Topic: Zoom H2N advice regarding concerts

[Justinovitch]

Hello everybody!

I have been checking out this forum for the past few weeks looking through some threads regarding the taping of concerts. I usually film portions of gigs with my Kodak Zi8 and the internal mic is decent, but gets major distortion when its a loud gig. That's why I bought an external mic ( Sony ECM-DS30P ). It provides my recordings with better sound, yet lacks bass. I have been thinking about getting a Sony PCM-M10, Olympus LS-10 / 11 and a Zoom H2. I have found loads of recordings that were made with the Zoom H2 internal mics and those sounded great so I finally decided to get a Zoom H2N because I could get one pretty cheap ( I will recieve it tomorrow ).

I want to take it to local / bigger gigs and record using the internal mics. I am never in front of the stage because I happen to visit a lot of metal shows and don't want to be crushed / get my gear knocked out of my hands ( Slayer concert with a recorder in the frontrow is definatly a no-no ). I am however always standing, never up in the balconies or something when in a larger venue so I am directly facing the sound. I usually put my hand in the air with my Kodak to pick up the sound and film it. I don't really care that much for the video anymore, I just want to have good audio, so that is why I will replace my Zi8 / DS30P combo for the Zoom. And the battery life is much better with a Zoom recorder when compared to my Zi8.

So ( finally ) my question, what are the best settings to tape a ( usually ) loud metal gig? Using low cut and low gain? Or just one of them? My ECM-DS30P picks up audience noice like mad when on medium gain so I know that it's better to keep it low, but don't know if that will hurt the recording when using something like the Zoom H2N. And I don't need PERFECT audio, just audio without distortion, cracking and hissing ( might sound weird, but I only record for myself / Youtube, nothing else ) and with some of the bass intact.

I will finish my post with some samples with my Kodak Zi8 with and without internal mics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax8nR_iD1oc - Kodak Zi8 using internal mic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfUCVMLE3d8 - Kodak Zi8 using internal mic with distortion / cracking.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6SE7TQzZx8 - Kodak Zi8 using external mic DS30P with low gain

[acidjack]

If you want to record metal shows without distortion, don't bother with the internal mics on the Zoom or anything else with internal mics.  Those things are designed for recording lectures, maybe a band practice here and there, not super-amplified loud music. I don't know what you've heard with an H2N that you consider to be acceptable quality, but I've listened to several of the "A+" rated attempts on DIME and thought they were all garbage - and I'd say I am in the (large) majority on that.  Anyone making even a little effort can do a whole lot better!

You don't need to spend a lot of money to have something that will work, but you will need to put in a bit more effort than a Zoom in the shirt pocket.  I see you already tried that Sony external mic, so at least you seem willing to go that route. 

The least expensive and best options for you are the Church Audio CA-11 plus a simple battery box; that setup is less than $150.  You can pair that with the Zoom you have and be good to go.  If you're in Europe, there are other options that may be easier and faster to get over there that are good, like the Soundman OKM-IIR or some of the Microphone Madness mic models (though some have an issue with distortion unless they are modified).  The Sound Professionals line of mics (soundprofessionals.com) also has several that will work for you, including the SP-CMC-2 http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-CMC-2 It is one of their least expensive models, and while not that heavy on the bass, that is probably a good thing for you doing metal shows.  Just be sure to add the "low sensitivity" modification to anything you buy from them. 

[Justinovitch]

Thank you for your reply.

The Soundman OKM-IIR is waaaaay to expensive ( it's 375 euros over here in the Netherlands ) especially when compared to the much cheaper CA-11.

I have read a lot of good things about the Church Audio CA-11 mics ( having them on my shirt collar + awesome sound quality sounds pretty darn good! ) and it's good to know that I can use them with my Zoom H2N. However, do I really need a battery box? It might sound stupid, I just want to know if hooking them directly to my Zoom H2N isn't good enough? I have heard some decent recordings using a Zoom recorder and a 80 dollar Sony condenser mic ( similair to my DS30P but a bit more expensive ) too, and those people didn't use a battery box either. Sorry for the ( perhaps ) silly questions, I just ask every question I can think of right now because you guys know everything regarding this subject

[acidjack]

Yes, you must have a battery box.  Running Mics>Battery Box>line in is one major way you avoid distortion.  The mic inputs on most of these inexpensive recorders do not properly power most small mics.  The Church Audio battery box is tiny - basically only a couple of centimeters wide and one centimeter or so deep - it attaches on top of, rather than actually holds, the battery, but it's quite stable. 

The other mics I recommended like the SP-CMC-2, and I think most of the Microphone Madness models, are in the sub-$200 range.

Lots of people like these: http://microphonemadness.com/products/mmmincarster1.htm - though do check about needing the low-sensitivity mod.  $95.

Church Audio's product is popular for several reasons, price being a big one, but also because unlike most of the other types of mics people use for low-profile recording, Chris' mics are actually designed for recording music in the way we do it, whereas most of the others are simply lavalier mics that are really more for vocal/broadcast/close mic-ing an instrument type purposes. Some are also low-profile choir mics, but again, not exactly what you are talking about doing.

[kisspep]

I'm in Europe, and here on "Yard Sale" forum, sure you can get some Church Audio CA-11 or CA-14 with battery box ( or a preamp) soon, shipped from USA.

It only spent no more than 2 week to get my new (used) CA-9000 preamp with a CA-11 cardioid mics from an USA member on "Yard Sale".

This audio came from Tascam DR-07 / CA-9000 / CA-11:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVGN0skrNUc

[Justinovitch]

I'm in Europe, and here on "Yard Sale" forum, sure you can get some Church Audio CA-11 or CA-14 with battery box ( or a preamp) soon, shipped from USA.

It only spent no more than 2 week to get my new (used) CA-9000 preamp with a CA-11 cardioid mics from an USA member on "Yard Sale".

This audio came from Tascam DR-07 / CA-9000 / CA-11:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVGN0skrNUc

Thanks for the tip! I have seen some videos of the CA-11 in action and I am impressed, I must have them One more question, will the Bat 2B be enough? It's a bit smaller and costs less when compared to the CA-9000. Thanks for al the great advice guys!

[bryonsos]

Tough love, but here it goes. Throw the Zoom in the trash (or sell it on eBay). Don't be a zoomie if you really want to tape. Buy an M10, a battery box, and some B3s. If you skip the battery box for now, you can still make good tapes. One of our resident cable makers can help with terminating the B3s in a mini plug and can do the mod for high SPL situations.

[daspyknows]

Tough love, but here it goes. Throw the Zoom in the trash (or sell it on eBay). Don't be a zoomie if you really want to tape. Buy an M10, a battery box, and some B3s. If you skip the battery box for now, you can still make good tapes. One of our resident cable makers can help with terminating the B3s in a mini plug and can do the mod for high SPL situations.

Classic "Don't be a zoomie if you really want to tape". 

[acidjack]

Tough love, but here it goes. Throw the Zoom in the trash (or sell it on eBay). Don't be a zoomie if you really want to tape. Buy an M10, a battery box, and some B3s. If you skip the battery box for now, you can still make good tapes. One of our resident cable makers can help with terminating the B3s in a mini plug and can do the mod for high SPL situations.

Classic "Don't be a zoomie if you really want to tape".

Guys - you know I agree with you about Zooms, but as noted, he's already bought the Zoom.  While it would not be my choice of recorder, I don't see why it's not at least passable when used with external mics line-in.  No?

[ScoobieKW]

Tough love, but here it goes. Throw the Zoom in the trash (or sell it on eBay). Don't be a zoomie if you really want to tape. Buy an M10, a battery box, and some B3s. If you skip the battery box for now, you can still make good tapes. One of our resident cable makers can help with terminating the B3s in a mini plug and can do the mod for high SPL situations.

Classic "Don't be a zoomie if you really want to tape".

Guys - you know I agree with you about Zooms, but as noted, he's already bought the Zoom.  While it would not be my choice of recorder, I don't see why it's not at least passable when used with external mics line-in.  No?

From what I've read the noisy input issues of the older Zooms is resolved. While not as good as my M10 it should work. After he gets mics and preamp/battery box sorted out, then I'd suggest revisiting the recorder.

[bryonsos]

OK. Keep the zoom, smash the built in mics with a hammer, get a battery box and some B3s. Make nice tapes. Easy.

[capnhook]

OK. Keep the zoom, smash the built in mics with a hammer, get a battery box and some B3s. Make nice tapes. Easy.

Poke 'em with a little needle a million times, and fill 'em with superglue.  I heard that works.

[bryonsos]

OK. Keep the zoom, smash the built in mics with a hammer, get a battery box and some B3s. Make nice tapes. Easy.

Poke 'em with a little needle a million times, and fill 'em with superglue.  I heard that works.

Fuck! Superglue!? Best DIY post here for months. Why didn't I think of that?

[DigiGal]

OK. Keep the zoom, smash the built in mics with a hammer, get a battery box and some B3s. Make nice tapes. Easy.

Poke 'em with a little needle a million times, and fill 'em with superglue.  I heard that works.

Fuck! Superglue!? Best DIY post here for months. Why didn't I think of that?

  Crazy Ghetto.  Thanks for the laugh guys!

Reminds me of a guitar player I knew in school that couldn't afford a distortion pedal so he poked several holes in his speaker cone with a pencil to achieve distortion.

[db]

dunno. never heard either the c11s or the zoom h2o until reading this post. i listened with my headphones at work just now. while i think the c11s sound a bit *better*, i wouldn't be all like little miss snooty snatches about the differences. the c11s are nothing i'd ever write home about, based on the sample of zack above, nor the zoom, but in a good room, controlled environment and a (maybe) a bit of post, the zoooom sounds like it'd work ok. certainly nothing as bad as smashing the internals to bits, filling them with glue, or shitting on them =  in comparison with those c11s. seems like for the money, the o.p. will do fine until he upgrades sometime.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkZBVGFZPcI