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Author Topic: Preamp Comp: Naiant littlebox ($179) vs. Grace Lunatec V3 ($1525)  (Read 33618 times)

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Offline Todd R

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I just got my Naiant littlebox a couple days ago and ran it last night for STS9.  I decided to not waste any time and to do a comp right out of the gate.  Discussions of the just-released Naiant littlebox preamp can be found in these threads:
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,122871.0.html
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,118862.0.html
And more on the Naiant website:
http://www.naiant.com/studiostore/microphoneamplifiers.html

Jon at Naiant (mshilarious here on ts.com) can custom configure quite a lot with his littlebox preamps.  I should note that his standard design is to use an Analog Devices op amp, but I asked that he use a Burr-Brown instrumentation amp in the design (INA111).  The Burr-Brown amp he used is in the same family as the Burr-Brown amp used by the Lunatec V3, but is a lower power version.  I wanted to compare the littlebox to the V3 for this reason, and also because I ran the V3 for 6 or 7 years and am very familiar with it.  The littlebox certainly wins on price and size, and battery power since mine is configured with an internal battery that should last for at least 10-12 hours when running phantom power at 48v.  For mics that will allow it, it can run at 20v phantom, and will have much longer runtimes this way.

For the comparison, I borrowed a friends pair of Gefell m210's and his Lunatec V3 (which had been my V3 for many years  :'( ), and those together with my Gefell m210's and littlebox were used to run a comp of the littlebox compared to the V3 using my Oade-mod R44 as a recorder.  All 4 mics were on the same t-bar within an inch or so of each other, both mic pairs in same pattern, same stand, etc, etc.  I really would have liked to switch which particular mic pair went with which preamp at set break, but unfortunately STS9 only played one set.  Mic cables were all copper cables (though one pair belden and one pair canare), and all interconnects were teflon-jacketed silver-clad copper.  All 4 channels on the Oade R44 were modded the same, to the best of my knowledge.  So it wasn't a perfect comp, but pretty close.  Next time around I'd like to be able to switch up the gefell m210 pairs, but hopefully all 4 of the mics used are fairly well matched.

Anyway, that is the big backstory since most people aren't probably too familiar with the Naiant littlebox.  I'd really like to hear people's thoughts on this preamp comp.  I've put together two different tracks as part of the comp, with the tracks simply listed as pre1, pre2, pre3, pre4.  There are only two preamps used, but since there are 2 tracks, I labeled them all separately.

The comp flac files (16bit) are available off megaupload here:  http://www.megaupload.com/?d=X8VEWS8Q

Please post your thoughts!!
Mics: Microtech Gefell m20/m21 (nbob/pfa actives), Line Audio CM3, Church CA-11 cards
Preamp:  none <sniff>
Recorders:  Sound Devices MixPre-6, Sony PCM-M10, Zoom H4nPro

Offline sanaka

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Re: Preamp Comp: Naiant littlebox ($179) vs. Grace Lunatec V3 ($1525)
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2009, 06:07:08 AM »
Nice comp and nice recordings, thanks!

I prefer pre2 and pre4. I'd describe that sound as more laid back yet detailed, more lush, versus a more forward, brittle sound on pre1&3. I have to assume 2&4 are the V3. If not, I'd say Naiant's David has slayed Grace's Goliath. 1&3 are also very good though, so considering the price difference this is almost true regardless!

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Sanaka

Offline setboy

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Re: Preamp Comp: Naiant littlebox ($179) vs. Grace Lunatec V3 ($1525)
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2009, 09:36:33 AM »
I like 3 and 2. Not sure why. 3&2 seem to have more of a  full body sound to me.  Though I think both sound great! I'm sure I would be happy with either if i had one of them.

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Re: Preamp Comp: Naiant littlebox ($179) vs. Grace Lunatec V3 ($1525)
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2009, 09:55:02 AM »
I like 3 and 2. Not sure why. 3&2 seem to have more of a  full body sound to me.  Though I think both sound great! I'm sure I would be happy with either if i had one of them.
Ditto.
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Offline dennisrtyler

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Re: Preamp Comp: Naiant littlebox ($179) vs. Grace Lunatec V3 ($1525)
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2009, 11:27:06 AM »
track 1 - i like how 2 seems to hold it together a little more in the low low. punchier where 1 is fuller.
track 2 - "             3         "                        "                                "                               4           "
 
4. im so abrasive i make sandpaper nervous.

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Offline Chuck

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Re: Preamp Comp: Naiant littlebox ($179) vs. Grace Lunatec V3 ($1525)
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2009, 11:55:02 AM »
I hear sources #1 and #4 as the same pre-amp.
So, a assume that #2 and #3 are the same pre-amp.

On this source material I like #2 and #3 better. They sound more open, with a better sound stage. Not as dark as #1 and #4.
I can see liking #1 and #4 better if the source was acoustic or was less bass heavy.
 
I hear a slightly right sound stage bias in sources #1 and #4, too.  That may account for my hearing #2 and #3 as have a wider sound stage.

Great comp Todd!
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, Sennheiser MKE 2 elements,  Audix M1290-o, Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, Naiant MSH-1O, Naiant AKG Active cables, Church CA-11 (cardioid), (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlebox, Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
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Offline a-dub

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Re: Preamp Comp: Naiant littlebox ($179) vs. Grace Lunatec V3 ($1525)
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2009, 02:42:37 PM »
Wow both sound really good!

I hear sources #1 and #4 as the same pre-amp.
So, a assume that #2 and #3 are the same pre-amp.

On this source material I like #2 and #3 better.

^ I agree.

Interesting to see how this comp plays out. Thanks for the comparisons Todd!
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Re: Preamp Comp: Naiant littlebox ($179) vs. Grace Lunatec V3 ($1525)
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2009, 05:52:46 PM »
I will say one thing.....there is much difference......wait a 1346$ difference....that's incredible 
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Offline rjp

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Re: Preamp Comp: Naiant littlebox ($179) vs. Grace Lunatec V3 ($1525)
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2009, 07:11:32 PM »
I'd give the nod to 2&3 as well - they seem just a tad brighter, particularly when things are quiet. I also noticed the rightward bias in 1&4 - a little bit of postprocessing could clean that up. I'm wondering if that might be microphone or cable variations? I'm a bit of a cable skeptic myself, though...

I'd be quite happy to have either preamp, though. Even though I'm not sure which one is which yet, I'm damn impressed, even if the littlebox turned out to be 1&4.

My listening chain for this was: Foobar2000 > E-MU 0404 USB > Beyerdynamic DT 770 Pro/80
Mics: AKG Perception 170, Naiant X-X, Sound Professionals SP-TFB-2
Preamps: Naiant Littlebox
Recorders: Olympus LS-10
Interfaces: Focusrite Saffire Pro 14, Focusrite Scarlett 2i2

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Re: Preamp Comp: Naiant littlebox ($179) vs. Grace Lunatec V3 ($1525)
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2009, 07:34:04 PM »
I'm in on preferring 2/3 sound

Offline Kindguy

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Re: Preamp Comp: Naiant littlebox ($179) vs. Grace Lunatec V3 ($1525)
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2009, 08:08:58 PM »
Todd if you decide to sell it. PM me

TDS!

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Offline nottingham

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Re: Preamp Comp: Naiant littlebox ($179) vs. Grace Lunatec V3 ($1525)
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2009, 11:02:21 PM »
Buy one from Jon. The price is right...
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Re: Preamp Comp: Naiant littlebox ($179) vs. Grace Lunatec V3 ($1525)
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2009, 12:54:51 AM »
I liked 2&3 clearer in the mids and not rolled of at the top. 2&3 sounded louder to me also?

Offline cottle

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Re: Preamp Comp: Naiant littlebox ($179) vs. Grace Lunatec V3 ($1525)
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2009, 02:01:14 AM »
I like 2 and 4. 

Offline Neilyboy

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Re: Preamp Comp: Naiant littlebox ($179) vs. Grace Lunatec V3 ($1525)
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2009, 08:23:14 AM »
2 and 3 have my pick!

/edit.. had to laugh at the $1346 comment

Neil
« Last Edit: July 27, 2009, 08:26:16 AM by Neilyboy »
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Offline Todd R

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Re: Preamp Comp: Naiant littlebox ($179) vs. Grace Lunatec V3 ($1525)
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2009, 03:45:11 PM »
If the gain on each channel was not equalized in post, it's probably that littlebox isn't as easily set to identical gain.  In my tests, setting the two gain knobs by eye I can generally get within 0.3dB.  I figure most microphones are within that tolerance or worse, but if you combine those tolerances it would be audible as a stereo slant.

Certainly it would not be a result of cables, unless they were seriously defective. 

Sorry, I tried to get this comp out before our upcoming move took over events.  In the way of more detail:

- the show was recorded in the front of the soundboard cage (inside, slightly left) at the Fillmore in Denver.  I didn't think to measure or really estimate, but I'd say we were about 60' back
- all four mics were on a darktrain t-bar, with the two sets interleaved.  left of one pair, left of the other pair, right of the 1st pair, right of the 2nd pair.  As such the outer left and outer right mics (which were of two different pairs) were pretty open, whereas the inner left and inner right mics probably had a bit of shadowing going on.  I don't know if this would have effected the stereo image.
- I did post processing to match the relative gain.  No other post processing was done.  Both channels of a particular mic pair were matched on an average rms basis.  On this basis, I find it somewhat odd that people are finding the image to lean to the right since the channels were matched in post, but I'm not sure what effect this post balancing would have (there was at most about 2db of boosting done for the matching, though I forget the exact amount).
-each of the two sources was matched to within 0.1db of each other, again on an average RMS basis.  Then both sources were boosted to near 0dbFS on an absolute basis.  Since I tried to match the level of each source on an RMS basis, one source has absolute peaks at about -0.1db, where the other has absolute peaks near -0.3 or -0.5db, depending on the channel.  Again, since they were matched on an average RMS level, I would think that they would appear to have the same average loudness (though I also find one source to sound a bit louder subjectively, not sure why).

Also, as I think I mentioned, since STS9 only played one set, the individual mic pairs used for each preamp might also account for some of the sound differences.  I'm hoping that mics at the price point of these gefells are all fairly well matched, at least in terms of tonality.  Still, I'd like to get the chance to switch around the mics at set break so we could try to understand how those differences in mics effect the comp

Thanks for everyone's input so far.  I would love to hear more, so I'll keep the sources a mystery for a bit longer.  If those folks who already responded would like to know which is which (and agree to keep quiet for a little bit longer), drop me a line and I'll try to let you know.  But I'm in the process of moving, my internet is down at my house, and I already had to take a half day off work today for closing, so it might be until tomorrow until I can get replies out, so please bear with me.
Mics: Microtech Gefell m20/m21 (nbob/pfa actives), Line Audio CM3, Church CA-11 cards
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Offline L Ron Hoover

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Re: Preamp Comp: Naiant littlebox ($179) vs. Grace Lunatec V3 ($1525)
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2009, 09:05:57 PM »
I'm in the club with 2 & 3 being the V3.

Just curious, and sorry if I missed it. Were any windscreens used on the mics, and if so, were they different?

I am quite amazed at how different they sound. Gotta love the Gefell's no matter what's run behind them!

1 and 4, 1 especially, seem to have a transformer looseness sort of like a SD MP2.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2009, 09:55:20 PM by L Ron Hoover »

Offline jlykos

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Re: Preamp Comp: Naiant littlebox ($179) vs. Grace Lunatec V3 ($1525)
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2009, 02:01:40 AM »
From listening to this on my Audio Technica ATH-M50 headphones, I think that tracks 2 and 3 are the same source and 1 and 4 are the same source.  2 and 3 have a more up-front presentation with a strident midrange that seems disconnected from the low end.  I don't know if 2 and 3 have a more detailed midrange, or whether it is just so much louder than the other frequencies that I think it is more detailed when it is just plain louder.  1 and 4 are more coherent with a cohesive presentation and greater smoothness across the tonal spectrum.  I agree with what one poster said about how 1 and 4 are slightly biased to the right side, especially with track 4.  For my tastes, I prefer 1 and 4 on my headphones.  An ideal unit would be one that combines the midrange detail of 2 and 3 with the cohesion of 1 and 4, IMHO.  Unfortunately, Oade and Aeta are no longer making these units.  I may change my mind if I listen to the compilation on a different playback system.

My inherent biases are 100% for the Gefells, as they are the best microphones in the world.  On the other hand, I admit to preferring other preamplifiers over the Grace V3, which is why I ran a MiniMe in the past and now run a PSP-2 in front of mine.  The V3 is a very fine piece of equipment, but I prefer a different sonic signature.

I don't know which sources go with which preamps; I just like 1 and 4 better.
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Offline sanaka

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Re: Preamp Comp: Naiant littlebox ($179) vs. Grace Lunatec V3 ($1525)
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2009, 05:39:00 AM »
I don't know if I just mixed up which numbers I had decided on before or if I've actually changed my mind, but on longer and super close listening I have to agree that it must be tracks 1&4 belong to one preamp and 2&3 to the other. I actually drew a little chart of tracks versus qualities: bass, brightness, and how the waveform looked in the DAW. Definitely 2&3 to me are brighter, and their waveforms also appear "fatter", whereas 1&4 have a skinnier looking waveform and IMO a less forward sound with punchier bass.

I lean towards the 1&4 sound, but can't arrive at a real preference!

Peace,
Sanaka


Offline Todd R

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Re: Preamp Comp: Naiant littlebox ($179) vs. Grace Lunatec V3 ($1525)
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2009, 06:10:38 PM »
It looks like I might be without internet pretty soon until Monday, so I thought I'd post the results.  Thanks for everyone's inputs on this.  FWIW, I also liked pre2 and pre3 on these comps, overall.  My listening was on a pair of Audioengine A5's fed from my R44 (in a room where pretty much everything is packed up, so it's live as hell and really echo-y), and on a pair of Grado 225's fed from my iMac.  Ideally, I'd like to listen more on my usual playback system after our move is done, and ideally I'd like to make more comps to have more data points.

That said, results below:





























Pre2 and Pre3 were the littlebox (burr-brown edition).  Pre1 and Pre4 were the Lunatec V3.

I thought the results were pretty surprising.  Surprising on one hand since the two sources to me sounded pretty different, and I expected them to be closer in sound as they are both based on the same current-feedback, instrumentation amp topology.  And surprising that I like many other here preferred the littlebox.  I do agree with some of the comments about the littlebox midrange -- on one hand I like the detail, on another, I'm afraid on some sources it will sound a bit strident.  But the LB source seemed to me to have a fullness about it that I don't think was simply a result of a more prominent midrange.  The LB also to me had a much bigger, more involving soundstage.

I've been a huge fan of the V3 for many years, so I'm not willing to proclaim it inferior to the LB on the basis of one test.  But I think the LB clearly is a very good preamp in terms of cost, size, battery life (and ability like mine to have an internal battery), and sound.  I still hope to run a number of additional comps over the next few months, against the V3 if I can borrow it again, and against my EAA PSP2 and against the internal preamps of my Oade-modded R44.
Mics: Microtech Gefell m20/m21 (nbob/pfa actives), Line Audio CM3, Church CA-11 cards
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Offline Todd R

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Re: Preamp Comp: Naiant littlebox ($179) vs. Grace Lunatec V3 ($1525)
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2009, 06:16:18 PM »

Just curious, and sorry if I missed it. Were any windscreens used on the mics, and if so, were they different?


Nope, indoor show, and no windscreens used.
Mics: Microtech Gefell m20/m21 (nbob/pfa actives), Line Audio CM3, Church CA-11 cards
Preamp:  none <sniff>
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Re: Preamp Comp: Naiant littlebox ($179) vs. Grace Lunatec V3 ($1525)
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2009, 09:00:47 PM »
Pre2 and Pre3 were the littlebox (burr-brown edition).  Pre1 and Pre4 were the Lunatec V3.

Now I'm even more impressed with the littlebox... wish my financial situation was better right now. When my money supply improves, this is on my short list.

It would be interesting to hear an INA111 vs. AD620 comparison...
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Re: Preamp Comp: Naiant littlebox ($179) vs. Grace Lunatec V3 ($1525)
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2009, 10:24:44 PM »
It would be interesting to hear an INA111 vs. AD620 comparison...

It would be interesting to hear a comparison of various opamps <period>. I've seen some various ones compared here but thats just a small sampling of stuff.
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Offline sanaka

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Re: Preamp Comp: Naiant littlebox ($179) vs. Grace Lunatec V3 ($1525)
« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2009, 11:18:25 PM »
...V3's noise is like 10dB lower and it has 20dB more gain.  But if the microphone's noise level is above littlebox's noise (true for most but not all condensers), that evens up the score quite a lot....

...I never set out to make a TS-2 though.  That's a THAT1512 box that goes full-out with power consumption for low noise and high gain.  That's useful for dynamic mics, but I didn't set out to build a dynamic mic preamp.  If you're driving two phantom-powered mics, you spend your power on the phantom and then you shouldn't need to spend it again on noise and gain because your input signal is hot....

I am amazed by your work, Jon. I think most other preamp makers for the concert taper market ought to be quaking in their boots right now. I think the forward midrange detail of your Littlebox is easily tamed in post as opposed to trying to get more mid detail, if one so desired, from a laid back sound like the V3 in these recordings. So while I slightly prefer the V3's own sound, no way would I pay 8.5x for it!

My thing is I record quiet sources, acoustic stuff, and I'd love to do ambient nature sound stuff if ever I can ratchet my gear into that hig gain/low noise zone. Just having even fairly sensitive condensor mics doesn't quite make that grade. My recent recordings, straight into an R-44, exhibit some hiss due to everything needing to be cranked. So a V3 perhaps gives someone these kind of options. But my mind is mulling on what it would be like to feed an R-44 from a Littlebox, and use some gain from both? FI, both set at a low-noise sweet spot, say ~36dB gain, would give me 72dB, just like a Sound Devices.

The above offered because I know everyone is just so interested in my musings...

Peace,
Sanaka


Offline L Ron Hoover

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Re: Preamp Comp: Naiant littlebox ($179) vs. Grace Lunatec V3 ($1525)
« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2009, 11:39:01 PM »


Pre2 and Pre3 were the littlebox (burr-brown edition).  Pre1 and Pre4 were the Lunatec V3.



I somehow knew had a feeling that was gonna be the case.

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Re: Preamp Comp: Naiant littlebox ($179) vs. Grace Lunatec V3 ($1525)
« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2009, 01:32:46 AM »
The stock amps are slower and thus perhaps less strident.  I never did a direct comparison with INA111 though, so I'm not too sure.  Right now I have my test box with INA217 in one channel and AD620 in the other, that is a crazy combination . . . no, you probably don't want INA217 in your box.

A great comparison would be to take a single mic and split it to L/R.  One channel with INA217 and the other channel with AD620.  So we're comparing a known good preamp, INA217, to your smarter low-power design.

I would love to hear that, recording both ambient sounds and live music.  Listen to each preamp as a mono signal.  We could hear both "transparency" of ambient recording and "musicality", whatever that is...

  Richard
Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

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Offline illconditioned

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Re: Preamp Comp: Naiant littlebox ($179) vs. Grace Lunatec V3 ($1525)
« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2009, 02:35:12 PM »
I don't think I'm going to do that.  INA217 is a chip, not a preamp; I'd have to rework the circuit to optimize it for INA217, otherwise all I would prove is how to mess up INA217.  The V3 uses INA163 I think; that should be close enough.  Although it's likely that INA217 sounds more like INA111 in littlebox than INA163 in the V3.

9V battery life with INA217 would be about two hours; that's not something I want to encourage.  I only dropped in INA217 to validate noise solutions with a discrete front-end I was testing, but that used too much current as well.
I'm not asking for any claims of your amp being equal to a V3.  All I'm saying is that INA217 is a widely accepted chip for (audio) preamps.  Something like the DMIC-20 has that (well, they have an SSM2019, which many people replace with the INA chip).  What I'm suggesting is a comparison between something like the INA217, which is accepted for audio, and something new like your AD instrumentation amp, that is not generally used for audio, but may be a real sleeper.  If it sounds just as good, you've got a much better solution: similar quality sound, but less power, when you don't need as much gain.  A real head-to-head would be the SSM series of chips, but I'm since you've already got a prototype with the INA217, why not use it for a test?  This would be a great way to validate the use of your AD chip.

  Richard
Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Preamp Comp: Naiant littlebox ($179) vs. Grace Lunatec V3 ($1525)
« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2009, 11:51:54 AM »
Found this late.  Thanks for the comp, the Naiant sounds great. 

Sounds like channels are swapped left to right on one source.  Listening carefully, the crowd chatter at the beginnings of the samples swaps sides.
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Offline Todd R

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Re: Preamp Comp: Naiant littlebox ($179) vs. Grace Lunatec V3 ($1525)
« Reply #29 on: October 04, 2009, 09:46:33 PM »
Found this late.  Thanks for the comp, the Naiant sounds great. 

Sounds like channels are swapped left to right on one source.  Listening carefully, the crowd chatter at the beginnings of the samples swaps sides.

Oops, I forgot to post back about this.  Oops also -- yes, unfortunately the littlebox sources have the channels swapped.  I had just gotten the preamp, which has its XLR inputs, and just assumed the XLR on the left was for the left channel, when in fact it is for the right channel, and the right XLR is for the left channel.
Mics: Microtech Gefell m20/m21 (nbob/pfa actives), Line Audio CM3, Church CA-11 cards
Preamp:  none <sniff>
Recorders:  Sound Devices MixPre-6, Sony PCM-M10, Zoom H4nPro

Offline Todd R

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Re: Preamp Comp: Naiant littlebox ($179) vs. Grace Lunatec V3 ($1525)
« Reply #30 on: October 04, 2009, 09:47:27 PM »
If anyone is interested, I just put up another littlebox comp, this time the littlebox vs the EAA PSP-2 transformer preamp.

http://www.taperssection.com/index.php/topic,127721.0.html
Mics: Microtech Gefell m20/m21 (nbob/pfa actives), Line Audio CM3, Church CA-11 cards
Preamp:  none <sniff>
Recorders:  Sound Devices MixPre-6, Sony PCM-M10, Zoom H4nPro

Offline willndmb

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Re: Preamp Comp: Naiant littlebox ($179) vs. Grace Lunatec V3 ($1525)
« Reply #31 on: November 29, 2009, 07:21:44 PM »
Found this late.  Thanks for the comp, the Naiant sounds great. 

Sounds like channels are swapped left to right on one source.  Listening carefully, the crowd chatter at the beginnings of the samples swaps sides.

Oops, I forgot to post back about this.  Oops also -- yes, unfortunately the littlebox sources have the channels swapped.  I had just gotten the preamp, which has its XLR inputs, and just assumed the XLR on the left was for the left channel, when in fact it is for the right channel, and the right XLR is for the left channel.
this is good to know for when i get mine

so if i am looking at the front of the box the left channel is on the left (coming out the back) and the right is on the right???
but what you did (if i understand) is looked at the back as you plugged the cables in and the one on the left you assumed was left but it was really the right??

thanks
Mics - AKG ck61/ck63 (c480b & Naiant actives), SP-BMC-2
XLR Cables - Silver Path w/Darktrain stubbies
Interconnect Cables - Dogstar (XLR), Darktrain (RCA > 1/8) (1/8 > 1/8), and Kind Kables (1/8f > 1/4)
Preamps - Naiant Littlebox & Tinybox
Recorders - PCM-M10 & DR-60D

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Re: Preamp Comp: Naiant littlebox ($179) vs. Grace Lunatec V3 ($1525)
« Reply #32 on: November 29, 2009, 07:36:08 PM »
Found this late.  Thanks for the comp, the Naiant sounds great. 

Sounds like channels are swapped left to right on one source.  Listening carefully, the crowd chatter at the beginnings of the samples swaps sides.

Oops, I forgot to post back about this.  Oops also -- yes, unfortunately the littlebox sources have the channels swapped.  I had just gotten the preamp, which has its XLR inputs, and just assumed the XLR on the left was for the left channel, when in fact it is for the right channel, and the right XLR is for the left channel.
this is good to know for when i get mine

so if i am looking at the front of the box the left channel is on the left (coming out the back) and the right is on the right???
but what you did (if i understand) is looked at the back as you plugged the cables in and the one on the left you assumed was left but it was really the right??

thanks
The XLRs on mine are clearly labeled - it's engraved in the box which is left and right. I wonder if Jon added this on later revisions?
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Offline Todd R

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Re: Preamp Comp: Naiant littlebox ($179) vs. Grace Lunatec V3 ($1525)
« Reply #33 on: November 29, 2009, 07:51:10 PM »
Yes, from what I understand Jon added the labels on the later editions.

And yes, looking at mine from the front, the XLR on the back on the left is the left channel, but looking from the back, the XLR on the left is the right channel.
Mics: Microtech Gefell m20/m21 (nbob/pfa actives), Line Audio CM3, Church CA-11 cards
Preamp:  none <sniff>
Recorders:  Sound Devices MixPre-6, Sony PCM-M10, Zoom H4nPro

Offline willndmb

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Re: Preamp Comp: Naiant littlebox ($179) vs. Grace Lunatec V3 ($1525)
« Reply #34 on: November 29, 2009, 08:46:14 PM »
thanks guys

almost there on cash for my order
was planning on going "standard" but after reading this thread and loving the akg > v3 sound maybe i'll look into the version like todd
Mics - AKG ck61/ck63 (c480b & Naiant actives), SP-BMC-2
XLR Cables - Silver Path w/Darktrain stubbies
Interconnect Cables - Dogstar (XLR), Darktrain (RCA > 1/8) (1/8 > 1/8), and Kind Kables (1/8f > 1/4)
Preamps - Naiant Littlebox & Tinybox
Recorders - PCM-M10 & DR-60D

Offline brewcrew87

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Re: Preamp Comp: Naiant littlebox ($179) vs. Grace Lunatec V3 ($1525)
« Reply #35 on: July 07, 2011, 12:50:46 PM »
it makes me wonder if it is worth 8x as much for a v3

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Re: Preamp Comp: Naiant littlebox ($179) vs. Grace Lunatec V3 ($1525)
« Reply #36 on: July 07, 2011, 01:02:03 PM »
New V3 can be had for $850 on fleabay right now.  And yes Jon's stuff can hold it's own against established preamps.  But there are things on the V3 that the LB does not have which could be very important to some people.  IE: spdif out for one.  But if you are after a great sounding Pre without any A/D and CUSTOMIZED to you exact needs then Jon is the man!  Once he releases the digital version I think that it will be a no brainer to grab whatever he comes up with.

Offline Todd R

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Re: Preamp Comp: Naiant littlebox ($179) vs. Grace Lunatec V3 ($1525)
« Reply #37 on: July 07, 2011, 03:37:50 PM »
Yep, that's exactly it.  I think even sound-wise the V3 is nicer than the LB in many ways, though those differences are small and not easily discerned without serious listening and a good playback system.  The V3 also had the A/D, good meters, and other features and is certainly a nice preamp.

At this point, I've gotten another V3 and use that as well as using my littlebox, esp if I get to doing 4 channels.  Still, the littlebox is just a great piece of gear and well worth the money.  Between the size, cost, sound, and battery life, I definitely want it in my gear closet. I'm liking it even more since I've got output transformers added into it.
Mics: Microtech Gefell m20/m21 (nbob/pfa actives), Line Audio CM3, Church CA-11 cards
Preamp:  none <sniff>
Recorders:  Sound Devices MixPre-6, Sony PCM-M10, Zoom H4nPro

Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: Preamp Comp: Naiant littlebox ($179) vs. Grace Lunatec V3 ($1525)
« Reply #38 on: July 07, 2011, 04:11:28 PM »
I think even sound-wise the V3 is nicer than the LB in many ways, though those differences are small and not easily discerned without serious listening and a good playback system.

Thanks for the reference point..  I don't have my littlebox *yet*... But I don't plan on dumping the v3.  Oh how I wish I could get down to a single $200 preamp!

For some folks, littlebox will be all they ever need.   As Jon explains, his design process is different, and emphasizes different priorities, and targets particular mics.  The v3 does some things - soundwise - better than any other portable preamp that I've heard.
 
And really, we haven't heard many v3 vs. lbox comps, especially on purely acoustic material with complex soundstage, etc.

Earlier in the thread, Richard mentioned the ina217.  As Jon clarified, it is a chip not a preamp.  There are many preamps built around the ina217, but no way do they all sound the same.  There are lots of threads on gearslutz about this.   I happen to own a DAV BG1.  It is ina217 based and it is a really great preamp.   It definitely does most things as good as the v3 and some better.  I just wish it was more portable, and that's why it is for sale.

So it's great to have all these wonderful new options.  But if I had to build a new "A rig" from scratch, I'd still be looking for a v3.

Offline Todd R

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Re: Preamp Comp: Naiant littlebox ($179) vs. Grace Lunatec V3 ($1525)
« Reply #39 on: July 07, 2011, 05:59:08 PM »
I think a lot of the comments in this thread are on target.  I don't think the comments about soundstage or soundstage width are too useful since unfortunately the comp I put up had the L and R channels swapped on the littlebox.

But the LB does have a bit more of a low end to it than the V3 as people note.  I had been thinking that was an effect of the LB, but your comments on the low end of the V3 do have me wondering about whether it is in fact the V3 with a slightly rolled off low end, and not the LB having a somewhat accentuated low end.  Still, getting the low end where you want it is easy enough with post processing EQ, and I'm usually doing that anyway since live PA shows typically have too much subwoofer and low end action.

Beyond that obvious difference between them, I think jlykos' comments a couple pages back are right on.  Though the differences that he describes to me are not blaring, but subtle.  The LB presentation is not as coherent across all frequencies, but I find this a difference only real golden-ears listening will pick up.  The LB is a bit more forward in the mids, which is actually a sonic signature that I prefer. And the mids, perhaps by being a bit more forward, can lean towards being a bit more strident, esp when recording PA's (in particular line arrays) that I find can be strident themselves.

I got my LB fitted with output transformers and as Jon suggested, these help the sound, and tame the tendency towards stridency. They also can get to some low end transformer saturation that I really like.  I got mine with switchable output transformers, but find that I always want them engaged.

Finally, it is worth noting again that my LB is special as it is one of the few made with Burr-Brown instrumentation amps, as I had requested, so it is not the same as stock littleboxes being made today.  I might try to undertake another comp using my LB with the output transformers sometime when I've got an indoor show to go to (outdoors I'd prefer using the extra channels for split omnis).  But it would be good if someone else with a standard LB could do a LB-V3 comp sometime.
Mics: Microtech Gefell m20/m21 (nbob/pfa actives), Line Audio CM3, Church CA-11 cards
Preamp:  none <sniff>
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Offline brewcrew87

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Re: Preamp Comp: Naiant littlebox ($179) vs. Grace Lunatec V3 ($1525)
« Reply #40 on: July 07, 2011, 06:56:18 PM »
i think the comp showed that they are both excellent pre amps, and the differences are only noticable if you are looking for them, and sometimes not even then! i dont think i could go wrong with a littlebox to start off

Offline willndmb

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Re: Preamp Comp: Naiant littlebox ($179) vs. Grace Lunatec V3 ($1525)
« Reply #41 on: July 07, 2011, 11:05:09 PM »
my thoughts on the 2 are this
they both rock
if i had unlimited money i would on a v3 as i do think overall it sounds better but for the cost, size, battery life, options the lb is harddddd to beat and i don't see myself selling mine anytime soon
Mics - AKG ck61/ck63 (c480b & Naiant actives), SP-BMC-2
XLR Cables - Silver Path w/Darktrain stubbies
Interconnect Cables - Dogstar (XLR), Darktrain (RCA > 1/8) (1/8 > 1/8), and Kind Kables (1/8f > 1/4)
Preamps - Naiant Littlebox & Tinybox
Recorders - PCM-M10 & DR-60D

Offline weroflu

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Re: Preamp Comp: Naiant littlebox ($179) vs. Grace Lunatec V3 ($1525)
« Reply #42 on: September 11, 2012, 06:07:27 AM »
late reply but 

<However, keep in mind that littlebox will always be relatively quietest at its maximum gain setting.>

my littlebox has a headphone amp which i think is fed directly from the mic amps.

does this mean that for high gain i should always run the mic preamps at full gain ?

for low gain same thing? and then keep the headphone amp low?

does the headphone amp gain structure attenuate or will full ccw position still represent the full gain of the mic amps?


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Re: Preamp Comp: Naiant littlebox ($179) vs. Grace Lunatec V3 ($1525)
« Reply #43 on: September 12, 2012, 03:26:27 PM »
I got my LB fitted with output transformers and as Jon suggested, these help the sound, and tame the tendency towards stridency. They also can get to some low end transformer saturation that I really like.  I got mine with switchable output transformers, but find that I always want them engaged.

"Stridency" - great word!  I am planning on ordering a Tinybox but haven't yet because I can't decide if I should get output transformers or not.  Analysis paralysis.  I am planning on using the Tinybox with Busman BSC2's and worry that adding output transformers would "muddy" the sound.  I really like the sound of my V3 if that helps.  Does a Tinybox have the option of switchable output transformers? 

All advice welcome!

Not really a comp here but an interesting listen of KM-184>V3 and BSC2-K21(Ominis)>Microtrack from the same show/location.  I haven't had a chance to try the BSC2's with the V3 yet.

http://archive.org/details/lf2012-09-03.bsc2.flac16
http://archive.org/details/lf2012-09-03.km184.flac16

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Offline OOK

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Re: Preamp Comp: Naiant littlebox ($179) vs. Grace Lunatec V3 ($1525)
« Reply #44 on: September 12, 2012, 05:42:24 PM »
tinybox now has an option for pre- and post-transformer minijacks.

Awesome Feature!!!!
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Offline rodeen

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Re: Preamp Comp: Naiant littlebox ($179) vs. Grace Lunatec V3 ($1525)
« Reply #45 on: September 15, 2012, 12:05:08 PM »
Thanks Dave!  I did what any good indecisive person would do and ordered a Tinybox with output transformers and then added the option of pre and post transformer outputs.  Then I'll be able to decide which I like better and never use the other output again.

Hope to see you on the 29th!
« Last Edit: September 15, 2012, 05:34:10 PM by rodeen »
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Re: Preamp Comp: Naiant littlebox ($179) vs. Grace Lunatec V3 ($1525)
« Reply #46 on: September 17, 2012, 07:26:02 PM »
I got my LB fitted with output transformers and as Jon suggested, these help the sound, and tame the tendency towards stridency. They also can get to some low end transformer saturation that I really like.  I got mine with switchable output transformers, but find that I always want them engaged.

"Stridency" - great word!  I am planning on ordering a Tinybox but haven't yet because I can't decide if I should get output transformers or not.  Analysis paralysis.  I am planning on using the Tinybox with Busman BSC2's and worry that adding output transformers would "muddy" the sound.  I really like the sound of my V3 if that helps.  Does a Tinybox have the option of switchable output transformers? 

All advice welcome!

Not really a comp here but an interesting listen of KM-184>V3 and BSC2-K21(Ominis)>Microtrack from the same show/location.  I haven't had a chance to try the BSC2's with the V3 yet.

http://archive.org/details/lf2012-09-03.bsc2.flac16
http://archive.org/details/lf2012-09-03.km184.flac16



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