space.
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agreed on using it as a surround setup. I have the playbar, sub and 2 play 1s in my main TV room and it is awesome. Running cables and having a separate receiver would ahve been a major pain in the ass and this system solved it. Also sounds great when you switch it to play music with the playbar acting as main speakers and the rears adding ambience. now if they could just develop wireless power I would be living the high life.
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My library remains in ALAC. I don't find it to be much of a hassle to convert, plus i like consistent date/naming formats, so would probably end up putting the work in regardless. I still wish apple would support flac though.
For those of you looking for a way to have your itunes play various bit depths/sample rates without resorting to having to manually change the midi settings in osx, try using a USB DAC and BitPerfect. www.bitPerfectsound.blogspot.com
This will allow the audio to come straight from your drive without the computer altering it, but still using itunes as the front end.
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and we now have a solution to the 65k track limitation...initial testing is it works flawlessly
http://www.subsonic.org/pages/sonos.jsp
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I put in a Sonos system for my mother when I rebuilt her A/V system. I love the wireless speakers and app.
In my own house I have a 20tb QNAP NAS and the QNAP Qfile app lets me play anything, anywhere...literally. I don't even need internet access as I can run it all over my cell phone's data plan. Audio, video, etc.
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I put in a Sonos system for my mother when I rebuilt her A/V system. I love the wireless speakers and app.
In my own house I have a 20tb QNAP NAS and the QNAP Qfile app lets me play anything, anywhere...literally. I don't even need internet access as I can run it all over my cell phone's data plan. Audio, video, etc.
One of these days I need to look into this setup. Sounds perfect for my lossless. Know several people who love the setup.