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Author Topic: Team classical recording  (Read 106143 times)

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Online Gutbucket

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #330 on: January 30, 2015, 11:27:58 AM »
Don't underestimate the influence of the vertical angle of the microphone array when it is placed above the ensemble 'looking down', especially if using cardioids or near-cardioids.  The SRA width changes with vertical arrival angle for any array which uses angled directional microphones.  Also, using different microphone setups, the nature of the way in which sounds arriving from outside of the SRA are reproduced changes, in ways which are unrelated to the stereo imaging within the SRA. 

With some setups the sounds from outside the SRA are mostly reproduced as hard panned monophonic sources positioned at one speaker or the other.  With others those sounds are distributed between the speakers, or reproduced with inverse phase differences that push those sounds somewhat outside the speakers.   The irony is that the setups which reproduce that stuff arriving from outside the SRA as hard-panned monophonic sound eminating direclty from each speaker, can have something of a 'hole in the middle' even though the revererant information is not overly spacious sounding.

Not enough time to explain in more depth, but there is some relevance to this 2008 TS thread-
 
Why Blumlein sounds more spacious than other coincident or near-so arrays

Some discussion of the change with vertical arrival angle is here in that same thread. The Geoff Marin paper I linked in that post is the one which really analyzes the changes due to vertical-angle of arrival to a stereo pair, but that link appears to be dead.  That paper is titled: General Response Characteristics of Microphone Configurations.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline voltronic

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #331 on: January 30, 2015, 11:28:38 AM »
The CM3 is usually compared to the Schoeps MK22 as their specs are very similar, though I don't think anyone would claim they are equal in performance.  I can't afford Schoeps though, and I think the CM3s get at least close in performance level.

For classical recordings, I would recommend any recent recordings done by Linn Records, particularly anything with the Dunedin Consort.  Absolutely superlative performances and recordings.  Also, the BIS label still continues to be my standard for excellent recordings.  See if you can find their older recording of Schnittke's Faust Cantata to really see what your system can do.  Try eclassical.com to purchase downloads of their stuff.
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Online Gutbucket

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #332 on: January 30, 2015, 11:50:33 AM »
Classical recording methods vary widely, and one can find good examples of each as references of what can be done generally, how they sound in an overall sense and in comparison with each other.  But using a fantastic sounding recording made with lots of microphones may not be an appropriate benchmark for comparison with the two microphone stereo recordings most around here are making, and most modern classical commercial recordings are made that way, for large ensembles at least.

For some excellent recordings made using simple two-microphone only techniques, including large ensemble classical stuff, you might check out some of Kavi Alexander's recordings on the Water Lily Acoustics label.  I love the recordings of his I've heard such as his Grammy wining "A Meeting by the River" with Ry Cooder & V.M. Bhatt, and have been meaning to check out his well regarded two-microphone symphonic recordings as well. He's recording style is closer to the ways we do it than most classical recording engineers.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #333 on: January 30, 2015, 12:53:28 PM »
I suspect the sound from a choir would project differently than the sound from woodwinds.  That is, I would expect the woodwinds to be more directional?  I'm thinking clarinet horns would face at an angle towards the stage, for example vs. the more outward projection of a choir. 

So far as two mic recording is concerned, Rolo keeps knocking it out of the park on GS with his two Senns and SD702. 

I have recommendation after recommendation to use isolating headphones or earbuds to determine the final positioning of mics in classical recording.  I think you can only get so far with SRA calculations. 

that being said, I suspect one has to set up the mics and experiment with positions to nail this down until you accumulate so much experience that it becomes second nature.  Of course, I am not there by any means. 


Offline voltronic

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #334 on: January 30, 2015, 05:34:17 PM »
I didn't consider Ulfris was looking for 2-channel recording specifically, just the best available regardless of method... at any rate here's the Schnittke recording I love so much: http://www.eclassical.com/labels/bis/schnittke-faust-cantata-1.html

In any case, for "minimalist" classical I would also recommend the DTR label, a small label near my neck of the woods.  The website is very, very basic but the recordings are excellent.  If you read the info, their whole aim is to recreate the natural, live concert experience.  I met the proprietor at a session once, and he told me that for most everything he just uses one pair of Earthworks omnis into a Sound Devices recorder (I don't remember the exact model, but I'm certain it was a 7-series).  This was quite a while ago - he may have upgraded since then.

For example, here's an extremely natural piano sound, and I was pleasantly surprised to find that the pianist was my private teacher in college!
http://www.dtrmusic.com/2001cd.html

Good organ example:
http://www.dtrmusic.com/2011CD.html
I am hitting my head against the walls, but the walls are giving way.
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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #335 on: February 02, 2015, 09:49:25 AM »
Didn't mean to pigeon-hole recommendations around specific recording techniques, just pointing out a potentially relevant aspect when using them as a basis of comparison with our recordings.

Thanks for the suggestions and links.

I've long been curious to hear some of the piano recordings of James Boyk, given what I've read of his writing on the subject, but have never sought them out.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline voltronic

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #336 on: February 02, 2015, 08:02:16 PM »
Didn't mean to pigeon-hole recommendations around specific recording techniques, just pointing out a potentially relevant aspect when using them as a basis of comparison with our recordings.

Thanks for the suggestions and links.

I've long been curious to hear some of the piano recordings of James Boyk, given what I've read of his writing on the subject, but have never sought them out.

I wasn't suggesting that you were.  Your line of thinking makes total sense given what this board is about, but at the time Ulfris was asking about good recordings, my brain just spewed out the best-sounding classical albums I can think of.

Interesting that you mention James Boyk.  I sometimes show Music Animation Machine videos as teaching tools with my students, and this is a one I have used often that features an excellent Debussy performance of his:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJDlqCX8Qrk
I am hitting my head against the walls, but the walls are giving way.
- Gustav Mahler

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Offline Ultfris101

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #337 on: February 02, 2015, 08:13:13 PM »
thanks guys. I had in mind great sounding recordings of great performances however they were made. But good examples of two mic/minimalist recording is helpful too.

I want to get a feel for what good recordings sound like on my system and then can ultimately compare to my own recordings to see what's working.

Mics: Schoeps MK5,MK41 CMC6,KCY,KC5 | AKG ck63,ck1 C460B,C480B | DPA 4061 | Naiant X-R card,hyper | CA-14o,c
Pres: Sound Devices USBPre2 | Naiant Tinybox | Church Audio 9200, UBB
Recs: Zoom F8 | Edirol R-44 | Sony PCM-M10 | Tascam DR-2d
Video: Sony CX550(2), CX580, HX9

LMA: http://archive.org/bookmarks/ultfris101

Offline DSatz

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #338 on: February 05, 2015, 07:21:03 PM »
I greatly admire the recordings of Marc Aubort. One CD that I often use when checking out a stereo playback system is a set of recordings of music by Busoni with Michael Gielen conducting the Cinncinnati Symphony Orchestra (Vox Cum Laude MCD 10019).

It may be out of print, but I see a number of copies available on a certain well-known Web site with the same name as a big river in South America.

--best regards
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #339 on: August 08, 2015, 10:32:18 AM »
Broadcast / recording setup for BBC Proms:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/nov14/articles/proms.htm
I am hitting my head against the walls, but the walls are giving way.
- Gustav Mahler

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Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #340 on: September 19, 2015, 04:30:16 PM »
Something to listen to if any are inclined.  The biggest "band" I've ever recorded (the N S O). I wonder what the Schoeps might have gotten in this, but I didn't think they'd be practical and it turned out that the audience was fully lit. I'm very happy with this anyway.  One rap on this room is it doesn't usually sound too good but for this music it was designed for from up close I thought it sounded very nice.

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Download link
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Gear:
Audio:
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Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline OhioHead

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #341 on: September 25, 2015, 10:53:57 PM »
Hey gang assuming you got permission from the local band director (copy right a side), if u only had 2 LD's would you tape 5 or so feet back of the director w/ card's a bit wide to pick everything up (audio)?

Online Gutbucket

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #342 on: February 02, 2016, 12:43:06 PM »
Hi OhioHead,

Unfortunately it looks like your post went neglected 4 months back.  Sorry about that.  If still interested, try posting in the new Team Classical and Camber Music thread at the link below..
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Online Gutbucket

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #343 on: February 02, 2016, 12:44:33 PM »
Locking this thread at page 24.  The classical music recording discussion continues in a new thread over in the Team Boards section: Team Classical and Chamber Music-
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=176244.msg2174981#msg2174981

« Last Edit: February 02, 2016, 12:51:28 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

 

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