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Author Topic: 3 foot split omnis stage lip Hunter and Amendola?  (Read 13554 times)

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Offline MakersMarc

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3 foot split omnis stage lip Hunter and Amendola?
« on: June 13, 2015, 12:48:07 PM »
I rarely run stage lip, and when I have, it's been my 4022s x-y. But I'm anxious to try my Line Audio OM1 pair and my 36 inch split Gak bar...how would this sound? I dont have the recorder to be able to run a center channel. Thanks!
« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 01:24:08 PM by MakersMarc »
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Re: 3 foot split omnis stage lip Hunter and Amendola?
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2015, 01:01:16 PM »
Do it!!!  It will sound great!!!  Instrumental jazz is often excellent stage-lip/on-stage.  If you want to be safe, put the 4022s in the middle...

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Re: 3 foot split omnis stage lip Hunter and Amendola?
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2015, 01:14:37 PM »
When I've seen Charlie and Scott perform they sit spread apart, facing each other so the audience in the front of the stage is looking at their profile. I believe Charlie sits on his amp. So if you run split omni you may get Scott predominately in your left channel and Charlie in the right. Just something to consider.
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Re: 3 foot split omnis stage lip Hunter and Amendola?
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2015, 01:55:53 PM »
Thanks guys gonna run the 4022 safety copy xy in the middle. If it works out I'll be sure to post.  :D
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Re: 3 foot split omnis stage lip Hunter and Amendola?
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2015, 02:00:55 PM »
I hope to catch them in Phoenix the following night. Let us know how it goes.
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Offline MakersMarc

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Re: 3 foot split omnis stage lip Hunter and Amendola?
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2015, 08:58:00 PM »
  :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: 3 foot split omnis stage lip Hunter and Amendola?
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2015, 01:11:57 PM »
Photo below [edit- found 'em, see first photo next post] shows a similar spaced omni + separate coincident setup for recording Charlie's trio back in 2010 at a then brand new performance space here.  Stage arrangement was Eric Kalb on drums, left side with kit facing sideways; Charlie center on a stool (bass amp directly behind, top-strings fender slightly to the right); Michael Williams on bass trumpet on the right side (rather quiet, a challenge to bring up enough in my mix, louder out in the house).

At the time I was into using miniature omnis on thin stalks paced across the stagelip, and I'd gaff taped four DPA 4060s to aluminum TIG welding rod stock and bent each into a curve, with the intent of gaff taping them to the stage lip front edge.  That would've placed the mics about 2' above the stage, each spaced about 3'-4' apart, for about an 11' total spread across the front, nearly invisible to the audience.  The theater manager didn't want any mics protruding above stage level, so I ended up just laying them down onto the stage surface instead, with about the same spacing, and pointed them out to Charlie and the guys (who were standing off stage in back) so they hopefully wouldn't step on them!   It was also my inaugural run of the Tetramic, which the manager allowed me to just peak over the edge of the stage at the center, between the omnis.   So that's what can be seen in the photo. 

It was interesting listening to the omnis as individual pairs.  Considered as individual spaced omni pairs, the mic arrangement sort of had the left-most two omnis centered on the kit, the center pair on Charlie, and the right pair centered on the horn (though the level of the often muted horn was low and Charlie's amps competed with over the horn on that side).  The center pair alone would have worked pretty well on it's own but the combination of four was better, and provided a lot of mix flexibility which helped balance things.  I could bring up the horn more, the clean drum kit attack and pan across the stereo image, and massage the overall balance of all three musicians. It was fun but a challenge to mix because I recorded the four omnis to separate R-09 recorders, one for the inside pair, the second for the outer pair, and those needed to be carefully stretched and synced.  I distributed this locally on CDs, but never upped it anywhere.  I can "cloud it" up somewhere for download if you guys care to hear it.. and if someone wants to up it to the LMA that's totally cool by me.

After all the syncing and mixing I moved on to something else and never did anything with the separate Tetramic ambisonic recording, recorded to the R44, which is why I needed to align & post-sync the files from the two separate R09s.

Hmmm, can't locate that year of recordings on the backup drives here at work, will have to look for the photos and recording once I get home tonight.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2015, 04:07:39 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: 3 foot split omnis stage lip Hunter and Amendola?
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2015, 01:16:25 PM »
Hey, found the raw files and a couple photos of the setup described above.  See below.  First photo shows the mics and general setup.  You can really only see the left two of the four omnis.  The Tetramic is on the stand peaking over the lip centered between the four.  Spacing actually ended up being more like 4' between the center pair, and an additional 3' out to either outside omni. 

I'll dig up the tracked and flac'd 2-channel stereo mixdown at home tonight if anyone is interested.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2015, 04:10:52 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: 3 foot split omnis stage lip Hunter and Amendola?
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2015, 01:31:14 PM »
Here's a photo showing my original intent of those 'curved stalks' with the miniature omnis on them, setup for another jazz trio at a different venue.  Only three of the omnis on stalks this time, but attached as intended with them sticking up instead of laying down.  The center stalk omni is attached to the stand with the Tetramic at the top and coincident ADK TLs underneath.  The camera flash makes the stalks easily visible, appearing thicker, more intrusive, and far more obvious than they actually were.  I set them up four across about three times at this same gig, same band, before two of the band members even took notice of them.  The short stand with normal looking mics distracted all attention from the thin black curved stalks.

Edit- this was probably the apex of my trying lots of things at the same time and comparing them, running three separate simultaneous recordings in this circumstance.  10 channels total but on only two recorders without sync issues this time.  4 for the Tetramic > R44; 4 for the 4060 omnis (one boundary mounted to the wall beneath the lip facing the room/audience) and two for the TLs > DR-680.  Crazy perhaps, but loads of fun and a great opportunity to figure things out by doing it this way.

« Last Edit: June 16, 2015, 04:17:48 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

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Re: 3 foot split omnis stage lip Hunter and Amendola?
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2015, 03:27:03 PM »
Thanks guys gonna run the 4022 safety copy xy in the middle. If it works out I'll be sure to post.  :D

Excellent choice.  I hope to hear it, per...
'Love to see some split love on the LMA from the rookie.

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Re: 3 foot split omnis stage lip Hunter and Amendola?
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2015, 05:26:31 PM »
Thanks Guys, should be fun....I don't have my backup solid state (just ordered another wmod 661 today)yet so prolly run 4022>148>dat in the middle and OM1 split Gak bar into the 661. Gut, thanks for the wealth of info, most appreciated. venue is pretty cool with recording as long as you're not in the way and sadly, being Tucson and 107 I'm expecting a light crowd, hope to be mistaken. Lamest crowds in any city I've lived in or been to.  ::) last time I saw Charlie in 2002 or so he had a fantastic singer from NY so I ran 15 away and not lip.
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Re: 3 foot split omnis stage lip Hunter and Amendola?
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2015, 06:15:41 PM »
On stage / at the lip is the place to be for this stuff, as long as it's all instrumental.  One of the cool things about getting the mics on stage is you'll clearly pickup all of Charlie's subtle (and not so subtle!) grunts, groans, and shouts, along with a the off-mic verbal communications between the two musicians which often can't be heard out in the room.  I really dig that stuff on my recordings of his groups.

It ought to cool off a good bit out there the desert evenings, no?  I'd imagine that's when folks venture out.  Feels like late summer here today in South Florida, temp hit about 92 which is typically about as hot at we get, but it feels hotter as its humid, especially so out in midday in the sun.   Will be more so when the rains hit, its been mostly dry so far this season.  The difference between now and late summer here isn't day time temps but progressively warming nights.  Not that much  cooler at 4am here come Sept.

Have fun with it, should be a great show. 

If anyone want's to hear the trio recording I was blabbering about above just let me know and I'll dig it out.
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline audBall

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Re: 3 foot split omnis stage lip Hunter and Amendola?
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2015, 06:31:45 PM »
It ought to cool off a good bit out there the desert evenings, no?

Tucson has it a little better than the Phoenix valley as they're about 1000 ft higher in elevation so their nights are a little better than ours. Currently, we're experiencing an "excessive heat wave" with temps a few degrees higher than normal. This time of year the temperature doesn't really fall below 100F until after 9-10pm with average overnight lows around 86-88F. The heat definitely affects show turnouts, but lots of people want to get out at night cuz, well, that's the only time for reprieve. Tucson has always struggled with show turnouts, regardless of the time of year. They have an absolutely thriving underground scene with lots of up-and-coming bands, however, it's always a challenge to get folks out to some of the pricier gigs.

Ok, enough sidetracking. Hope the show turns out well for you, Marc. I look forward to catching the show tomorrow.
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Offline MakersMarc

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Re: 3 foot split omnis stage lip Hunter and Amendola?
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2015, 07:11:15 PM »
Spot on all that Audball....thanks guys, report later on.....
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Re: 3 foot split omnis stage lip Hunter and Amendola?
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2015, 11:59:48 AM »
Showed up early and caught Charlie and Scott at the end of sound check...nice guys, no issues with taping as long as I ran low. So the stage is elevated about 3 feet, I put my stand dead center so mics were a few inches above stage level. Sorry no pics....no smartie phone. 4022s x-y in the middle clamped to the Gak bar, line audio OM1s split 3 feet. Each dpa was pointed pretty much at each player.

So far everything sounds nice. I guessed at levels because I had no soundcheck at all, and the line audio>m148>warm mod sbm1>M1 was a bit hot....but not audibly clipped, the smapper will take a hell of a lot of level, I've never clipped it. Was at about 4 on the dial. 4022>Wmod 661 not as hot, started and finished at 5. Gonna be some fan noise (not rumble, but just noise) from the fan out in the house, it was deathly hot. Congress has no A/C, only a crappy swamp cooler. Sweaty tits hot.  >:D

Great show, two sets, with a landfill sales intermission. Hunters faces effing crack me up. Believe it or not about 50 people, tops. But enthusiastic jazz heads. Tucson.  ::) Charlie is of course amazing, but really impressed with Amendola.

First impression of the OM1 is that this might be one of the best bargains out there, nice and warm, not super detailed but very pleasing. Worth a hell of a lot more than 250 a pair. Wow. 

Anyone want to volunteer to upload to etree?
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Re: 3 foot split omnis stage lip Hunter and Amendola?
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2015, 12:16:20 PM »
sorry if this is dumb but I am still learning all the lingo what is a gak bar?
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Re: 3 foot split omnis stage lip Hunter and Amendola?
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2015, 12:24:10 PM »
sorry that's not really lingo.....Ted Gakidis on this board builds split omni bars.  : ;D
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Re: 3 foot split omnis stage lip Hunter and Amendola?
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2015, 12:44:47 PM »
Thank you
Mics: Matched rode nt5 with stock card, omni , and MJE-384K "Roadster" - Capsules /  AKG C 414-ULS/SE Special Edition Stereo Set / Line Audio 2xOM1 2xCM3, Rycote WS
Stands & Mounts: SRS SHAPEWAYS MIC CLIPS ORTF,NOS,DIN, XY for rode, ortf & Wide ORTF for Line Audio / Grace Design blumlein Bar / GAK omni bar/ Bogan, nu-era, and impact Stands
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Re: 3 foot split omnis stage lip Hunter and Amendola?
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2015, 12:58:18 PM »
Ha, yeah Charlie is in my imaginary all-star screw-face band.  As imaginary producer, I'm always open to suggestions for other great 'facers'.  Tony Monaco is a shoe-in on the B3, possibly the best face man of any musician, Diz on horn (honorary), other spots tend to be revolving positions. 
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

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Re: 3 foot split omnis stage lip Hunter and Amendola?
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2015, 01:03:10 PM »
Glad it all worked out. They must be bringin' the heat. We're shooting for 116 today!
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Re: 3 foot split omnis stage lip Hunter and Amendola?
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2015, 01:08:34 PM »
Ouch. Grew up there, nasty. Enjoy the show if you're going, well worth it!
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Re: 3 foot split omnis stage lip Hunter and Amendola?
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2015, 01:58:07 PM »
I don't have the OMs--just the CM3s which to me are very pleasing.  I recorded a pianist with DPA4061s and CM3s this week.  Pianist chose the CM3 recording.  The small body of the OM, the feedback on GS, and the present price of the OMs based on exchange rates, folks might ought to be looking harder at them. 

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Re: 3 foot split omnis stage lip Hunter and Amendola?
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2015, 02:15:15 PM »
Agree, I'm really impressed. With chopped xlrs these can be lo pro-d. Even without very small.
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Re: 3 foot split omnis stage lip Hunter and Amendola?
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2015, 02:22:54 PM »
OM 1 copy good, dpa better. Glad I ran them. Wmod 661 sounds amazing alone.
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Re: 3 foot split omnis stage lip Hunter and Amendola?
« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2015, 07:34:43 AM »
Nice. The omni's vs the cards are gonna definitely have a different flavor to them. Omni's tend to have a more "relaxed" feel. Better/flatter/truer bass, but less detailed imaging. Directional mics from the stage lip tend to sound crispier, but omni's sound more natural to me. Nice to have both recordings to choose from. Of course it's all personal taste. I often go back and forth between what i like best. Enjoy.

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Re: 3 foot split omnis stage lip Hunter and Amendola?
« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2015, 12:23:09 PM »
Nice. The omni's vs the cards are gonna definitely have a different flavor to them. Omni's tend to have a more "relaxed" feel. Better/flatter/truer bass, but less detailed imaging. Directional mics from the stage lip tend to sound crispier, but omni's sound more natural to me. Nice to have both recordings to choose from. Of course it's all personal taste. I often go back and forth between what i like best. Enjoy.

Totally agree, nice to have different flavors,  both good
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Offline MakersMarc

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Re: 3 foot split omnis stage lip Hunter and Amendola?
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2015, 12:25:54 PM »
Oh, I'd be happy to upload what ever you have to the LMA.  Have you thought to mix the two sources?  Maybe the omni's a little under the DPA?  I've been doing that lately and I like it, but as you well recall, YMMV.

Cool Dave, really appreciate that. I have speed and computer issues, so no uploading for me right now. Can you PM your address? I finished dropping the 4022 copy down, I'll do the omni today and get them out Monday. Anything you want to do to play around with mixing is great, I've not s clue. I just barely learned how to transfer on the computer..... ::)
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Re: 3 foot split omnis stage lip Hunter and Amendola?
« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2015, 06:15:03 PM »
I'm a Luddite with three d's.  :D
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Offline MIQ

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Re: 3 foot split omnis stage lip Hunter and Amendola? - Use a J-Disc
« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2015, 01:25:53 AM »
Omni's tend to have a more "relaxed" feel. Better/flatter/truer bass, but less detailed imaging. Directional mics from the stage lip tend to sound crispier, but omni's sound more natural to me.

Caught Charlie and Scott here in Phoenix last week.  I wanted to get the natural bass extension of omnis with improved imaging.  Since Charlie has been allowing stage lip recording, I ran my home brew Jecklin disc equipped with DPA SMK4060 omnis. 

See attached pic.  audBall ran his MG actives above the J-disc. 

I'm very happy with the recording and it sounds great over headphones too.  Comments welcome. 

http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=580463

-MIQ


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Re: 3 foot split omnis stage lip Hunter and Amendola?
« Reply #29 on: June 24, 2015, 01:32:24 AM »
I upped the J-disc recording to LMA for easier listening.

https://archive.org/details/ch2015-06-18.MIQ.DPA4060.flac16

Everybody knows track 12 "Let's Go" by the Cars for example. 

What I've noticed:
 
1. The bass is pretty mono and centered but not focused and not where the bass string amp was located in the soundfield.  It was on the right side of the disk.

2. The drums and gtr string amp image pretty well. With the drums spread from left to a little right of center at times, and the gtr on the right.  Drums sound a little distant compared to the gtr and bass amps. 

3. The tonal balance is pretty close to what I recall from the show.  Charlie likes a lot of bass.  Me too.  ;D

4.  The crowd images pretty accurately.  Most people were on the disc's left side. 

5.  Great performance.  I can't figure out how Charlie can walk the bass line while simultaneously jamming on gtr.  WTF?  I've seen him a  few times when he's made it to Phx, and he is always amazing to see live.  I see parallels with the two hands in piano playing, but it's different.  It's like having a piano player's left hand fingers divided between Charlie's left and right hands and the piano player right hand also divided between both of Charlie's hands.  The position of those piano player fingers are constantly changing on each hand as he is playing. How can he keep track of two musical ideas (lead and rhythm) while simultaneously figuring out how to create the fingering in both hands to do it??  So much of it is improvised.  :o  Scott is so expressive, almost melodic on the drums.  He's able to elicit so many different sounds from his kit, often in unconventional ways. It's an amazing amount of music for only two performers.

-MIQ

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Re: 3 foot split omnis stage lip Hunter and Amendola?
« Reply #30 on: June 24, 2015, 09:32:16 AM »
Yeah, incredible technique when really paying attention to what he's doing on the instrument.  I have no idea how he can be of multiple minds simultaneously like that, on top of the shear dexterity of it, and have huge respect for anyone who can work more than one limb at a time independently, simply because it is such a foreign and difficult thing for me.  I have a hard enough time trying to make my thumb and fingers work independently on a normal guitar working out stuff like Doc Watson's Deep River Blues.  Very simple and repetitive in comparison to what he's doing.

The analogy with two-hand /split-mind piano technique is apt, organ more specifically.  He's been highly influenced by the classic soul-groove organist techniques and sound.  I like that he's gravitated to more of a straight guitar sound with the 7-string over the past decade or so, but for years when he was playing the 8-string his sound was even more directly organ like, with lots of leslie-like chorus effects.  Notice the way in which he comps on the high strings (what would be the organ/piano left hand) when concentrating on complex bass lines.  Always sounds very organ-like to me in the way he does that, even though the timbre is more typical of straight effects-less jazz guitar sound these days.

Looking forward to giving your recording a listen MIQ, yours too D.
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Offline MakersMarc

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Re: 3 foot split omnis stage lip Hunter and Amendola?
« Reply #31 on: June 24, 2015, 09:28:24 PM »
Nice report.  Sounds like you still know how to ride that bike.  ;)
Here's my last CH outing w/Previte and Meyers... and a sample of The Face.  Those Shweps DFC in the photo are Snowman's.  We rolled from row three.

Sounds great Dave!
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Re: 3 foot split omnis stage lip Hunter and Amendola?
« Reply #32 on: June 24, 2015, 11:29:26 PM »

The analogy with two-hand /split-mind piano technique is apt, organ more specifically.  He's been highly influenced by the classic soul-groove organist techniques and sound.  I like that he's gravitated to more of a straight guitar sound with the 7-string over the past decade or so, but for years when he was playing the 8-string his sound was even more directly organ like, with lots of leslie-like chorus effects.  Notice the way in which he comps on the high strings (what would be the organ/piano left hand) when concentrating on complex bass lines.  Always sounds very organ-like to me in the way he does that, even though the timbre is more typical of straight effects-less jazz guitar sound these days.

Yea the "Ready, Set, Shango" and "Natty Dred" days had a lot more of an organ feel with more rotory effects and organ sound.  I like the pure tube gtr sounds Charlie is using these days.  Really expressive, clean to dirty, with changes of the volume knob and right hand attack.  No doubt he's got tone and continues to evolve.

-Miq
« Last Edit: June 25, 2015, 02:52:45 AM by MIQ »

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Re: 3 foot split omnis stage lip Hunter and Amendola?
« Reply #33 on: June 25, 2015, 01:15:32 AM »

I was looking at your pic and the first thing I saw was that your 4060's seemed to be flying quite a ways away from the face of the disc.  I was always under the impression that the caps needed to be within a couple inches of the disc face to come close to harvesting a pronounced stereo image. (The strings hanging from the J-disk... 2" distance guides? Nice.)  Perhaps that was what was was in play as you remarked about the bass being centered or at least not where you saw it.  Then again, the low notes will tend to flow through the disc with impunity so perhaps the spacing of the caps is not really affecting the bass pick up. 

I'm happy w/the sound field as it is.  Probably very close to what you'd hear sitting in that spot.  I've got a slight preference to cans over NFM listening but not overwhelmingly so. 

* Oh, yeah. Fat bass centered to just right of center.  Not sure I'm bothered by what I hear compared to what i "know".  With the drums set  up opposite CH, I'd expect the bass player to stand in the middle anyway!  ;D

Hi Ben,

Thanks for taking a listen and writing back.

The pic I posted is a little deceiving.  The caps that are easy to spot are a pair of MG actives that audBall was running clamped to the top of the stand I was running the J-disk on.  The DPAs are really small and are wound around thin enamal coated copper (aka magnet) wire coming out of the base of the disk.  The 4060s are so small that you would need to zoom way into that pic to see them.  Attached is a closer pic of the rig.  Zoom in to see the magnet wire ad mics.  The R09HR and battery box are in the small black bag hanging at  the bottom of the stand.  As you noted, the mics are spaced off the center of the disc at the distance of the string guides (~6.5" total).  They are just so small it's hard to see. 

I think the 6.5" spacing makes for a good headphone listen since that's about how far your ears are spaced.  I've read that Jecklin later preferred a much bigger mic spacing (like 14") and a slightly bigger baffle.  That kind of spacing will give you enough time difference to image about 70 degrees of the performance angle within the center 75% of the speaker playback width.  See first atached pic of the RA_75% plot from Mic Tools for a pair of omnis spaced at 36cm (14").  The full recording angle is just over 180 degrees but the majority of the stereo image (central 75%) is occupied by the the central 70 degree's worth of performers. 

Shrinking the spacing to the 6.5" = 16cm I used for this recording gives the final attached pic from Mic Tools.  Now the recording angle and RA_75% have both blown up to over 180 degees and the imaging that is relying on arrival time differences has collapsed to the center (mono).  I'm pretty convinced this is why the bass is centered and the gtr and drums image accurately.  Our brains rely on arrival time diffs to determine directionality for low frequencies since the levels are almost always the same.  It's really hard to block/baffle low freq and our little heads aren't going to so our brains use arrival time differences to try to localize the sound.  Since the omni spacing I've used is small compared to that necessary to create the arrival time differences (when played back over stereo speakers) that our brain is looking for at low frequencies, the low frequencies collaps to the middle. 

At mid and high frequencies our brain starts to rely on the sum of the level and arrival time differences between ears to determine directionality.  Here the small baffle starts working and shades the mic on the far side of the sound source.  This combined with the arival time differences allows for better imaging. 

Makes more sense after thinking more about it and looking at the Recording Angle and RA_75% for spaced omnis (arrival time only).  It may be why Jecklin started to use a wider spacing.  The low freq info starts to image better.  At the same time he needed to increase the baffle diameter to keep a similar angle of shading at mid and high freqs for this wider mic spacing.  The baffle is never going to "baffle" at low frequencies so you'd better space the omnis to get the arrival time differences you need at low freqs.

Again all this points back to the discussions on using a ceter mic pair in collaboration with a widely spaced pair of omni's.  I bet a wide spaced pair of omnis crossed over at 500Hz or so to the Jecklin disk would be interesting to listen to...

I like your thoughts about resolving the center bass imaging in our brains as "well that's where the bass player was".  I thought that same thought when I started listening and still do to some extent when I'm not thinking about what it "should be". 
 
Miq
« Last Edit: June 25, 2015, 03:00:21 AM by MIQ »

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Re: 3 foot split omnis stage lip Hunter and Amendola?
« Reply #34 on: July 01, 2015, 03:24:45 AM »
Thanks Ben.  The 6' disc sounds like an interesting beast that, like you wrote, may not be appropriate for the club.  ;D. Charlie was already hesitating on the 1' disc since it could disrupt the audiences' view.  I'm glad he was flexible.  We asked the people sitting behind the disc if it was distracting and they were totally cool and supportive of capturing the performance.

Glad you like the sound too.

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Re: 3 foot split omnis stage lip Hunter and Amendola?
« Reply #35 on: July 01, 2015, 02:12:26 PM »
Here's a link to an album with more pictures from the 6/18 show Miq and I caught. They might give a little better idea of the mic placement. I'm currently working on pulling a few unaffected samples from my recording for comparison to Miq's 4060 jecklin setup. I ran M20 cards DIN about 1' behind his mics, roughly 6" higher.

http://imgur.com/a/Oxy0i

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Re: 3 foot split omnis stage lip Hunter and Amendola?
« Reply #36 on: July 01, 2015, 10:40:40 PM »
Thanks audBall.

Nice pics of the show.  The heart shaped cymbal is nuts.  ;D

Looking forward to hearing your M20 DIN samples.

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Re: 3 foot split omnis stage lip Hunter and Amendola?
« Reply #37 on: July 01, 2015, 11:06:32 PM »
After looking at the pictures and listening to the show, I'm a bit stunned at the recording with the disk being so close to the floor monitor.  I would have thought the recording would have been mostly a capture of the monitor, but find myself surprised at the balance between the guitar and the drums with that disk position.  But I guess if the disk had been on the other side of the monitor, then it really would have been mostly drums in the recording. 

Did you arrive at this mic position by listening on headphones first, prior experience....?

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Re: 3 foot split omnis stage lip Hunter and Amendola?
« Reply #38 on: July 02, 2015, 12:40:25 AM »
Hi rocks

I didn't think the monitors were being used, at least not the one next to the mics in front of Charlie.  Most of the reflections from the amps or drums off the monitor's face and sides were not directed toward the mics.  Charlie is basically sitting in front of his amps and just a few feet from Scott.  What would he want in the monitor?  Also, from listening to great Charlie Hunter recordings from Ted G and others, I've noticed that the stage lip recordings are really nice and the mic Charlie uses to make band introductions and announcements is always pulled out of the FOH mix and obviously out of the monitors on stage.  At the end of the first set in this recording (the first 10 seconds of track 10) you can hear the FOH guy trying to get the announcement mic turned on and pulled up in the FOH speakers.  It's crackly and odd sounding at first so Charlie tries to smooth the transition by saying "Well fantastic, I like that style..."   ;D

You are right about not wanting to put it on the other side of the monitor since it would have been much closer to the drums.  When we placed the stand I tried to point the center of the recording angle directly between the gtr/bass amps and the drums while also trying to match the distance from the drums to the mics and the amps to the mics.  This forced the stand against the monitor.  I originally had it a little further onto the stage.  Charlie asked if we could move it slightly back so there'd be no chance of him stepping on them.   :)  This pulled them even closer to the monitor but it was the best we could negotiate.   

I set the line input recording level to be unity gain (Input~40 on the R09HR) hit record a few minutes before the show and faced the mesh bag holding the recorder/battery box so I could see if the R09HR overload light engaged.  I never saw it overload but at intermission I lowered the gain to 35 (slightly below unity).  When I normalized the files I think it added about 4 dB or so.  I was happy I was conservative with the gain. 

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Re: 3 foot split omnis stage lip Hunter and Amendola?
« Reply #39 on: July 10, 2015, 03:08:50 PM »
Here's a link to an album with more pictures from the 6/18 show Miq and I caught. They might give a little better idea of the mic placement. I'm currently working on pulling a few unaffected samples from my recording for comparison to Miq's 4060 jecklin setup. I ran M20 cards DIN about 1' behind his mics, roughly 6" higher.

http://imgur.com/a/Oxy0i

I finally got around to extracting a few (mostly) unaffected samples from the first three tracks of the first set. The zipped FLACs are 24bit/48kHz, the ZIP file is 50MB. The only editing done to the files was to increase the gain a few db overall, not individually, and of course the fades. I can pull out more samples if there is interest.

The only digi-noise audible is on "...track2c.flac" @ 0:26.

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« Last Edit: July 10, 2015, 05:41:00 PM by audBall »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: 3 foot split omnis stage lip Hunter and Amendola?
« Reply #40 on: July 10, 2015, 04:46:00 PM »
Whenever I've seen Charlie the band usually hasn't used stage monitors.  I have considered re-purposing an unused monitor, near the position of the one pictured in audBall's photos, as a wide Jecklin-disk with omnis positioned on either side of it.  I suspect that would work quite well, and visually it would be very low profile too.
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Re: 3 foot split omnis stage lip Hunter and Amendola?
« Reply #41 on: July 10, 2015, 05:19:23 PM »
Thanks MIQ.

Hmm...recording on stage with fake monitors.  That is so stealth.

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Re: 3 foot split omnis stage lip Hunter and Amendola?
« Reply #42 on: July 27, 2015, 01:48:55 PM »
Finally got around to Marc's Charlie Hunter project.

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=174086.new#new

Ben and Marc,

I'm listening to it right now.  Sounds great!  Thank you for posting.

MIQ

 

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