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Author Topic: 4-mic Phased Array Recording  (Read 20916 times)

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Offline voltronic

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4-mic Phased Array Recording
« on: April 16, 2015, 08:37:53 PM »
After picking up the DR-70D, I wanted to try out a 4-mic array for the first time.  I decided to go with a variation on Tony Faulkner's 4-mic Phased Array which uses a pair of subcards flanked by omnis, all angled outwards at +/- 45 degrees.  Tony's preferred spacings are 47cm for the subcards and 67cm for the omnis.  Until my wide mic bar from followinbob arrives I am a bit limited for wide mounting, so for this particular recording the subcards were 36cm and the omnis 46cm.  Next concert I record I will try the 47/67 spacings.  (Note that if you search for "Faulkner Array", you will come up with the "other" array he is known for, which is 2 straight-ahead figure-8s spaced 20cm.)

Below is a dropbox folder with two tracks, and three different mixes of each.  I would appreciate feedback on which mixes are preferred.  I think all of them sound pretty good but in different ways.
1. Subcards 6dB lower than omnis.
2. Omnis 6dB lower than subcards.
3. Both equal (or as close as I could get setting levels by eye on the 70D.
4. Separate tracks of each pair of mics.

This is a high school small ensembles concert (some groups are student-led), so expect flaws in the performance.  I'm simply posting for critiques on my recording, and I chose the two most contrasting pieces.
The recording at this stage hasn't been altered in any way, not even a level adjustment.  I'm working on another set that is about 10-11dB higher and run through RX to kill the HVAC drone and will post those when done.
EDIT: The mp3 files are unaltered, but now there is also a folder of FLACs which have been run through Izotope RX - declick was used to reduce applause, I raised the gain 3dB, and denoised to remove the HVAC noise.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/8t5hzhwlzhehjkt/AAAMfW5gdFpJGAP_08wZ8z2ba?dl=0

SETUP:

Line Audio CM3 (subcard): 36cm, angled +/- 45 deg out
Naiant X-Q (omni): 46cm, angled +/- 45 out

12ft up, stand in orchestra pit about 4 feet from stage lip.
Mic array about 4 feet above and 8-10 feet back from conductor position.

Mics > Tascam DR-70D (no external preamps)

Tascam DR-70D Settings:
- 24/48 BWAV
- 48V Phantom
- Limiter OFF
- HIGH gain - subcards at 10:00; omnis at 8:00.
- levels of all 4 channels set roughly equal by eye

Relevant links on this technique:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uCcFIyJJ-w&feature=youtu.be (start around 30 min in - the inner mics are a modified ORTF which he no longer uses)
http://www.recordproduction.com/tony-faulkner.htm (start about 17min - here he describes the Phased Array)
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/930912-three-mixes-boojum-jnorman-case-study.html (Tony F contributes to this thread)
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/730017-faulkner-arrays.html
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/492654-faulkner-array-insta-snake-action.html
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=152926.30

EDIT: One thing I forgot to mention earlier is that neither of the spaced stereo pairs in this array might seem to be a good choice on their own for relatively close recording if you are looking at SRA graphs, either in Tony Faulkner's preferred spacings, the modified "Boojum/Jnorman" versions, or the further modified one I used.  The subcards would seem to be spaced a bit too wide and the omnis a bit too narrow.  Clearly, there is more than meets the eye going on with the interaction of the two pairs.  From Tony's interviews and written statements, it seems that having the omnis 10cm out from each subcard is an important aspect of getting this right.  Since the widest I could set my CM3s was 36cm, that's why I went with 47cm for the omnis.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2015, 08:44:08 PM by voltronic »
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Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: 4-mic Phased Array Recording
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2015, 10:54:32 PM »
How about posting the omnis and CM3s as separate files for us to mix to our own taste?  I think the instrumental piece is an easier selection to focus on.  Of the samples posted, I thought the omni -6 was a bit more clear on the instrumental. 

About how big is the stage and how many players?  Any observations on the acoustics of the room that you think we ought to know?

Offline voltronic

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Re: 4-mic Phased Array Recording
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2015, 06:00:15 AM »
How about posting the omnis and CM3s as separate files for us to mix to our own taste?  I think the instrumental piece is an easier selection to focus on.  Of the samples posted, I thought the omni -6 was a bit more clear on the instrumental. 

About how big is the stage and how many players?  Any observations on the acoustics of the room that you think we ought to know?
I can post the separate files.  the CM3 track on its own doesn't sound that great, but the omnis on their own are pretty good.

Stage is the typical size for a high school auditorium - just big enough for a full choir and orchestra.  The hall itself is pretty dry for the most part and has some serious acoustic issues due to parallel untreated sidewalls.

Vocal example was 19 students in two parallel rows, spread 2/3 of the width and all the way downstage.  The soloist was right of center as he appears on the recording.

String example was 23 players in the traditional chamber strings arrangement of (L-R) violins-violas-cellos with the two basses behind the cellos.  They were a bit more upstage to allow room for the conductor.
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Offline voltronic

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Re: 4-mic Phased Array Recording
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2015, 06:41:18 AM »
Dropbox folder now has individual CM3 and X-Q tracks added.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: 4-mic Phased Array Recording
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2015, 09:47:43 AM »
Thanks for posting this. 

As you know I'm very interested in these types of arrays.  In real-world taper-section recording terms, exact spacing may not matter as long as the resulting recording sounds good, but in terms of what Faulkner is doing, the spacing isn't arbitrary.  I think he's arriving at the spacings he's using not by calculation but empirically, through careful monitoring while setting up.   We don't really have that luxury.  But that he calls it a Phased Array is a hint that dialing in the appropriate spacing is important due to the complex phase interaction between the four points along the line (the four mics on the bar).

Your observation about the three general mix level relationships, and how each can be appropriate in different ways, parallels my experience using a three mics in a row (spaced omni pair with a third mic in the center, either a third omnis or a directional), and five mics in a row (wide spaced omnis, plus a 3-channel OCT/OCT-2 setup in the center), mixed to stereo.

Looking forward to listening to this but may not have a chance to until I get back from a trip in about a week and a half.
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Offline Bruce Watson

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Re: 4-mic Phased Array Recording
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2015, 02:35:53 PM »
...But that he calls it a Phased Array is a hint that dialing in the appropriate spacing is important due to the complex phase interaction between the four points along the line (the four mics on the bar).

Not exactly. It's called (I seem to recall Mr. Faulkner denied creating the name) a phased array because he lines up the mic capsules to insure the four caps are in phase. The reason for this is the wave lengths at the higher frequencies. I'm sure this crowd gets the implications.

That said, what I've read on this indicates that he gets the exact spacings by listening, and that the 67cm / 47cm spacings are a good place to start. He doesn't encourage anyone to take those spacings as inscribed in stone.

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Re: 4-mic Phased Array Recording
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2015, 05:19:24 PM »
I find myself perplexed at the CM3 portion of the recording.  Expected more from them and the 70d.  An EQ notch clears things up a bit, but I'm not sure what has happened here. 

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Re: 4-mic Phased Array Recording
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2015, 06:21:46 PM »
...But that he calls it a Phased Array is a hint that dialing in the appropriate spacing is important due to the complex phase interaction between the four points along the line (the four mics on the bar).

Not exactly. It's called (I seem to recall Mr. Faulkner denied creating the name) a phased array because he lines up the mic capsules to insure the four caps are in phase. The reason for this is the wave lengths at the higher frequencies. I'm sure this crowd gets the implications.

Not exactly.  Its not as simple as bringing the signals into phase.  Allow me to explain what is going on phase-wise with this geometry.

The signals from the four microphones will be in-phase for any plane-wave with an origin perpendicular to the axis of the array, regardless of the microphone spacing.  In less technical terms, that means sounds arriving from directly in front (or behind, above or below) with their source a long distance away will be in phase at all frequencies regardless of the spacing between microphones. This is the 'forward-gain' aspect of this array.  And this forward-facing-gain aspect is compounded by the number of elements in the array arranged in a line perpendicular to gain axis.

However, for any sounds arriving from off center, there will be a complex phase relationship between the signals of the four microphones.  Pick any to microphones in the array, and the phase-relationship of their signals will change based on 3 variables: the angle of arrival; the spacing between those two microphones; and the frequency in question.  Change any of those variables and the phase relationship changes.  Sounds from off axis don't get the same 'directional-gain' across all frequencies.

Here are the basic implications:
>The signals will be more in-phase at the lowest frequencies, and will have increasing phase difference at higher frequencies.
>The out of phase component of the signals will be closer in-phase for sounds originating near the median plane, and will have increasing phase difference at wider angles of arrival.
>The out of phase component of the signals will be more in-phase at closer microphone spacings, and will have increasing phase difference at larger microphone spacings.

That's the case for any two microphones spaced apart from each other. 

When there are four microphones instead of just two, those complex phase relationships are multiplied by six.  That's because there are then six pair relationships between the four microphones, rather than one pair relationship between two.  So the phase relationships get incredibly complex away from the median plane.

Quote
That said, what I've read on this indicates that he gets the exact spacings by listening, and that the 67cm / 47cm spacings are a good place to start. He doesn't encourage anyone to take those spacings as inscribed in stone.
^^
This is the practical take away, and what I was primarily attempting to convey in my previous post.  He's listening while adjusting the spacing, and that's the only practical way to optimally arrange things.

It's very informative to listen while actively changing the spacing of a single pair of omnis.   I encourage everyone to try this themselves, listening to the performance with headphones while varying the spacing of the two omnis (most here won't have an assistant who can slowly vary the spacing while we are listening on a speakers in some isolated room).  I think many recordists think of microphone spacing as just affecting left-right imaging and other SRA aspects, but having done this myself a number of times, I find the tonal and 'textural' aspects are often more significant.  Any one here who tries it is likely to hear this immediately, far more clearly and obviously than the SRA changes, especially when listening while making the spacing change. Comparing short segments recorded with a few different spacings is also helpful and often the more practical way to do this, but the feedback-loop and mental association with this relationship is far less direct.

One can hear these complex phase relationship shift up and down in frequency.  There will be frequency specific reinforcement at phase angle differences near zero and multiples of 360 degrees, and attenuation near 180 degree phase angles and multiples of 180 degrees.  At frequencies where the first cancellation and reinforcement happens, the attenuation and increase is quite audible. It isn't heard so much as a level differences at higher phase angle differences where phase rotation happens at ever-increasingly narrow frequency bands, but the 'texture' and 'diffusivity' changes if you'll allow me those subjective descriptors.

This is likely to explain what you are hearing and EQ adjusting for in the CM3 portion, 2manyocks.  If the spacing was being actively changed, you'd be likely to hear that particular aspect you are compensating for with the EQ notch shift upwards and downwards in frequency along with the change of spacing.   When one is listening while setting up, a big part of 'tuning' the spacing is 'tuning' those phase/frequency relationships.
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Re: 4-mic Phased Array Recording
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2015, 06:36:53 PM »
I seem to recall Mr. Faulkner denied creating the name

For the reasons described above, any non-coincident microphone array can technically be considered a "phased array".  Adding additional non-coincident microphones makes an array more significantly phased.  If Orwell was a recording engineer he may have phrased it this way-  "All spaced microphone arrays are phased, but some are more phased than others."

Mr. Falkner of course is more astutely aware of this than most, so it is not surprising that he would not give this particular setup the name "phased array".  It's not incorrect in a technical descriptive sense, but it is overly general.  And I suspect he's most interested in it in a practical sense than a technical sense anyway.
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline voltronic

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Re: 4-mic Phased Array Recording
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2015, 06:43:22 PM »
Thanks for that very detailed explanation.  Quick question: in the future I may find myself in the situation where my entire array is going to be closer to and higher above the ensemble.  In that case I have angled slightly down when using one stereo pair, but now I want to be careful to preserve consistent arrival time at the 4 capsules.  I would be using a posi-lok clutch to move the entire bar, but my 4 mounts aren't the same height.  Should I adjust so that the capsules are still aligned in a straight vertical plane, or more like a plane angled toward the choir below?  I'm visualizing the old PZM technique on a big plexiglass sheet flown above and angled toward performers on stage.
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Offline voltronic

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Re: 4-mic Phased Array Recording
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2015, 06:51:25 PM »
Also, would it be helpful if I posted FLACs instead?  I have read that MP3 encoding may do some summing of common information between channels, and that may affect what we are hearing. 

Regarding the CM3 track on its own, I'm not sure what EQ adjustment 2manyrocks made, but taken on its own it's the "worst" recording I've made with them.  But look at the SRA for that spacing and it's extremely narrow for how close my stand was.  I do think they really help complete the image of the Omni's though.
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Re: 4-mic Phased Array Recording
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2015, 07:08:08 PM »
I want to be careful to preserve consistent arrival time at the 4 capsules.

The arrival time is going to be all over the place for all the different positions in the ensemble.

I think you just need to try things and listen for what works.  The 'forward-gain' aspect of this assumes equal or near equal path lengths from the sound source in question to all microphones.  Falkner talks about using this for that 'forward gain' aspect to help when not very close.  But that aspect of it may not be important for you if you are using it close to the ensemble.  In that case it's probably more about the timbrel and imaging aspects of the four in combination.
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Re: 4-mic Phased Array Recording
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2015, 07:09:50 PM »
mp3 is probably fine.  Can you hear the same aspects in the mp3 compressed version?  Downloading them now.
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Offline voltronic

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Re: 4-mic Phased Array Recording
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2015, 07:14:42 PM »
mp3 is probably fine.  Can you hear the same aspects in the mp3 compressed version?  Downloading them now.
For the most part, yes but it might be useful to have the full frequency range.  I think I'll post FLACs of my lightly processed version which is a few dB higher and with the HVAC reduced.  The noise removal in RX was very transparent.
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Offline voltronic

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Re: 4-mic Phased Array Recording
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2015, 07:22:05 PM »
I want to be careful to preserve consistent arrival time at the 4 capsules.

The arrival time is going to be all over the place for all the different positions in the ensemble.

I think you just need to try things and listen for what works.  The 'forward-gain' aspect of this assumes equal or near equal path lengths from the sound source in question to all microphones.  Falkner talks about using this for that 'forward gain' aspect to help when not very close.  But that aspect of it may not be important for you if you are using it close to the ensemble.  In that case it's probably more about the timbrel and imaging aspects of the four in combination.
OK, that makes sense.  And regarding the spacings, I fully intend to adjust by listening.  As TF says they are starting points although he mentions the 67 cm omni spacing quite often.  Clearly he has found that consistently reliable for what he does, but we don't have his equipment nor are we recording at Abbey Road...
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Re: 4-mic Phased Array Recording
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2015, 08:36:47 PM »
FLACs now added to the Dropbox folder, as I said a few dB higher and with some RX noise reduction to reduce the HVAC drone.
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Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: 4-mic Phased Array Recording
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2015, 09:06:37 PM »
PM boojum to see what suggestions he may have.  Nice guy.

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Re: 4-mic Phased Array Recording
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2015, 09:36:56 PM »
As TF says they are starting points although he mentions the 67 cm omni spacing quite often.  Clearly he has found that consistently reliable for what he does, but we don't have his equipment nor are we recording at Abbey Road...

Perhaps similarly (only in the sense of being consistently reliable, in all other aspects I'd never presume to compare anything I say or do with TF! I'm just a amateur hack in that sense), the reason I often recommend ~3' or one meter as a good starting point for a pair of spaced omnis is from doing the 'spacing adjustment while listening' thing in a number of rather typical taper situations FOB outdoor in amphitheaters recording bands playing through a PA.  I find it's simply a good, safe general starting point and spacings of less than that are usually just not as good.  More is sometimes better, but riskier without another mic in the middle, in which case I double it to 6'.  And that's primarily based on how the bass sounds and how open and spacious the recording sounds overall, rather than SRA imaging aspects. 

I later found that 3-4' also worked well on stage or at the stage-lip, where the situation is different in many ways, but perhaps not so different in others (like the quality of the bass, based on that spacing-distance/frequency/phase relationship)
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

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Re: 4-mic Phased Array Recording
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2015, 10:48:23 PM »
I would keep it private particularly since we want his personal input. 

TV rabbit antennas sure make it easy to play with the spacing of little Omni's. 

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Re: 4-mic Phased Array Recording
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2015, 10:13:31 AM »
Sorry to be late arriving. I sense that someone's little experiment for pleasure is getting blown up into something much more important than what it really was/is.

For one thing, the theoretical speculation can be set aside: Tony Faulkner calls these setups "phased arrays" only because years ago, he wrote up one experiment that he'd done with a pair of side-by-side figure-8s facing forward. He knew that he needed some kind of catchy name for the article, and someone suggested to him that they looked somewhat like a simple RF antenna. While that's a doubtful comparison even on a visual level (unless you use progressively shorter microphones evenly spaced in front of a taller one, or the horizontal equivalent), that's the name that he and Studio Sound magazine eventually went with.

The thing is, with RF antennas, you know what frequency or small band of frequencies you're designing the antenna for. Thus you know the wavelength, and you dimension and space the array elements accordingly. Then the antenna is usable only at that frequency or in that narrow band; in any other range of radio frequencies it is worse than useless. But in audio, there can be no phase alignment between any two or more spaced transducers because wavelength is inversely proportional to frequency, and audio has 1000:1 range of frequencies and therefore a 1000:1 range of wavelengths. Whatever setup you have that's aligned for one group of (harmonically related) frequencies, it will always be 180 degrees out of alignment for another, equally large group of frequencies. That's why the 3:1 rule-of-thumb exists. I'm not aware of any special exemption that's been granted on the basis that he's Tony Faulkner. Any positive results that one might get with such microphone arrangements are unlikely to be reproducible in many other recording situations.

And no surprise, Mr. Faulkner doesn't generally use these methods for his professional recordings. They're just things he finds it interesting to play with and occasionally write an article about. He's become known for them, people request this kind of recipe from him and he obliges them. Good for him, but please let's not misconstrue what it's about.

--best regards
« Last Edit: April 19, 2015, 08:37:34 PM by DSatz »
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Re: 4-mic Phased Array Recording
« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2015, 01:45:09 PM »
Are we making this out to be overly important by analyzing underlying principles?  I don't think so.  I admit that I enjoy examining the underlying basis of things such as this more than most.  For me that's one of the best ways to gain a deeper understanding of how things work, and I usually find I can then apply that understanding to other areas.  With regards to recording and microphone arrays at least, I'm thankful this forum is a place to discuss the theoretical underpinnings as much as the practical day to day live music taping stuff.  If it was only day-to-day practical taper stuff I'd have lost interest long ago and wouldn't be hanging around here as much.

I don't really care so much if TF uses this regularly or not, but I am interested in how it works, what I can learn from that, and if I can apply that knowledge to what I'm doing.

IMHO, rather than looking for parallels with RF antenna theory, we can find clearer parallels with other applications in audio which are more directly applicable to understanding underlying aspects of microphone arrays such as this.  Multiple microphones on stage intended for separate sources which are all summed together is defacto and the 3:1 rule helps avoid interaction complications.  Multiple microphones arranged in a line and summed together, intended for pickup of a single source or all of them in combination, form a simplified line-array and is far less common.  There is plenty of information available on line-array speaker systems on the reinforcement and reproduction side.  The 'sensing' side of things using microphones in a line-array configuration is closely analogous.

Google the phrase: subwoofer array steering and take a look at most any of the resulting links.  The interaction of multiple  microphones arranged in a line perpendicular to the source and mixed together with each other are roughly analogous to the behavior of a "broadside array" of subwoofers.  A lot can be learned from reading some of those articles and considering the basic acoustic principles which apply to both sensor arrays and driver arrays.  The polar diagrams showing the resulting lobing and how it varies with frequency for all angles off the median plane visually illustrates much of what we are describing here in words.

The Microtech Gefell  KEM 970 and 975 line-array microphones are examples of applying the same underlying principles to sound pickup side of things.  Other more arcane and complex audio applications are 2 and 3-dimensional beamforming sensor arrays consisting of tens or hundreds of microphones used in applications such as sonar arrays.

The practical take away, applicable to the design of simpler microphone arrays used around here, is that the interactions are incredibly complex and unless very carefully designed and implemented, simpler is often better!

There are a number of discussion threads here at TS concerning the use of two pairs of microphones atop a single microphone stand out in the audience, which is not an uncommon audience taper setup.  As four channel recorders became common, a lot of members here started doing this and many since decided that it's not a predictable or worthwhile improvement over a single stereo pair.  In some of those other threads I've analyzed why that may be the case, and suggested some alternate setups which should be more predicable and potentially more useful.  In practical terms that usually boils down to using less microphones and/or more spacing between them, and considering the microphone array as something new, rather than the combination of two closely placed stereo configurations with which we are all familiar.

It's the practical applications and the quality of the resulting recording which are most important of course.  I'm just suggesting that we can arrive at good practical solutions more quickly and consistently by understanding and considering underlying principles, rather than trying things randomly, throwing together combinations of two standard stereo setups like a shot in the dark. 

When I see an opportunity to discus these things around here I jump in with both feet!  Apologies for the overly big cannon-ball splash soaking the poolside sunbathers.
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Offline DSatz

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Re: 4-mic Phased Array Recording
« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2015, 09:57:59 PM »
> There are a number of discussion threads here at TS concerning the use of two pairs of microphones atop a single microphone stand out in the audience, which is not an uncommon audience taper setup.  As four channel recorders became common, a lot of members here started doing this and many since decided that it's not a predictable or worthwhile improvement over a single stereo pair.

This, to me, is the key information. People are trying these four-microphone > two-playback-channel approaches largely because they have the equipment available. And I'll add: because it's fun to try things out, and "hey, you never know."

OK. But arrival-time issues don't go away just because we would rather not think about them. If two or more microphones are spaced apart and their outputs are summed (whether before or after recording), the same direct sounds will have arrived at the microphones at different moments in time, and will therefore have been picked up in varying phase relationships depending on the specific frequencies occurring at that moment. The result is a fairly strong frequency- and direction-of-origin-dependent cancellation of some frequencies, along with some selective reinforcement of others. In other words the frequency response of your recording will be screwed up by a considerable amount and in a spatially complicated way.

By varying the parameters (microphone orientation and spacing, relative mix levels) you might, in a given case, be able to tweak things until the result sounds interesting or even good. But then you will have gained nothing that you can reliably apply to the next recording that you make, in some other space or with a different arrangement of forces on stage. If (say) a stereo amplifier did to your signals what this type of setup does to the incoming sound, you would never regard it as more than a toy. A basic knowledge of acoustics will tell you that there can be no generally-applicable stereo recording technique with two or more microphones per playback channel, unless the microphones for each channel are damn near coincident (e.g. Straus-Paket, Polarflex).

This is not new territory; it was explored before stereo recording was even in the picture.

--best regards
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Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: 4-mic Phased Array Recording
« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2015, 10:03:39 PM »
...so what are these 4 channel recorders good for other than to put a main pair and take a soundboard feed? or main pair plus a couple of spot mics? 

Offline DSatz

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Re: 4-mic Phased Array Recording
« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2015, 10:39:08 PM »
Those are two good uses, and you can also put up two pairs of mikes in arrangements that make sense, record both pairs, and pick your favorite afterward.

Or you use three channels for double M/S, or four channels for Ambisonic B-format.

You can split the outputs of a stereo preamp and record the signals at full gain in two channels and at -6 dB in the other two, in case the peaks go higher than you expected.

Over in another thread I talked about recording M/S with one kind of "M" microphone above the figure-8 and another kind beneath it, so that I can choose whichever sounds better for each piece on the concert.

But never let the availability of further channels steer you away from using the simplest mike setup that gets the job done. Add microphones only when that is the only way to get the balance you need, and do it with your purpose clearly in mind, and an awareness of what the additional microphones will do to the overall pickup. Don't just put up extra microphones because you have extra recorder channels, then hope that your good intentions will magically exempt you from the physics of arrival-time differences.

Nearly all of the first 2,000+ live recordings that I made were single-pair. When I started using spot mikes occasionally, the results were only rarely a real improvement. There's a skill to choosing and placing spot mikes and mixing them in, which it took me quite some time to learn to a tolerable degree. And that's where I really do rely on having a four-channel recorder, since I would never in 100 years be able to get the relative levels between the overall microphones and the spot mikes right in a live concert situation, especially given that I only monitor with headphones. (BTW I also tend to use microphones that have deliberately rolled-off low-frequency response as spot mikes, e.g. speech cardioids with flat high-frequency response.)

The one good thing I have to say about the kinds of techniques discussed in this thread is that you're only recording one microphone's signal per recorder channel, so you always have an unmixed, one-mike-per-channel stereo recording in the can. Don't be afraid to use it. Most of the time, I think you'll find it more natural sounding, and less tiring to listen to, than any mix you can make using more microphones in more places, unless you have really planned and tested your proposed mix in terms of the specific sound sources that you're working with.

--best regards
« Last Edit: April 19, 2015, 10:42:19 PM by DSatz »
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Offline voltronic

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Re: 4-mic Phased Array Recording
« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2015, 11:19:54 PM »
But never let the availability of further channels steer you away from using the simplest mike setup that gets the job done. Add microphones only when that is the only way to get the balance you need, and do it with your purpose clearly in mind, and an awareness of what the additional microphones will do to the overall pickup. Don't just put up extra microphones because you have extra recorder channels, then hope that your good intentions will magically exempt you from the physics of arrival-time differences.

snip
...I would never in 100 years be able to get the relative levels between the overall microphones and the spot mikes right in a live concert situation, especially given that I only monitor with headphones.
snip
I can't speak for others, but it was the other way around for me.  I purchased a 4-channel recorder specifically to try techniques such as this because I was impressed with the sound of recordings made this way, and I already owned the right type of mics to try it.  Your technical explanation of the frequency / phase interaction problems is over my head, I will admit so I'll let the grown ups here discuss such matters ;).  But again, I wanted to try this because I enjoy the sound and I wanted at least the option of a second pair of mics to choose from in post after recording a concert.  I never expected it to be some kind of magical thing, just another option to try.

If you have not done so, I urge you to listen to the samples in the links I posted, especially post 52 (the DPA array), 56, and 72 in this thread: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/730017-faulkner-arrays-2.html  Maybe I'm hearing things, but I think they're quite convincing. 

Regarding your other comment I quoted in part, of course you wouldn't be able to balance the main pair and spots in that situation - that's why it's nice to have the channels to manipulate in post or discard if they aren't useful.  Are you saying that makes it not worth trying?
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Offline voltronic

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Re: 4-mic Phased Array Recording
« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2015, 11:21:31 PM »
Another idea is to use the extra channels to record a spaced pair of omnis, but be prepared to use a low-pass filter on those channels before mixing.  That will eliminate the frequencies where phase cancellation will cause a problem, while giving you the benefit of omni LF response.
I did read a comment on GS from someone who did exactly that with one of these setups.
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Offline DSatz

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Re: 4-mic Phased Array Recording
« Reply #26 on: April 20, 2015, 09:07:03 AM »
voltronic, the frequency/wavelength/phase interaction is a crucial perspective. I have a day job that I have to go to now, and I suspect that by the time I log in tonight, someone will have nicely filled in the basics. It's a perspective that everyone needs to consider when thinking about microphone placement, and specifically about mixing the signals from more than one microphone together under any circumstances.

Just to get the ball rolling, though: With some audio software or test equipment, you can record an audio frequency "sweep tone"--a simple tone that starts at one end of the audio frequency spectrum (say, 20 Hz) and slowly rises in pitch/frequency until it gets to the other end of things (say, 20 kHz), with a constant amplitude. This is a very useful signal. If you record it as a two-channel wave file and play it back, the tones that you hear should sound as if they're coming from a point between your loudspeakers. You could then take a copy of that two-channel signal, mix the two channels 50/50 into a mono signal, play it back again through the same two loudspeakers, and the effect would be indistinguishable (no surprise since each speaker would be playing back exactly what it had played back before).

Now if you go back to the two-channel sweep tone and take one of its channels and shift it in time by, say, 2 milliseconds in either direction, you can play that signal back and the mono effect will remain at low frequencies. But something weird will start to happen in the midrange and above. I want to keep this completely non-mathematical for now, so let me just say that at some point the clear center placement will dissipate and dissolve, then return as the tone goes higher still--and then it will dissolve again and return again, more and more rapidly as the frequency continues to rise.

Mix _that_ two-channel signal into mono (again 50/50) and instead of the weird phasiness, you'll get a centered-seeming tone with an amplitude that rides up and down quite severely. Wherever it was "phasey" sounding in the two-channel version, it will be lower in amplitude in this mixed version (even disappearing completely for a moment), and where it was well centered in the two-channel version, it will temporarily be several dB louder in the mixed version--so-called "destructive" and "constructive" forms of interference respectively. As before, the alternation between rising and falling signal strength will become more and more rapid as the frequency rises.

That (for reasons we can get into) is called a "comb filter" effect. And it is basically what you're doing to your signal any time you mix two inputs together that contain substantially the same material, where one is time-delayed relative to the other--including when the source is speech or music rather than a test tone. The sweep tone simply makes the point more obvious, since it isolates the effect on one frequency at a time. The problem with many multi-mike setups is that the differing distances from the sound sources to the various microphones cause time delays of this kind.

In professional recording situations, where dozens of microphones may be mixed down to two channels (or even just one channel for P.A. at live events), the effect gets kind of swamped by the sheer number of different inputs--and of course they aren't all picking up the same material for the most part, especially if the 3-to-1 rule is being followed. In a pragmatic sense you can record with a pair of microphones, or carefully blend in a few spot mikes, OR go all the way to the other side and use 50 microphones with or without a main pair--but where the comb filtering problem really gets you the worst is when you add the signals from just one or two additional microphones to the signals from a main pair, unless you're very careful about what those additional microphones are picking up. If they're coincident with the main pair, there are no arrival-time differences so this problem doesn't occur. If they're far from the main pair, the signals are so dissimilar that there's a random relationship between them and again, the comb filtering won't generally be obvious although technically it will exist to some small extent.

Gotta go. See y'all later.

--best regards
« Last Edit: April 20, 2015, 09:11:04 AM by DSatz »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: 4-mic Phased Array Recording
« Reply #27 on: April 20, 2015, 11:04:44 AM »
I'll only add that some complexity in the phase relationship between channels is often desirable can be good and of course.  Else we would all gravitate to only using coincident setups where both channels have identical phase at all frequencies.  The important thing is getting the right amount with the right qualities- enough good sounding phase complexity without bad sounding problems.

Its 'good' if you like how it sounds. It's 'bad' if you don't.  In the end, that's all that matters.

The technical take on all this is interesting (or boring, depending), but is not the point of making recordings.  Its useful in figuring out why something may sound bad or sound good, and in helping to figure out how to make it sound the way you'd like more consistently, in various situations.  It's a tool for understanding what's going on and figuring out how to manipulate things, rather than an end in itself, helping to illuminate which path may be most productive.

My approach to running multiple mic arrays for stereo is this- As long as each channel is being recorded individually, and the main pair is set and ready, go ahead and run the extra mics if you have them and its not too much complication.  You then have two separate recordings which you can compare at least, and redundancy if you have a problem with one.  Go ahead and play around with mixing them, it can be enlightening and might work out well.   If you like it better than either on their own, then great.  If not, you might think about why, and how some of what is being discussed in this thread may apply.   It's more about the intent of the recordist, rather than refraining from running the extra gear.  There is no problem with the extra stuff as long as you consider a single stereo pair primary and can keep it separate.   It's when your approach switches from "a single stereo pair.. plus some other mics that may be interesting in comparison or maybe mixed together" to "I'm setting this up with the intention of mixing all the microphones together" that a more considered approach becomes important in getting consistent results that are an improvement on the single pair on it's own.

If someone wants to try adding a second pair with the intention of mixing the two pair together, the fist thing I'd suggest is putting up a wide-enough spaced pair of omnis.  But place them twice as far apart as you would if they were to be used on their own, or more.  That will make it much more likely that the combination with the main pair will work well.  The problem is that's usually not practical from a single stand.   It's interesting to play with low-pass filtering the omnis like Jon mentioned, and that may be more important in getting everything behaving well together if the omnis aren't spaced far enough apart from the primary pair.  If spaced enough, I find I usually like the addition of the random phase complexity at higher frequencies as well though, and don't end up using the low-pass.  A more nuanced EQ curve is often what works better for me in that case.

BTW, I listened briefly to the mp3s and prefer the four-mic mixes to either pair alone.  They seemed to have more dimension and held my interest more.  I don't care if that's not accurate or synthetic or whatever, I just prefer how they sound.  They present the better illusion.  But I'm probably more tolerant of a bit of phasyness than others.  I also tend to like near-spaced configs like ORTF more than X/Y most of the time despite of or perhaps because of the phase interactions.

Here's a thought-
People are familiar with the term "mono-compatibility" in regards to issues in mixing two channel microphone configurations down to single-channel mono.  Similarly, a four microphone configuration mixed down to two-channel stereo raises "stereo-compatibility" issues.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2015, 08:33:31 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: 4-mic Phased Array Recording
« Reply #28 on: April 20, 2015, 11:07:31 AM »
Over in another thread I talked about recording M/S with one kind of "M" microphone above the figure-8 and another kind beneath it, so that I can choose whichever sounds better for each piece on the concert.

Great idea, quoted so it doesn't fly under the radar.
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Offline voltronic

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Re: 4-mic Phased Array Recording
« Reply #29 on: April 20, 2015, 07:36:20 PM »
DSatz, thank you for the clarification.  I understand comb filtering and also the 3-1 rule, but now I can better see where you concern is for the mic placements we're discussing here. 

I would suspect Gutbucket may also be correct that in certain circumstances these interactions may produce good-sounding results.  That may or may not be what I'm hearing in these recordings that I enjoy - I've definitely heard recordings that have phase issues before, but I don't here those characteristics in these recordings.  Admittedly, my experience is limited, but I enjoy the sounds I'm hearing.

Regarding the time delay causing said phase interference, I think it's worth noting that in the mic placements I'm describing the flanking omni mics are obviously not coincident but are still somewhat close -  in the experimental one I've posted here and some of the other spacings linked, each omni mic is 10cm from the inner subcardiod.  I know that is close to the wavelength of 3400 Hz, but I'm not sure if that means that's the frequency above which there would be phase interference between each "side" pair.
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Offline DSatz

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Re: 4-mic Phased Array Recording
« Reply #30 on: April 20, 2015, 09:51:32 PM »
No question--nearly any microphone configuration _can_ produce good-sounding results at least some of the time, according to someone. And good-sounding results aren't to be argued with. I'm just saying ... well, what I said: If you're going to mix the signals from two or more microphones into a single channel, and those microphones are picking up substantially the same material, they had best be coincident, for the reasons I explained.

Gutbucket, I fully agree with your statement that "some complexity in the phase relationship between channels is often desirable can be good and of course.  Else we would all gravitate to only using coincident setups where both channels have identical phase at all frequencies." These days, the only time I record with coincident microphones is M/S. However, my point was really about what happens within one channel when signals from two or more microphones are mixed together, if those microphones are spaced apart and are picking up substantially the same sounds.

And that's enough repetition from me for one day. And that's enough repetition from me for one day.

--best regards
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Re: 4-mic Phased Array Recording
« Reply #31 on: April 20, 2015, 10:18:00 PM »
Well, I kind of rhetorically cheated a bit there with the bit about liking ORTF more than X/Y because of it's phase interactions (talking main pair/audience recording, not close-up, spot stuff).  That's true in most cases, but when listening in stereo, not necessarily mixed to mono. 

[As an only semi-relevant aside, I also prefer spaced surround configurations rather than coincident ones such as dual M/S or ambisonics for the same reasons.   In stereo, the exception is Blumlien, and crossed super/hypers with sufficient angle between them, so M/S can satisfy that requirement.  But I haven't found a similar exception for coincident surround recording, I speculate that 1st order patterns just aren't tight enough to allow for a coincident arrangement to work for more than a minimal number of playback speakers, like 3 or maybe 4 max.  I'd love to try a coincident array of exotic mics which can exceed 1st order directivity, like 5 Schoeps SuperCMIT shotguns, or the Trinnov SRP.]



As for repetition, below is what I was typing while Jon & D were posting..  enough repetition from me for the next week!  Out of town and off line till next Tuesday.

Regarding the time delay causing said phase interference, I think it's worth noting that in the mic placements I'm describing the flanking omni mics are obviously not coincident but are still somewhat close -  in the experimental one I've posted here and some of the other spacings linked, each omni mic is 10cm from the inner subcardiod.  I know that is close to the wavelength of 3400 Hz, but I'm not sure if that means that's the frequency above which there would be phase interference between each "side" pair.

The "still somewhat close" region is where the dangers lie.  Neither fully coincident or far enough apart to avoid (theoretically) or sufficiently minimize (practically) the interaction problems.  That's the "tread carefully, and it's good, or suffer problems" zone.  At least for the midrange and above.

I'm more a spatial geometry guy than a numbers guy, but let me see if I can get this right-

Things get interesting at half that frequency. Lets say one 3400Hz wavelengh cycle = 10cm (not exactly, but for purpose of discussion).  For a sound of that frequency arriving from directly in front, perpendicular to the array, the arrival time is identical at both microphones and you get in-phase summing (which is the case for all frequencies, not just 3.4k).  You also get in-phase summing if the 3.4k source is directly off to either side, 90-degrees to your mic array, upon completion of one cycle.  In that case the sound arrives at the second microphone delayed by exactly one cycle.  But at an angle somewhere in between, and here's were my trigonometry gets rusty, the path length difference will be exactly 5cm, the resulting microphone signals will be 180-degrees out of phase, and you get a cancellation notch.  That notch is symmetrical to the pair however (the same for sound arriving from 90 degrees left or 90 degrees right) so you get one cancellation notch pointing left and a mirror image of it  pointing right.. Actually that's a simplification to flat plane, in reality it's 3-dimensional and forms the surface of a cone pointing left and and identical cone pointing right.  For the angles of arrival between those positions you get a smoothly varying gradient shifting between cancellation and reinforcement.

At 1700Hz you still get full summation from directly ahead (no time/phase delay), but from 90 degrees left/right you get 180-degree phase cancellation.  If you plot all angles of arrival for the 1.7k sound, you get a nice, neat, forward facing figure-8 response, but only at that single frequency.

Below that frequency you still get forward reinforcement directivity, but without a deep notch directly to the sides. The response broadens out until it eventually becomes omni-directional. 

At frequencies higher than 3.4kHz a 10cm path length begins to span multiple wavelengths, so you get more than one notch and multiple lobes, until you end up with a fan-shaped array of lobes and notches by the time you get up to 15kHz and beyond.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2015, 12:18:27 AM by Gutbucket »
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Offline voltronic

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Re: 4-mic Phased Array Recording
« Reply #32 on: April 20, 2015, 10:49:07 PM »
^ This is all very helpful.  I appreciate the thoughtful conversation.

I am trying a low-pass filter on this recording right now, and I'm listening while varying it between 400Hz and 100Hz, which is the rolloff point of the CM3.  For this particular recording, using the lowpass on the omnis at any frequency setting, even much higher up, kills all sense of space and presence.  It is actually not that different than just muting the omni track entirely (except for the bass region obviously).  This leads me to two conclusions:

1. The treble range of the omnis is what is most beneficial to this particular recording, and if there are significant phase interactions with the subcards in the treble range, they are doing for more good than harm.

2. It would seem that in order for a recording made this way to sound good with the omnis low-passed, my center pair of mics would have to be set with the spacing a bit closer (NOS, DIN, etc.) to create a wider SRA.  In other words, the pair of directional mics would have to "stand on their own" so to speak in terms of a proper stereo image, and I knew going into this that would not be the case and that the omnis would be needed to fill things out.  As I said in my original post, the SRA of that subcard pair at this spacing is very narrow, but I was just experimenting with what others have tried and was fully prepared for it to crash and burn.

If the subcards were set with a wider SRA as I said above, would that potentially create more undesirable interactions with the omnis?  My thinking is that the resulting "combined pickup pattern" (for lack of a better term) of the subcard pair would then be sharing more perceived directional sound arrival characteristics with the omnis.  I realize that you're not changing anything about the pickup pattern of the mics individually, so this may be a flawed line of thinking.

Again, thanks to all for your patience with me here - trying to take all this in.
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Re: 4-mic Phased Array Recording
« Reply #33 on: April 21, 2015, 06:12:31 AM »
Well that's where the "identical microphone" bit falls apart--the X-Q is based on a flat-response omni cap, but in its case it will have a bit of a HF lift.  I don't know the FR of the CM3, but the X-Q is likely hotter above 15 or even 10kHz.
That seems to be the case.  http://www.lineaudio.se/CM3.html
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Re: 4-mic Phased Array Recording
« Reply #34 on: April 25, 2015, 01:38:39 AM »
Allow me to explain how I arrived at the JNorman/Boojum array about the same time as Jim Norman.  I had been recording a rock band for fun with ORTF CMC64's.  It worked alright but did not have the bottom end that omni's offer.  For this reason classical sessions will have ORTF flanked by omni's, usually at a spot about halfway between the edge of the sound field and the center of the stage.  John Eargle was a proponent of this technique.  However, the Williams research indicated that a spacing of ~37cm for omni's will yield an SRA of ~80° and a cm less ~90°.  So, by combining Williams charts with Eargle's classical "center plus flankers" array I could put the whole shebang on one mic stand and get it placed quickly for those "quick and dirty" situations that tapers are faced with so often.

Playing off the omni's against the ORTF, or MS, could adjust the room tone and recorded sound to suit me in post.  Also, the omni's, DPA4061's, not only had a good bottom end but were also clean all the way up to the top end.  They played well with the Schoeps mics.  I am not an engineer but the array seems to work OK for me and for others.  And it is easily placed.

DSatz suggests two mics with a figure-8 for MS.  I have done this using a CMC64, CMC68, DPA4061 array.  I place the 4061 under the CMC68 and the CMC64 above.  It works well and, again, the card against the omni allows work in post.  It also allows the bottom register to be heard which is not always the case with the CMC64.  I low pass filter can be applied to the 4060/1.

However, for novel ideas and experimentation I cannot hold a candle to Gutbucket who has been doing some great stuff as long as I have known him.  Rabbit ears and DPA mini omni's are a fertile ground for him.  The Merlin of micro mics.

Cheers

PS -  TonyF has been credited with two "Faulkner Arrays" that I know of:  the two figure-8's forward facing and parallel and also the 67cm omni's angled out with and ORTF/NOS in the center.   
« Last Edit: April 25, 2015, 01:42:36 AM by boojum »
Nov schmoz kapop.

Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: 4-mic Phased Array Recording
« Reply #35 on: April 25, 2015, 09:58:07 PM »
As far as I know, the most recent TF commentary on this is in the first thread Voltronic linked:  https://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/930912-three-mixes-boojum-jnorman-case-study.html

Among other things, TF commented " my 4-way system was arrived at to get reach and detail from a distance."  apparently without having to resort to set up several omnis closer in on separate mic stands. 

And we have Gutbucket using, what, 6 specific microphones in a pattern I've never read about elsewhere. 

I feel like I walked into a Phd class after graduating from kindergarden. 

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Re: 4-mic Phased Array Recording
« Reply #36 on: April 30, 2015, 09:58:15 PM »
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/997189-tony-faulkner-lso-abbey-rd-shostakovich.html

Abbey Road recording session where TF used his 4-mic setup as the primary array for the orchestra.  Check the video in the first post, and specific descriptions of mics used, balancing etc. in posts 14 and 17.
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Offline voltronic

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Re: 4-mic Phased Array Recording
« Reply #37 on: May 04, 2015, 09:59:34 PM »
Regarding the "reach and detail from a distance" 2manyrocks referenced, I decided to try an experiment the other night to see just how far that could be taken with this array.  Here's a post I made on GS with all the details and a link to samples:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/930912-three-mixes-boojum-jnorman-case-study-2.html#post11020078
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Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: 4-mic Phased Array Recording
« Reply #38 on: May 05, 2015, 11:26:51 PM »
That's more like it. 

How much of the improvement comes from using wider spacing on a different mic bar do you think?

Did the drums seem that prominent live on Street Marches? 

Offline voltronic

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Re: 4-mic Phased Array Recording
« Reply #39 on: May 06, 2015, 06:18:21 PM »
That's more like it. 

How much of the improvement comes from using wider spacing on a different mic bar do you think?
That's hard to tell, as this was the first recording I made with this wider bar available, and thus the first I've made with the wider spacings on the phased array.  Like I said in the GS thread, I was looking to see   

Did the drums seem that prominent live on Street Marches?
Yes, that auditorium is quite boomy and that's pretty much what it sounded like in person.  Even though it's only one bass and one snare, they were in the orchestra pit which is not carpeted, and they also had the hard wood paneling in front of the stage right behind them.  I suspect those two guys were also professionals, whereas several of the brass players clearly are not.  The hall was also pretty much empty for this rehearsal.
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Re: 4-mic Phased Array Recording
« Reply #40 on: May 22, 2015, 10:59:36 PM »
Here's a sample from a couple nights ago of the choir concert I record every year, this time with the 4-mic phased array at the 47/67 spacings.  At the choir director's request, I recorded from center-front balcony, which isn't any farther back in the hall from where I normally have been in the past, and it has the obvious height advantage.  He also asked that I record a second set of tracks using his Schoeps MK4/MK8 mid-side setup, though I told him from that distance it's not going to be the best choice.  I included that sample here for your comparison.

This is a very large (about 250 voices) high school choir with a digital piano / amp.  The concert grand wasn't used for this concert due to logistical issues with an orchestra setup.

Lineage:
CM3 / X-Q > DR-70D

MK4/MK8 > CMC 5U > FP24 > M10

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/mx2683jqrwdqrob/AABVf4LOYFnKOmCgkQF-aIMZa?dl=0
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Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: 4-mic Phased Array Recording
« Reply #41 on: May 24, 2015, 11:13:24 PM »
Seems like there was more low end in your array then in the m/s.   Even though the m/s had that Schoeps goodness to it, I would have preferred closer micing. 

Are you going to keep your FP24 now that you have the 70d? 

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Re: 4-mic Phased Array Recording
« Reply #42 on: May 24, 2015, 11:46:35 PM »
Seems like there was more low end in your array then in the m/s.   Even though the m/s had that Schoeps goodness to it, I would have preferred closer micing. 

Are you going to keep your FP24 now that you have the 70d?
Well the array includes omnis, so no proximity effect means they are getting the bass at distance as opposed to the CM3s.  I actually didn't want to use the M/S setup at all; it was the conductor who wanted me to run it even after I told him it's going to be too far back.  I just sent him tracks of both setups but told him that the Phased Array is the one that actually sounds like it did live, as opposed to the M/S which from that distance is predominantly mono sounding.  That Schoeps M/S rig does sound fantastic up close though.

I was thinking about selling the FP24 to help offset the purchase of new mics, but it's such a good pre that I might hold on to it.  It is quite handy to have a second complete rig, especially in situations like this one where my 4 channels of the 70D are occupied and I need to record another 2.  The conductor has a Zoom H6 which I've used to record his concerts in the past, but for this one I decided to use my FP24 > M10 because it was available and probably much better than the H6 pres.
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Re: 4-mic Phased Array Recording
« Reply #43 on: May 25, 2015, 10:29:32 AM »
With the FP24, at least you know the meters are going to be accurate. 

 

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