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Author Topic: N Box/Tinybox Question  (Read 9543 times)

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Offline fmaderjr

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N Box/Tinybox Question
« on: September 12, 2012, 07:44:40 AM »
Will a properly configured Tinybox power all the Schoep's caps that can be powered by an N-Box? If so, I'm wondering why anyone would prefer to run an N-Box, given the Tinybox's far superior battery life, much lower cost, and smaller size. There must be advantages in running an N-Box that I am missing. Can anyone fill me in on the advantages of using an N-Box?
AT853's (all caps)/CM-300 Franken Naks (CP-1,2,3)/JBMod Nak 700's (CP-701,702) > Tascam DR-680
Or Sonic Studios DSM-6 > M10

Offline Craig T

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Re: N Box/Tinybox Question
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2012, 08:41:47 AM »
Sound (which is a preference more than an advantage).  With 9v rechargeables, the NBox powering isn't as problematic.  A set of 4 gets you 4+ hours x2 (swapping pairs) for a total of 8+ hours on a charge.  They are both small enough to easily stealth.  NBox is more idiot-proof with its locking on/off switch and fixed gain.  NBox is black which is obviously more stealth-like compared to the aluminum TB.
Schoeps cmc6/4v / Line Audio CM3, OM1 / ADK A51 / Church Audio CA-14
Naiant Tinybox v2.2 / NBox(P) / Church Audio ST9200 / CA-UGLY
Sony PCM-M10 / Tascam DR-70D / Zoom F3 / Zoom F6

Offline darktrain

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Re: N Box/Tinybox Question
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2012, 10:36:08 AM »
just to reiterate what craig said since he responded while i was preparing my post ,,,

you get what you pay for and in my opinion the nbox is a superior device over the tinybox in two key areas.

1) quite simply, the nbox (and nbox+) sound better (in my opinion)

2) the nbox has only one switch (lockable power on/off), which cannot be accidentally moved while recording.  the tinybox has multiple non-locking switches, which control both the power and gain range, two things i will not tolerate being adjusted by mistake.

i personally own an nbox, a pfa that i couple with my nbox cables and at some point will probably buy a tinybox to run with them as well, just for shits and giggles.  i think jon makes great products but when i'm stealthing i'm grabbing the nbox every time.  jon's gear is great for people who already own an nbox because now we have a lot more options available to us when we don't feel like running nicky's box.  for example, i can run my nbox cables > pfa setup into any p48 preamp i desire, with no discernible loss (to my ears) in sound quality and i gain the 'flavor' of the preamp.

what i'd recommend to people wanting to get into schoeps on the cheap (under 1k) is have nicky (schoepsnbox) build a set of nbox cables and buy a pfa from jon.  find a set of caps and a p48 source and you're good to go.

On the Tinybox switches, I have used one for about 50 shows now, almost all "less than open" and have never had a switch issue, they are small and very tight, would be very tough to accidently flip them, esspecially when you have your input and output plugged in, they act as a guard.

Offline fmaderjr

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Re: N Box/Tinybox Question
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2012, 11:36:10 AM »
Thanks guys!
AT853's (all caps)/CM-300 Franken Naks (CP-1,2,3)/JBMod Nak 700's (CP-701,702) > Tascam DR-680
Or Sonic Studios DSM-6 > M10

stevetoney

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Re: N Box/Tinybox Question
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2012, 01:02:40 PM »
Don't forget that the nbox includes a pair of active cables.  You'd need to buy a pair of those+PFA, CMRs+PFA, or a KCY to run schoeps capsules with a tinybox.  That accounts for much of the price difference between the base nbox rig and a tinybox.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 01:05:17 PM by tonedeaf »

Offline Craig T

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Re: N Box/Tinybox Question
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2012, 03:05:44 PM »
Don't forget that the nbox includes a pair of active cables.  You'd need to buy a pair of those+PFA, CMRs+PFA, or a KCY to run schoeps capsules with a tinybox.  That accounts for much of the price difference between the base nbox rig and a tinybox.

Yes - good point.  Even if you get a TB configured for NBox cables, that setup is probably only a few hundred cheaper than going the NBox route.  I don't know what Nicky is charging these days for just the Collette cables, but I know those Schoeps Collettes are stupid expensive for what they are.
Schoeps cmc6/4v / Line Audio CM3, OM1 / ADK A51 / Church Audio CA-14
Naiant Tinybox v2.2 / NBox(P) / Church Audio ST9200 / CA-UGLY
Sony PCM-M10 / Tascam DR-70D / Zoom F3 / Zoom F6

Offline jbell

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Re: N Box/Tinybox Question
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2012, 06:55:19 PM »
Here are links to Schoeps MK4>Nbox+>M10, MK4>KCY>Tinybox>M10 and MK4>KCY>Littlebox>M10!  Not a comp, but the same rig with different pres.  I picked shows I personally like the sound of. 

http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=548340     (Nbox+)

https://archive.org/details/blitzentrapper2012-07-01.blitzentrapper2012-07-01  (tinybox)

https://archive.org/details/kimock2012-05-30.kimock2012-05-30  (Littlebox)
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 06:57:18 PM by jmbell »
Mics: DPA ST4011ER & 4018ER | Neumann kk 184 > Nbob/PFA
Preamps: DPA MMA 6000 | Audioroot Femto
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre-10 II | Sony PCM A10

-20        -12         -6        TDS   (32/48)     
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|Record|  Runtime: 4:19.99  {|||] 75%

Offline willndmb

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Re: N Box/Tinybox Question
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2012, 09:51:44 PM »
just to reiterate what craig said since he responded while i was preparing my post ,,,

you get what you pay for and in my opinion the nbox is a superior device over the tinybox in two key areas.

1) quite simply, the nbox (and nbox+) sound better (in my opinion)

2) the nbox has only one switch (lockable power on/off), which cannot be accidentally moved while recording.  the tinybox has multiple non-locking switches, which control both the power and gain range, two things i will not tolerate being adjusted by mistake.

i personally own an nbox, a pfa that i couple with my nbox cables and at some point will probably buy a tinybox to run with them as well, just for shits and giggles.  i think jon makes great products but when i'm stealthing i'm grabbing the nbox every time.  jon's gear is great for people who already own an nbox because now we have a lot more options available to us when we don't feel like running nicky's box.  for example, i can run my nbox cables > pfa setup into any p48 preamp i desire, with no discernible loss (to my ears) in sound quality and i gain the 'flavor' of the preamp.

what i'd recommend to people wanting to get into schoeps on the cheap (under 1k) is have nicky (schoepsnbox) build a set of nbox cables and buy a pfa from jon.  find a set of caps and a p48 source and you're good to go.

On the Tinybox switches, I have used one for about 50 shows now, almost all "less than open" and have never had a switch issue, they are small and very tight, would be very tough to accidently flip them, esspecially when you have your input and output plugged in, they act as a guard.
yeah, you have a better chance of turning the knob on a m10 then you do flipping a switch on a tb
Mics - AKG ck61/ck63 (c480b & Naiant actives), SP-BMC-2
XLR Cables - Silver Path w/Darktrain stubbies
Interconnect Cables - Dogstar (XLR), Darktrain (RCA > 1/8) (1/8 > 1/8), and Kind Kables (1/8f > 1/4)
Preamps - Naiant Littlebox & Tinybox
Recorders - PCM-M10 & DR-60D

Offline hi and lo

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Re: N Box/Tinybox Question
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2012, 01:41:40 PM »
Well if tinybox is not tempting enough yet, the next version will have USB, then after that I'll be working on an anti-wook death ray :D

I'd love to weigh in here, but I only have a few minutes in my busy work day to post. There are HUGE philosophical design differences between the Nbox and Tinybox and while I agree with most all of the comments above, none of them give the whole picture.

To start, the nbox is based on a high current, very low noise op amps design first published in the late 80s. It's a fantastic "no-compromise" circuit, but obviously tears through 9v batteries. Part of that is just inefficiency in the 4x9v design; two of the 9vs (the "every other show" ones) see very small current drain because they are powering the FET in the active cables. Current draw is about 1-2mA per cable and two fresh 9v's would run all-day long. The other two (the "every show" 9vs) are powering the ICs in a +/- configuration, so the battery life is essentially the mA of a single 9v and the current draw is an order of magnitude higher, so they only last about 4 hours. It wouldn't be too hard to design a 'drop-in' power supply that could generate the necessary +/- power supplies (15v would be good for ICs and the FET in the active cable) and I imagine we'll see a solution for this in the next year. I'm working on it when I can, but power supplies are not my forte by any means whereas Jon could probably sketch it out in about 5 minutes.'

The Tinybox, on the other hand, is a modern low-current design (single-supply, jon?) and is plain-and-simple apples to oranges. Personally, every experience I have had with the Tinybox has been good and while it's not an ultra low-noise design, it's still extremely clean. If sonic comparisons are going to be made, I think it's really only fair to consider that Jon does make a high-current, low-noise Tinybox and is philosophically more in-line with the Nbox design.

A few other considerations I think are worthwhile (probably more so than the switch or input/output connectors on either box) would be the design of the cables themselves and the intended use case. The Nbox cables generally come with very thin mogami cable and are infinitely better for stealthing. Genuine KC or KCY cables come with much beefier cable and overall their construction is far more robust, but that makes stealthing riskier and cumbersome. I don't stealth at all anymore, so my preference would almost always be the KC or KCY cables.

I also think that customer service is a strong consideration. Although you will never find anyone on this board say anything negative about nick, maker of the nbox, and his customer service, there will always be a difference between working with a legitimate company with a permanent fixture in the marketplace versus an entrepreneur/hobbiest. When you buy a pair of Schoeps cables, you are essentially paying up-front for a lifetime of guaranteed repair service at-cost. Schoeps will nearly always service used equipment and as a legitimate business can proprely set and meet most expectations. On the flip side, Nick has a real life and might now always be around. It's just like what happened to Bill and Rick (the creator and former 'nbox' makers).. they decided other things were more important in life and as a result, were no longer available to service existing gear. Again, I can't stress enough how good Nick has been in providing customer service, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be a consideration.

One thing to consider is that other than the thinner cable of the nbox cables, there is really no advantage in their circuit design or sonic signature, at least not from my perspective. They're incompatible for preamp/powering design reasons and if you really needed to go stealth, a route you could go would be to take a pair of KC or KCY cables and have the stock cable replaced with the mogami thin cable. You'd need someone competent to do this, but it's not hard to disassemble the collettes and change out the cable. Needs to be done cleanly w/ careful attention paid to removing flux from soldering (although there's really not any soldering being done to the high-impedance side of the FET), but otherwise is straight forward. The design of the schoeps colettes is very slick, making it an easy job.


Edit to Add: One thing to mention regarding the nbox design.... and this may shock some of you nbox fluffers, but the THD performance of the IC's in use is really only 'good enough' for 16-20 bit recording. Better ICs do exist for recording in the 24 bit world, but I'm not sure what more you could expect from a 20+ year old design.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 01:44:43 PM by hi and lo »

Offline Sebastian

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Re: N Box/Tinybox Question
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2012, 04:54:10 AM »
I am thinking maybe replace the standard red clip LED with UV LED, then aim the tinybox at the wook, and when he yells "Freebird!" then in 20 years he'll get skin cancer :D

Can we get something similar that works on clappers?

cashandkerouac

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Re: N Box/Tinybox Question
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2012, 12:57:22 PM »
I am thinking maybe replace the standard red clip LED with UV LED, then aim the tinybox at the wook, and when he yells "Freebird!" then in 20 years he'll get skin cancer :D

Can we get something similar that works on clappers?

oh yes, please give me something that will shut those darn clapper up!  can't stand those clappers.

Offline willndmb

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Re: N Box/Tinybox Question
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2012, 01:16:46 PM »
I am thinking maybe replace the standard red clip LED with UV LED, then aim the tinybox at the wook, and when he yells "Freebird!" then in 20 years he'll get skin cancer :D

Can we get something similar that works on clappers?

It works on anybody who causes your signal to peak!  Just aim the box at them, and eventually* they'll die!  :o






* that is, their actuarial life expectancy may be shortened ;)
how much extra for adding a switch that can be turned on to shock them when they touch your stand
Mics - AKG ck61/ck63 (c480b & Naiant actives), SP-BMC-2
XLR Cables - Silver Path w/Darktrain stubbies
Interconnect Cables - Dogstar (XLR), Darktrain (RCA > 1/8) (1/8 > 1/8), and Kind Kables (1/8f > 1/4)
Preamps - Naiant Littlebox & Tinybox
Recorders - PCM-M10 & DR-60D

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: N Box/Tinybox Question
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2012, 07:21:28 PM »
I am thinking maybe replace the standard red clip LED with UV LED, then aim the tinybox at the wook, and when he yells "Freebird!" then in 20 years he'll get skin cancer :D

Can we get something similar that works on clappers?

oh yes, please give me something that will shut those darn clapper up!  can't stand those clappers.

Buy some mk41s and you will be AMAZED ;D
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250|0 KCY's (x2) ->
Naiant +60v|Low Noise PFA's (x2) ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's (x3) ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/j9eu80jpuaubz/Recordings

Offline ArchivalAudio

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Re: N Box/Tinybox Question
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2012, 02:22:56 AM »
I am thinking maybe replace the standard red clip LED with UV LED, then aim the tinybox at the wook, and when he yells "Freebird!" then in 20 years he'll get skin cancer :D
Awesome! well worth the price.
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Main Mics: Milab VM-44 Links • Milab DC-196's (Matched  Pair)  • MBHO KA500 or KA300 •
PreAmps:  BaybNbox  • Naiant LittleBox • Naiant [Milab VM44] TinyBox • Naiant PIPsqueak
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