Topic: Weird recording - pretty much zero bass

[waltmon]

I've seen this from hyper cardioids previously, when you run the signal a tad hot there is a kind of bass cancellation effect.   I was running 150 > V-2 > 744T and a pair of 461s directly into the 744T...the 461 channels sound amazing...almost FOB from the soundboard area.  And like I said pretty much zero bass on the 150's...crystal clarity zero bass. I've run this combo many times into a PDR 1000 and this never happened.  My first thought was I had inadvertently used bass roll off or something, but I checked it over numerous times and found nothing wrong in the settings. I ran the 461's channels 1 and 2 and the v-2 input to 3 and 4 via the mini XLRs.

  Only thing hinky I see was I chose the poly file versus recording to mono channels...I can't see how that would effect sound.  Interested in any thoughts or opinions.


   

[jbell]

I've always thought the 150's lacked in the bass department.  Maybe just that and not a setting problem.

[flipp]

I've always thought the 150's lacked in the bass department.  Maybe just that and not a setting problem.

My one complaint about the 150s, especially if you inadvertantly () use a HP setting. Hopefully I learned a lesson after doing that once and won't do it again. I definitely wasn't running the signal hot either, just seems to be a characteristic of the 150s.

[waltmon]

HP - you mean high pass?  I checked all the settings...really weird.

[waltmon]

LA Forum had awesome sound by the way...totally impressed.

[Craig T]

I recall running a comp between the km150, km140 and tlm170(hyper) for a Phish show back around '99 and it was startling how much less low end the 150s had compared to the other two.  Really drastic roll off below midbass freqs.

[danlynch]

And yet when I ran these exact mics with the Mini-Me, people were overjoyed with the clarity and depth of the bass.

[waltmon]

That's why it's so odd...I loved the 150> v2 pairing....I made great recordings in sheds as well as bars, small venues and places like the Philly Spectrum...this is a first..I did an FOB in Frisco of Phish in Fall 2013 and it was amazing.  Ran the same set-up in a bar here with a country band - no issues.

   Its got to be a 744T setting OR I was running a tad hot.  It's perfectly crystal clear, just lack of bass.   Agreed Dan, 150 mini-me is a great combo.

[Gutbucket]

I doubt that it's because levels were hot.  I'd bet it's either a HP filter on the 744 or just the response of the 150's combined with the response of the PA and room.  Like the others, I hear a the significant roll-off down low with the 150's, which I think partly accounts for some of the general clear/crisp personality.  If no HP filter, given that the bass was present at the recording location through the 461s, then the bass is probably there in the 150 recording, only significantly lower in level than you'd like.  In that case you can probably bring it back into better balance successfully with a low-frequency shelf-eq tuned to the appropriate corner frequency, Q and gain.

^^
That's quite similar the DPA 4098 hypers I'm using, which I'd loosely categorize as somewhat similar to the 150 sound.  Low end is rolled off pretty strongly at any significant distance and that can either sound nicely balanced or rather bass-weak depending on the situation.  In situations where it sounds bass-weak, the bass is still there and can be brought back up to where it sounds balanced with eq.  Not to the same extent as the solid bottom octave from an omni, which I'm usually running along with them, but more or less in line with the low end from a typical cardioid.

[danlynch]

I assume he went digitally from the V2 to the 744, which means that the settings on the 744 are irrelevant.     The most likely culprit is the HPF filter on the V2, an easy switch to accidentally engage.

[johnw]

V2 is analog only. V3 is digital. Maybe out of phase?

[waltmon]

  I just read a description of out of phase and that pretty much perfectly describes the sound I got.  2 things I'm wondering now - would the proximity of one mic pair to the other make a difference and does the fact I recorded to a poly wav in stead of 4 mono files make a difference?  No issues at all with this set up until the 2nd pair of mics were added.  I was basically running both pairs 90 degree din with the cards on the outside and the hypers inside.

[carlbeck]

Walt, I doubt the other pair being close had any affect, I do this at almost every show I record. It sounds more like polarity if HPF wasn't used.

[waltmon]

What would effect the polarity?

[waltmon]

I DID run some Mic cables O never use that have been in storage for several years. That's The only variable I changed from last outing...they were a pair built for me want back when.

[Gutbucket]

Recording to a polyphonic WAV instead of writing multiple mono WAVs (or two stereo WAVs) won't matter.

Phase won't matter in isolation (each channel played back on its own, all by itself in isolation) but will if:
1) one channel of the pair has reverse polarity in comparison to the other channel (possible but not likely in this case- stereo imaging will also be all wonky, sound will be phasy).
 or
2) if the two stereo sources are mixed together and one source has inverted polarity with respect to the other.  That's more likely.

Do you hear the lack of low end when listening to the 150 source alone, or only when mixed together with the 461 source?

[capnhook]

2) if the two stereo sources are mixed together and one source has inverted polarity with respect to the other.  That's more likely.

If they are mixed and you have this problem, try door #2......that's my bet.  It has happened to me......

Anf if you're using cables you don't normally use, start there.

[Gutbucket]

I DID run some Mic cables O never use that have been in storage for several years. That's The only variable I changed from last outing...they were a pair built for me want back when.

DING!  Check the continuity of those cables with a ohmmeter or continuity tester.  Make sure pin 2 at the input of the cable is connected to pin 2 at the output, and pin 3 to pin 3.  If the connection between these pins are crossed, the cable will invert polarity, but will otherwise work normally.

[waltmon]

Will check the cables...I do remember that one did not lock into the mic itself well.  The recording is listenable as all 4 tracks, but the bass goes away when played as separate pairs

[carlbeck]

I DID run some Mic cables O never use that have been in storage for several years. That's The only variable I changed from last outing...they were a pair built for me want back when.

DING!  Check the continuity of those cables with a ohmmeter or continuity tester.  Make sure pin 2 at the input of the cable is connected to pin 2 at the output, and pin 3 to pin 3.  If the connection between these pins are crossed, the cable will invert polarity, but will otherwise work normally.

Ding ding, as Gut said, check those cables & hopefully that will be your problem.

[waltmon]

Thanks for all the input guys...I'm going to bring these into work and look at them with a meter manyana.