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Author Topic: DSD  (Read 793 times)

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Offline weroflu

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DSD
« on: April 17, 2017, 01:13:18 PM »
« Last Edit: April 17, 2017, 01:15:52 PM by weroflu »

Offline 108 Ohms

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Re: DSD
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2017, 05:58:52 AM »
Well, I'm proud to be an Okie, from Muskogee
We don't get our bits from DSD

 ;D
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: DSD
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2017, 09:29:08 AM »
Up against the wall, redbook lover
Mother who raised PCM so well
He's thirty four and drinkin' in a honky tonk
Kickin' hippies' asses and raisin' hell

 ;)
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Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: DSD
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2017, 12:52:03 PM »
There is a well read thread here about the DSD. I get it from an engineering viewpoint and mainly understand the algorithms behind it, however, the overall performance compared to cost doesn't cause me to want to buy or run DSD.

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=165831.0;all
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=174903.msg2161860#msg2161860

That said, those KORG DSD recorders sure are pretty!
http://www.ayre.com/insights_dsdvspcm.htm
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: DSD
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2017, 01:59:45 PM »
I'm more than happy with 16/44.1 done well, record at 24/48 myself, and find significantly more value in additional channels rather than extended bandwidth.  But to each his own, as long as the discussions remain as fact-based, truthful, and honest as possible.

The rhodinium-plated, cyrogenically-treated, DC-biased, analog singage along the dessolate desert highway reads: 18 miles to Muskogee
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations > virtual teleportation time-machine experience

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: DSD
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2017, 02:20:22 PM »
I'm more than happy with 16/44.1 done well, record at 24/48 myself, and find significantly more value in additional channels rather than extended bandwidth.  But to each his own, as long as the discussions remain as fact-based, truthful, and honest as possible.

The rhodinium-plated, cyrogenically-treated, DC-biased, analog singage along the dessolate desert highway reads: 18 miles to Muskogee
Yes, it is but a choice, one of many, we recordists have to consider. Another tool to choose from to put or not into your recording toolbox.
I've been to Muskogee and mainly just drove on through to the other side.
music IS love

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Offline weroflu

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Re: DSD
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2017, 05:02:18 PM »
I can't remember if the following point was in the linked video or on the company's forum. I do not understand dsd yet, but I would like to.

Ted's point was that what people think are dsd recordings are not true dsd. And this is notwithstanding the old bait and switch of dsd that has been converted to high rate pcm for processing and then back again, or where the original source was low rate pcm, etc.  It has to do with how the adc is designed/implemented. Some of the lower cost so called dsd adc's use decimation filters in the stream so it's not actually dsd. I looked at the TI pcm 4222 for example which claims dsd adc but according to the PS audio engineer this would not qualify as real dsd.

page 15 of the pcm4222 datasheet

'the multibit modulator outputs are also routed to a direct stream digital engine (dsd), which converts the multi-bit data to one-bit data'

I want to understand what exactly that means.

Supposed true dsd adc's only exist at the very high end. I would like to at least audition one of these and hear for myself.

The concensus on TS from what I read was that the m2r and pcm d-100 dsd were not worth the effort compared to good pcm.


Offline 108 Ohms

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Re: DSD
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2017, 05:32:42 PM »
Up against the wall, redbook lover
Mother who raised PCM so well
He's thirty four and drinkin' in a honky tonk
Kickin' hippies' asses and raisin' hell

 ;)

 ;D


About DSD, and multibit... because we're dealing with a streaming format, multibit can compensate for pulse distortions or loss by having a 4-1 ratio
if 3 of 4 are high, one was lost go with 1(high), if 3 of 4 are low, it's low(0), if 2/4 skip (but that is statistically much less likely) 
Of course, all high or all low is a slam-dunk.
Does that make sense?

Any significant signal loss is impactful, but that is true of PCM and analog as well.
It's all about the odds.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2017, 05:41:13 PM by 108 Ohms »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: DSD
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2017, 05:59:32 PM »
To confuse things further, there is DSD-wide and DXD, which are mulit-bit formats (8 bits I think) at high rates, used for editing DSD.  Those formats are pretty much high sample rate and lower bit-depth PCM as far as I'm aware, providing large bandwith for converted 1-bit DSD information to fit comfortably, including the frequency-shifted noise.  Similar transitional format manipulation goes on within the ADC/DAC depending on the implementation, or so I've read.

The basic information theory thing is number of bits verses sample rate, slice it how ever you want as long as it adds up (or mulitplies, rather) to provide the sufficient bandwith required.  The devil is in the details of how to manipulate it, and in the conversion details to and from analog at each end.

Basic information theory and PCM is confusing enough for folks. DSD and it's complications seem to confuse everybody even more, without really doing away with the need for PCM (which thankfully isn't going anywhere regardless), so to me it just seems a needless waste of braincells and other resources IMHO.  I sometimes think it was invented just to keep audiophiles arguing so they don't notice more important things that really matter.  But I know it was really just basic human greed that motivated it, cloaked in false claims (thanks Sony).

I think we're getting close to Texas now.  This certainly isn't Kansas anymore, Toto.  Carry on my wayward sons and don't let the radiator boil over..

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Offline Moke

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Re: DSD
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2017, 11:06:15 PM »
Is there an easy way, hopefully free way, to convert DSD to 24.xx .wav?
I have a bunch of DVRA1000 DSD recordings, a few of which I never converted with the software package that came with the DVRA1000.
I'd sure like to get those to a .wav format.
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Offline beatkilla

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Re: DSD
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2017, 07:42:43 AM »
Tascam hi res editor is free.
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