Topic: I'm allergic to crowd chatters: should I invest in a good pair of omnis anyway ?

[fandelive]

Hi everyone,

I have run cards with success within the last 6 years. I clip my mics on a baseball cap, close to my temples, and stand at the best reachable spot according to my ears.

I'm thinking now about investing in a good pair of omnis. The reason is I find my cards recordings to sound tiny, unless I can play them thru a pair of headset.
Also, I'd like to be able to move my head without getting a bad phasing effect (but is that even possible to avoid with binaural technique ?).

I'm considering omnis to get deeper bass and a much fuller sound, but I'm afraid picking too much room echoes and way more crowd chatters...
I guess there are some ways to limit or to avoid that ? Standing as close as possible to the source ? I'm afraid the mix will be unbalanced :/

Thanks !
 

[nulldogmas]

What kind of music do you typically record, and what kind of venues?

[fandelive]

What kind of music do you typically record, and what kind of venues?

Rock acts, mainly in clubs. I'll keep the cards for arenas anyway.

[stevetoney]

I don't stealth much anymore, but I'd get omni's for the reasons you mentioned.  You can't avoid crowd chatter when you're stealth taping and omni's will indeed help with the phasing effect you hear.  The fact that you're at a rock concert helps because the music volume helps mask background noise.  The deep bass you're after depends on the mic model/brand more than the capsule type.

Yes, you hit the nail on the head about standing too close to the stage.  Standing really close to the stage can be really rewarding when the conditions are right.  You can get a pure sound with great instrument separation.  That said, recording stage lip usually frustrates me.  First, if there are any vocals in the music, you won't hear them well on your recording because the vocals are routed through the PA...there are usually no vocal speakers on stage facing out towards the audience.  So the insruments are nice and direct and the vocals are distant and full of room reverb.  Second, if you're not centered well between all of the instruments on stage, one instrument can dominate your recording.  For example, if drums aren't in the back, but to one side of the stage, it's going to be an awful sound...at least if you listen through headphones.  Have you ever heard a recording that you can listen to for long if the drums are all coming out of one channel?  It might sound the same as it did at the show, but that doesn't make for a good recording IMHO.

[ilduclo]

Omnis will work great with either quiet crowds & quiet music, or loud music & any kind of crowd

[yltfan]

I too am allergic to crowd noise, but am pretty happy with the sound I get from cards (at853). What I wander is will omnis add more crowd noise or diffuse it? Are there any situations where omnis would help with crowd noise? I suspect not.

[bombdiggity]

You can still readily get phasing with omnis if you move them... 

Clip the ones you have to a collar and you have considerably more freedom of movement.  You'll not hear any difference relative to head mount in terms of the sound. 

[acidjack]

I too am allergic to crowd noise, but am pretty happy with the sound I get from cards (at853). What I wander is will omnis add more crowd noise or diffuse it? Are there any situations where omnis would help with crowd noise? I suspect not.

tonedeaf is right that in terms of small stealth mics, omnis will provide a fuller sound, and used up close, probably the "best" sound. That said, the AT853 miniature cardiods, as well as the Church Audio CA-14, are I think plenty full-range to do the job. You can always do things in post to make a recording less tinny, too.

If you're talking about open taping, then no, I would not buy omnis unless you only record very close to the source. The difference in fullness of bass response goes pretty much away when you're dealing with mid- to high-end mics that aren't miniature.

[nulldogmas]

If I could find cards where I was entirely happy with the sound, I'd use them 100% of the time. As it is, I stick with my CA-14 cards 90% of the time, but occasionally I still bring out my CSBs in rooms where the cards have felt tinny.

So, you know, it depends. I've occasionally gotten best-of-both-worlds results by using both the cards and the omnis from the same location and mixing to taste later. More often I end up just chucking one entire pair of channels (or mixing them way down), but if nothing else it taught me some about which mics work best in which rooms.

[nulldogmas]

That said, the AT853 miniature cardiods, as well as the Church Audio CA-14, are I think plenty full-range to do the job. You can always do things in post to make a recording less tinny, too.

The CA-14 cards are really good, and kicking down the 1-10KHz range by a couple of dB can help with tinniness. But I've still never been quite as happy with them as with the CSBs under ideal conditions (close to stage in narrow, quiet room).

[Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)]

This is in no way a scientific comparison, but I run 2 sets of omni's. They are completely different IMO.

The Nevaton MCE400's seems to be more directional, but still they are omni's.  I think they sound fantastic.

The Countryman B3's are smaller, and are way better for extra stealthy operation, but I think they pick up more crowd noise near me. That being said, they sound great if you are in the sweet spot and you don't have chatty people next to you.

I run the Nevaton's more often because most of the shows I stealth tend to have chatty people, and are sold out so I don't have the option to move easily.

IMO, the Nevaton's are more of a "directional" omni. Sort of the best of both worlds, or a good middle ground between that better omni sound, but with more nearby sound rejection.

The Nevaton's are pretty hard to find (and I have no plans on selling mine anytime soon), but maybe you could find something similar. Sorry I don't know what that would be. Maybe someone else can add something.

[aaronji]

I don't stealth much anymore, but I'd get omni's for the reasons you mentioned.  You can't avoid crowd chatter when you're stealth taping and omni's will indeed help with the phasing effect you hear.  The fact that you're at a rock concert helps because the music volume helps mask background noise. The deep bass you're after depends on the mic model/brand more than the capsule type.

That's not completely accurate, I think.  Cardioids, from any real taping distance, roll off substantially in the low end (see attached graph for the DPA 4011 as an example).  Omnis definitely pull the low-end!

[earmonger]

I am a big fan of omnis, clipped to shirt collar. I like the bass and I like the 360-degree soundfield. Yes, chatters are a problem and distance is the best solution.   But in a club omnis, with your back to the front of the sound booth, is a great location--no one talking behind you.

You can try social engineering too.   If people talk through the opening act you could point to the mics and tell the neighbors "I'm trying to record this show because my son/boyfriend/uncle/niece/AA buddy/parole officer  is in the band. Could you try not to talk through the set? It's really important."   

[bryonsos]

If you're only going to own 1 set of omnis, B3s are hard to beat. I ran mine open at Furthur a few years ago for shits and giggles, and tons of folks downloaded and complimented it.

The Countryman B3's are smaller, and are way better for extra stealthy operation, but I think they pick up more crowd noise near me. That being said, they sound great if you are in the sweet spot and you don't have chatty people next to you.

[blg]

Just my opinion, but i will never stealth with omni's again, ever.  I've run side by side many times with a friend who runs dpa 4061's and the difference in the amount of crowd we pick up is pretty substantial.  I almost never worry about anyone behind me now, nor people on the left and right.