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Author Topic: AT 853 vs. 933 Mics. Which is preferred?  (Read 4064 times)

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backwhereubelong

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AT 853 vs. 933 Mics. Which is preferred?
« on: April 08, 2015, 10:52:46 AM »
I have recorded a few shows recently using BOTH the AT-853 & 933 caps and I'm really surprised by the differences.  For discussions sake, I recorded both of these using a Sony PCM-M10's "mic input" from the same location (my Son had one set, I had the other) ... both were mounted "croakie style".  I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that the 853 was the "upgrade" to the 933's.  Is that correct?

Source 1 (AT853’s)  You can see how the low end is dominant in this picture (PIC labeled 08) ...  I pulled some other shows I have (recorded by other tapers using these same mics) and the spectrum looks exactly like these – so it’s not an isolated event.

Here's a sound sample of the 853 caps ...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/iqngcji8gp7r182/AT-Sample-One.wav?dl=0

Source 2 (AT933’s) In this screen shot (PIC labeled 09) you can see the field is more even between bass & treble.  I thought these sounded a lot more to my liking than the “upgrades”.

Here's a sound sample of the 933 caps (same section of the song as the other sample for A/B purposes) ...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8d93o3ca180l0e8/AT-Sample-Two.WAV?dl=0

Very interesting.  Any thoughts?

« Last Edit: April 08, 2015, 10:56:45 AM by backwhereubelong »

Offline down2earthlandscaper

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Re: AT 853 vs. 933 Mics. Which is preferred?
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2015, 12:48:06 PM »
I can't speak to the 933's because I've never used them, but I've been using the 853's recently, and I have found that they are pretty heavy on the low end. I've used them several different ways, the best results have been using the phantom power modules (AT8533x).
I ran them without phantom power into my Sony M10 (line-in), once through the Naiant Tinybox (set to medium gain); and once through the CA9100 preamp. Both of these recordings were pretty good, but the low end was overly dominant and they seemed to be running pretty hot even though my levels were good, peaking at -12db to -10db.
The recordings I pulled through the phantom power modules, however, sounded killer (albeit still really full on the bass). The bass is rich and full, and the highs are all there with nice clarity - cymbals, high hats etc. Nice detail. A little EQ in post and I'm sure these will be phenomenal.
Nevertheless, my next step is to engage the bass rolloff switches on the AT8533x to see how that works.
I also have not tried yet just running the 853's alone, using Mic-In/PIP on the Sony M10. How were your results with straight PIP?
Mics: CA-14(cards & omnis) and CA-11(cards & omnis) ; AT853's(cards, hypers, mini shotguns); Busman BSC-1 (cards, hypers, omnis)
Nakamichi CM300's (CP-1,2,3,4) Nakamichi CM700's (cards, omnis)
Tascam PE-120's (cards, omnis) Countryman B2D
DPA 4061's DPA 4022's; DPA 4080; AKG 480 ck61 and ck63; Naiant AKG Active Cables
Preamps: CA-9100; Naiant Tinybox (12v/48v + PIP 8V); Naiant Littlebox;
DPA MPS6030; Sound Device Mix Pre-D
Decks: Mixpre 10T and 6; Roland R-07; Marantz PMD620; Sony PCM M10; Edirol R-4; Zoom H6; Marantz PMD-661; Sound Devices 722

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: AT 853 vs. 933 Mics. Which is preferred?
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2015, 05:22:36 PM »
I take what you've written in your post to indicate that you are interpreting these image as "treble energy appears above the mid-line, bass energy appears below the mid-line", however that's not correct.  You cannot read frequency information directly off this kind of waveform image.

What those images are showing is signal voltage over time.  A recorded sound will cause the waveform to swing positive then negative, over and over again, many times per second.  The distance of the line above or below the mid-line of the graph indicates signal level, which roughly corresponds to the loudness of the sound.  You can see those signal level changes over time along the line, but not which frequencies are active.  Normally the waveform will be mostly symmetrical above and below the line.  There are some sounds for which the waveform isn't completely symmetrical, but the height overall peaks should be about the same both "up going" and "down going".

The waveform image you posted of the 853 sample appears to be asymmetric in that the negative going peaks are higher in level than the positive going peaks, and the positive going peaks are also clipped, compressed or otherwise limited (indicated by how even the height of the maximium peaks are above the line).  That often happens when low-voltage microphones such as these are either overloaded or not powered with sufficient voltage.  You should consider using a battery box or a preamp to power the 853 pair instead of powering them directly using the M10's plug in power.

A comparison between the sound of these different model mics will not be valid until you correct for this.

The 853 is generally considered to have a somewhat less significant roll-off at low frequencies than the 933, so recordings made with it will probably have more heft and bottom end in them.  That additional energy may have been enough to push the 853 pair past the limits of the powering voltage it was receiving from the M10, resulting in the distorted waveform in the image.  I would expect that to be an audible distortion.  (I haven't listened to the samples) 

Depending on the recording situation and the music, the response of either of one of these models be more appropriate than the other, assuming they are properly powered and operating within their specifications.  Which you prefer might change based on those variables.  Some recordists choose which microphone to use based only on this kind of frequency response difference, using the pair which get's closest to the sound they want in their finished recording.  For music with loads of bass energy, or recording situations where there is a predominance of bass energy over that of the mid and treble frequencies, a microphone model with a more attenuated low-frequency response can be an advantage.  It 'EQ's the sound for you somewhat by being less sensitive to the lowest frequencies.  Another microphone with a less attenuated low-frequency response may produce a more 'accurate' recording that subjectively has too much bass in it.  However, that can often be fixed afterwards with EQ far more accurately than by choosing to use a microphone with a response curve that sort of compensates for it.

So your comparison should take a few things into consideration:
1st, make sure the microphones are powered correctly and working right.
2nd, minimize the variables between the two comparisons as much as possible, except for the microphones being compared (you've addressed that pretty well)
3rd, adjust the playback levels of both so you are not simply choosing the louder of the two.  If you find you have a favorite, compare again with the other one slightly louder and see if you preference changes.
4th, consider what you plan to do with the recordings..

If you never EQ or manipulate the recordings afterwards, pick the pair which sounds best without any additional manipulation.  Just realize that you may be choosing based on the particular type of music, the acoustics of the place where the test recording was made, or the particulars of the PA mix.  If you record different kinds of music, in different places, its wise to make a few different comparison recordings before making up your mind to make sure your preferred pair is still preferred in those other situations.  Actually that's a good idea to run a few comparisons even if you always record the same music in the same room, with the same sound guy.  It helps wash out the variables other than the mic models.

I record with the assumption that I will be EQing my recordings afterwards, because I can adjust for what ever I want to far more accurately than by simply relying on the native response curve of the microphone alone.  So I tend to choose the microphone which makes it easiest for me to get the final recording sounding the way I want, instead of than the microphone which sounds best in the raw recording.  Sometimes that's the same mic, sometimes not.

So when comparing, I first listen to the raw recordings after adjusting their overall levels so they are the same loudness.  That's informative.

But I also listen after EQing both to get them as close as I can to what I want the recording to sound like.   Sometimes that's far easier to do with one pair of mics than another, and sometimes I can't get there at all.  This is also highly informative and actually more important to me.

Because I'm not averse to adjusting EQ later and almost always do so, I typically prefer the mic pair which is easiest to EQ to get the sound the way I'd like it to be.  Sometimes that's the same pair which is the better sounding of the two before EQ, sometimes not.

Hope that helps.
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backwhereubelong

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Re: AT 853 vs. 933 Mics. Which is preferred?
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2015, 06:14:18 PM »
I take what you've written in your post to indicate that you are interpreting these image as "treble energy appears above the mid-line, bass energy appears below the mid-line", however that's not correct.  You cannot read frequency information directly off this kind of waveform image.

What those images are showing is signal voltage over time.  A recorded sound will cause the waveform to swing positive then negative, over and over again, many times per second.  The distance of the line above or below the mid-line of the graph indicates signal level, which roughly corresponds to the loudness of the sound.  You can see those signal level changes over time along the line, but not which frequencies are active.  Normally the waveform will be mostly symmetrical above and below the line.  There are some sounds for which the waveform isn't completely symmetrical, but the height overall peaks should be about the same both "up going" and "down going".

The waveform image you posted of the 853 sample appears to be asymmetric in that the negative going peaks are higher in level than the positive going peaks, and the positive going peaks are also clipped, compressed or otherwise limited (indicated by how even the height of the maximium peaks are above the line).  That often happens when low-voltage microphones such as these are either overloaded or not powered with sufficient voltage.  You should consider using a battery box or a preamp to power the 853 pair instead of powering them directly using the M10's plug in power.

A comparison between the sound of these different model mics will not be valid until you correct for this.

The 853 is generally considered to have a somewhat less significant roll-off at low frequencies than the 933, so recordings made with it will probably have more heft and bottom end in them.  That additional energy may have been enough to push the 853 pair past the limits of the powering voltage it was receiving from the M10, resulting in the distorted waveform in the image.  I would expect that to be an audible distortion.  (I haven't listened to the samples) 

Depending on the recording situation and the music, the response of either of one of these models be more appropriate than the other, assuming they are properly powered and operating within their specifications.  Which you prefer might change based on those variables.  Some recordists choose which microphone to use based only on this kind of frequency response difference, using the pair which get's closest to the sound they want in their finished recording.  For music with loads of bass energy, or recording situations where there is a predominance of bass energy over that of the mid and treble frequencies, a microphone model with a more attenuated low-frequency response can be an advantage.  It 'EQ's the sound for you somewhat by being less sensitive to the lowest frequencies.  Another microphone with a less attenuated low-frequency response may produce a more 'accurate' recording that subjectively has too much bass in it.  However, that can often be fixed afterwards with EQ far more accurately than by choosing to use a microphone with a response curve that sort of compensates for it.

So your comparison should take a few things into consideration:
1st, make sure the microphones are powered correctly and working right.
2nd, minimize the variables between the two comparisons as much as possible, except for the microphones being compared (you've addressed that pretty well)
3rd, adjust the playback levels of both so you are not simply choosing the louder of the two.  If you find you have a favorite, compare again with the other one slightly louder and see if you preference changes.
4th, consider what you plan to do with the recordings..

If you never EQ or manipulate the recordings afterwards, pick the pair which sounds best without any additional manipulation.  Just realize that you may be choosing based on the particular type of music, the acoustics of the place where the test recording was made, or the particulars of the PA mix.  If you record different kinds of music, in different places, its wise to make a few different comparison recordings before making up your mind to make sure your preferred pair is still preferred in those other situations.  Actually that's a good idea to run a few comparisons even if you always record the same music in the same room, with the same sound guy.  It helps wash out the variables other than the mic models.

I record with the assumption that I will be EQing my recordings afterwards, because I can adjust for what ever I want to far more accurately than by simply relying on the native response curve of the microphone alone.  So I tend to choose the microphone which makes it easiest for me to get the final recording sounding the way I want, instead of than the microphone which sounds best in the raw recording.  Sometimes that's the same mic, sometimes not.

So when comparing, I first listen to the raw recordings after adjusting their overall levels so they are the same loudness.  That's informative.

But I also listen after EQing both to get them as close as I can to what I want the recording to sound like.   Sometimes that's far easier to do with one pair of mics than another, and sometimes I can't get there at all.  This is also highly informative and actually more important to me.

Because I'm not averse to adjusting EQ later and almost always do so, I typically prefer the mic pair which is easiest to EQ to get the sound the way I'd like it to be.  Sometimes that's the same pair which is the better sounding of the two before EQ, sometimes not.

Hope that helps.

That was a GREAT read.  Thank You.  I actually understood and it makes 110% sense.  That's why the 853's "distorted" a bit ... Well done and thanks for the lesson.

Offline kinglerxst

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Re: AT 853 vs. 933 Mics. Which is preferred?
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2015, 09:12:25 PM »
>AT-853 & 933 caps


I think when you are saying AT933 caps you actually mean AT943 (or ES 933) caps. A true AT933 mic is a hybrid of an AT 943 and AT 853. The AT 943 uses a small body AND a smaller cap. The AT933 uses the smaller AT943 body but then uses the larger AT853 elements via the adapter cone. I've been using the original AT 933 for like 15 years now. The latter ES 933 version (adding to the numbering confusion) is basically a duplicate of the AT 943 in that it also uses the smaller style caps. So the AT 943 and AT 933 use the same smaller body which is why you'll see 943/933 bodies in a description, but the adapter cone and the larger 853 caps is what separates the 943 and 933.

As far as the 853 (or 933) vs. 943 I'm not exactly sure if you are powering the 853's enough by just plugging them into mic-in on an m10. Do your mics have the resistor mod done to them? That may allow you to run them with PIP from the m10. I ran my AT933's for years with the AT8532 Power Modules that were 9V each (and also allowed phantom power to be used if wanted) and could literally climb into a PA stack with no issues. With the bigger caps on the 933's I still use no roll-off so there is more bottom end than the 943's in most cases but at most rock concerts you have that bottom end and want that in there so it's easier to slightly tone it down in post than to try and add bottom end that might not be there with the 943's in comparison.

Either way, whether it's 853, 933 or 943 they all all good set-ups when powered optimally, I just prefer the larger elements using 853 or 933.

Offline kinglerxst

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Re: AT 853 vs. 933 Mics. Which is preferred?
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2015, 09:20:44 PM »
>Nevertheless, my next step is to engage the bass rolloff switches on the AT8533x to see how that works.

When I first started running the AT 933's I ran the 8532 power modules with the roll-off ON. At one show one of them accidentally got switched to flat response and that channel was like night/day vs. the roll-off ON. After that show I always ran with flat response and if it was a little heavy it just got tweaked in post. In other words if you do the roll-off during the show you can't usually get it back to like it was originally meant to be.

 

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