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Author Topic: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)  (Read 187465 times)

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Offline pool

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #60 on: January 16, 2010, 01:18:37 PM »
I think one of the main issue ith the m10 is the handling noise to tunrn the level knob. nothing beats the mt for this. theyre on the front and noisless to turn up/down. The m10 doesnt create noise in turning up/down internally but the handling noise is picked up. its 1" away from teh mic. i can't see how to go about this. if the remote had level adj this would be a great recorder.

Offline fmaderjr

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #61 on: January 16, 2010, 01:37:39 PM »
I think one of the main issue ith the m10 is the handling noise to tunrn the level knob.

I couldn't disagree more strongly. This is a non issue for most of us who will use external mics for concert recordings. Even those who will use it at times to make ambient recordings with the internals probably will have no trouble setting the levels in advance.
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Offline pool

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #62 on: January 16, 2010, 02:33:07 PM »
I think one of the main issue ith the m10 is the handling noise to tunrn the level knob.

I couldn't disagree more strongly. This is a non issue for most of us who will use external mics for concert recordings. Even those who will use it at times to make ambient recordings with the internals probably will have no trouble setting the levels in advance.

Yes with external preamps/mics it wont make a difference.
Yes for ambient recordings it wont make a difference.

I was obviously refering to using it for concert recordings with internal mics where you are stuck with a begining, and end, and a concert in between.

Offline earmonger

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #63 on: January 16, 2010, 05:11:41 PM »
I've been doing more live recording and remain quite impressed. At low sensitivity with the limiter on, the built-in mics can handle a full-blast rehearsal.

After putting up for many years with minidisc, this thing is so close to ideal that I have an exceedingly short wishlist.

1) Make the Hold button also lock Recording Level (though the knob is stiff enough and guarded enough so this isn't particularly a problem), Mic Sensitivity and Manual/Auto switches, for in-the-pocket use.

2) Make a remote with a level indicator (backlit) and controls, like the RM-MC40ELK minidisc remote (which, however, lacked a Record button--gotta keep that).

3) Fewer steps for Track mark removal. It takes a lot of presses to get to where you're deleting track marks.  Track marking during recording is nice and smooth, though.

4) Recording level...the knob is obviously as big as it can be. But I do wish there were more subtle gradations available. Another reason to put recording level on the remote, with a scale of 1-50. 

Of course, if there is a PCM-M11 that fixes all this in the next year, I'm going to feel as silly as the people who got the Edirol R09 before the HR version...
« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 03:48:44 PM by earmonger »

blackmikito

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #64 on: January 16, 2010, 06:36:59 PM »
Of course, if there is a PCM-M11 that fixes all this in the next year, I'm going to feel as silly as the people who got the Edirol R09 before the HR version...

The reality is that there will be something within even the next 3-6 months which will probably give everything currently on the market a run for the money.

The NAMM show is going on as we speak, and already there have been no fewer than 6 new portable solidstate recorders debuted. The market for these recorders doesn't just depend on tapers, but on musicians, journalists, tv/video engineers, and those in the speech profession as well.  So, now that the technology has officially arrived, everybody is trying to cash in.

With that in mind, a year from now, everything currently on the market will likely be outshined by at least one of the new models. There will most definitely be something out there with lower input noise levels, digi-in, better internal mics, etc. And the things will probably be cheaper to boot.

Which is why deciding between the M10 and the R-09HR is ultimately a temporary game.  If you're the type who wants "the best thing out there", it's not likely that you'll be holding onto any of these things for longer than 1-2 years.

Offline yousef

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #65 on: January 16, 2010, 07:27:04 PM »
Of course, if there is a PCM-M11 that fixes all this in the next year, I'm going to feel as silly as the people who got the Edirol R09 before the HR version...

I dunno: having read about the R-09HR's inability to cope with rec level changes, I'm feeling not very silly at all...

I think the M10 is going to be my next purchase, the only thing that's making me hesitate is the lack of a digi-in.

That said, M10 plus an MT2 would still cost less than a D50 and would have me covered...
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Offline fmaderjr

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #66 on: January 16, 2010, 09:14:28 PM »
deciding between the M10 and the R-09HR is ultimately a temporary game.  If you're the type who wants "the best thing out there", it's not likely that you'll be holding onto any of these things for longer than 1-2 years.

The way technology progresses, this will always be the case. But both will be excellent recorders for a few more years at least. I still have a MT 24/96 around and can make absolutely flawless recordings with it and an ST-9100. I just prefer using an M10 or R-09HR due to the ease of use and not having to deal with a battery pack. Even if you only get a year or 2's use out of an M10 or R-09HR, they don't cost a whole lot and if you want to upgrade you can probably sell them for 75% of what you paid (if you bought at a good price).
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Offline tekdroid

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #67 on: January 16, 2010, 10:05:54 PM »
Quote from: blackmikito
The reality is that there will be something within even the next 3-6 months which will probably give everything currently on the market a run for the money.

Things don't move that fast in audio, I reckon.

Sony PCM-D50 has been selling for 2+ years. I didn't see anything outshining it at the price when I decided to purchase it approximately 1.5 years after it was released.

There are always new models out but rarely do you get something a leap over what came before in the same price range, especially at sub-USD$300 like this.

Portable recording (and playback) done well is much harder to get right. Just like making a good instrument versus an average one. After using the PCM-M10, like earmonger mentioned, my wish list is pretty small.

It's the competition that must play catch-up at this price point from what I can tell. Improvement in multiple areas to make it worth buying over something else.

I'd be very surprised the competition does most things better in 3-6 months let alone 2 years at the price in a unit of this size or less. To me it's the clear leader in this price range. Yes, you still might get one or two great things in the competition, but over-all, it's the leader. My wants are a good balance of both Recording and Playback (Walkman-style), so again this wins (even though it doesn't go to the level of MiniDisc for Playback modes and other things just yet).

A guilty pleasure of mine is making far more use of Key Control than any sane person should, though. I'm hooked to the point where I don't want to buy anything without it (and this is quite apart from Sony's audio and design expertise making this a very fine unit).

Offline guysonic

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #68 on: January 17, 2010, 06:23:34 AM »
the r-09 created pops during the recoring if levels were changed. its even stated in the manual.
Some of these all-in-one-codec-IC-recorders have DC offsets audible in recordings (also known as 'zipper noise' noticed during REC level adjustments.  It seems most manufacturers (maybe not Sony) doing component and production quality checks are not testing or rejecting DC shifts due to deck digital (stepped) gain changes; an all DC coupled process operating inside these codec ICs. 

In the past, before extensive use of the all-inside-one codec recorder implementation, things were done using separated IC components maybe using capacitors between some processing circuits. So any DC errors were noticed, and if there at all, less easily passed/or designed to be more controlled to not cause these noise issues.

So you buy a super small/low costing flash recorder model finding offsets making noise with level adjustments.  Some of the same model are noiseless.  And some models never have such issues due to using superior codec ICs or simply rejecting those IC QA tested with too much DC offset issues.
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Offline pool

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #69 on: January 17, 2010, 07:55:35 AM »
To be honest, if i had to lower levels urgently, I'd rather have a clean stepdown rather than gaps or pops in the recording. The M10 does not seem to produce any artifact noises in level adjustments.

Still, the disadvantage remains the manual handling noise one produces manually if one needs to adjust the knob. To be honest, I anticipate with glee the moment when the knob loosens up a bit so that handling noises are rediced.

Today I recorded singing here and there in different chapels and results are pretty satisfactory to excellent . Low sens at 5 level picks up nicley almost at -12db leaving enough headroom for sudden high notes. Noise is extremly low. Note Normalizing a recording at low sens 5 level and same recorded source at High sens level 5 would result in same background noise (which is minimal). The advantage is better headroom in using low sens.

As for stereo separation- im really not a technical person, but the recordings have presence. footsteps moving across from left to right are felt very vividly. Laugh at my comparison, but its the best i can describe. I won't say that left from right is seperated like a hot knife through butter, but the ambience is realistic. The slight disadvantage i see is the response to boomy echo (see below).

People keep saying that the internal mics are quite. I guess it also means the internal preamp is quite too. If I find omnis that have equally low noise and sensitivity as the m10 internal mics for quite performances like chapel singing etc, i'll be more than pleased to add them mic-in, also because the m10 internal mics have a slightly less then excellent response to boomy effect of chapels/halls/organs etc. (This also depends on playback software/hardware.) The low cut filter is there, and it does remove the rumble, but one is always weary to use a low cut filter in recording i guess.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 07:03:47 AM by pool »

Offline fmaderjr

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #70 on: January 18, 2010, 08:19:20 AM »
I think one of the main issue ith the m10 is the handling noise to tunrn the level knob.  The m10 doesnt create noise in turning up/down internally but the handling noise is picked up.

I just decided to give mine a try and I got NO handling noise at all from turning the record wheel. Just hold the recorder tightly in one hand so you don't create handling noise with that hand and try to turn the wheel with your thumb and forefinger without touching much else with that hand. Tried it a bunch of times and never got any handling noise at all. In contrast, the R-09HR and R-09 create noise in your recording whenever you change the record level even if you are using external mics and even if you can eliminate handling noise.

Another advantage for the M10.
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Offline pool

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #71 on: January 18, 2010, 08:30:39 AM »
yes it's really a matter of .....fingering it well....(sorry i had to), however in stealth it isn't that easy. again, since using external mics, the recorder will not be in bag/pouch, having the level knob looser would help to finger it better (there i go again).

Offline tardis71

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #72 on: January 18, 2010, 09:30:38 AM »
I recorded a show this weekend at a local bar/club and had my M10 on a table about 15 feet in front of the right PA stack and it came out great!! I moved it a few times and adjusted the levels once. No handing noise that I could tell. Music was very loud, but even tho me and a date were talking a bit...you couldn't hear us unless you knew exactly were we were talking. As a grab and go recorder. This puppy is impressive for sure! Still waiting on my CA14s but even with just the internal mics it makes great sounding recordings. Transfer time is low too, 1hour 45min show only took 5min to go from m10 to the computer.
Also I think it will be a long time before the level wheel wears out or becomes loose. You just don't use it that much...you pretty much have it set at 4-5 and then only have to go up or down a bit to set levels...it's not like you're swirling it every 5mins or anything.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 09:32:10 AM by tardis71 »

Offline pool

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #73 on: January 18, 2010, 09:36:23 AM »
front of the right PA stack and it came out great!! I moved it a few times and adjusted the levels once. No handing noise that I could tell. Music was very loud, but even tho me and a date were talking a bit...you couldn't hear us

well thats not exactly a chapel situation i was describing :-) where handling is bound to be heard. If i had to find the ideal level setting knob design, I would choose the MT- on the front panel and digitally noisless. It as comfortable as comfortable can be.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 09:47:48 AM by pool »

Offline CatScan

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)
« Reply #74 on: January 18, 2010, 09:48:02 AM »
I've had my eyes on the PCM-10, just not gotten around to order it yet (I haven't found it for sale where I am, so I have to go through the hassle of ordering from overseas). Then someone suggested I go for a Zoom H4N instead.

There's been a lot of comparison here between the M10 and Edirol's R-09HR, but no mention of the Zoom. How does the PCM-M10 compare to the Zoom H4N?

 

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