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Offline dakapc

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Recommended portable mic recorder
« on: June 11, 2015, 04:18:08 PM »
I'd like some input based on the forum user's past experience.
If you could use ANY portable battery powered mic/recorder what have any of you found to have the best sound?

Here are the conditions:
Stealth is not an issue.
however, no feed from the SB is allowed per corporate policy.
the venue holds 1500-2000 people
the mic would be 80-90 feet away from the stage dead center and level with the house stacks at the stage. (see picture)
It has to last a minimum of 4 hours on it's own internal batteries, no phantom power.

I have used a few mics for this including a zoom h6, but I'd like to hear some other feedback before I buy something more elaborate to "experiment with"


Thanks!

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Re: Recommended portable mic recorder
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2015, 08:33:54 PM »
There's a couple of hot looking women in that audience ...

Offline dakapc

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Re: Recommended portable mic recorder
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2015, 09:38:46 PM »
haha! question answered!  :D

well maybe not quite  :-\

Offline dyneq

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Re: Recommended portable mic recorder
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2015, 10:35:00 PM »
It sounds like you are looking to use the built in mice on the recorder, correct?

If so, you may not get many opinions because most here use external mice for the added placement flexibility and potential for a better sounding result.

From that position, I think cardioid capsules would be preferable to Omnis. The only recorder I've used with cards is the Olympus LS-11. I liked the sound, but never used it as far away from the source as you want to. Some portables allow you to adjust the capsule angle, and I think that would be beneficial for your intended use.

What is the distance to the PA? Does the PA have 2 stacks on either side of the stage?

Offline dakapc

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Re: Recommended portable mic recorder
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2015, 11:03:51 PM »
distance is roughly 70-80 ft, yes they are on both sides of the stage. it is in the house of blues. so in most cases they drown out the crowd, not to mention most big bands bring all their own PA's on stage.

let's change the options, as long as I can battery power the mic I can use the H6 to record it.
So with that said, I am looking an amazing mic that if need be I can use with the h6 as the recorder.

that should open the floor to more suggestions since there appears to not be many, if any, viable replacements for the h6 as an all in one unit.

So let's hear some battery powered mic suggestions to feed into the h6.
no price range, I just want suggestions or samples based off personal experience.

Offline yltfan

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Re: Recommended portable mic recorder
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2015, 11:23:18 PM »
Nakamichi 300's are decent battery powered mics, and most of the sets you will find come with card and omni capsules. You can also find shotgun capsules.
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Offline John Willett

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Re: Recommended portable mic recorder
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2015, 05:14:29 AM »
There's a couple of hot looking women in that audience ...

Must be in the USA or UK then - if that was in Bratislava or Prague, then 90% of the women would be "hot".

As a friend said - "why do you never turn round to look at a beautiful woman in Bratislava?: - Answer: because there is already another walking towards you.  ;D

Offline jagraham

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Re: Recommended portable mic recorder
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2015, 01:39:33 PM »
Agreed on the CM-300s, or any Naks, but they might not be too easy to find.

Agreed on cards or hypers vs. omnis. The only purpose omnis would serve here would be for a comp or to mix in a 4 track.

You might get some better suggestions if you specified your budget range.
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Offline pdxdanmusic

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Re: Recommended portable mic recorder
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2015, 02:56:34 PM »
Rode NT4 can be battery powered and has cardioid capsules.

Offline dyneq

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Re: Recommended portable mic recorder
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2015, 03:07:39 PM »
Doesn't the H4 have phantom power XLRs? Why limit your choices to battery powered mics?

Offline pohaku

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Re: Recommended portable mic recorder
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2015, 04:36:37 PM »
For 2 channels, if you aren't going to use separate mics, and don't want to ante up for a Nagra handheld, the Sony D50 is still a nice option.  The onboard mics are cards and swivel.  Well built.  Runs about 12 hours on a set of batteries.  Records up to 96 kHz/24-bit. Optical digital input and output.  Downside is that it takes Sony memory sticks for recording media (not really that big a deal).  Discontinued, but used ones in good condition run about $350 or so (several recently available on this board).  I bought a used one a year ago and I am quite happy with it.  I also have an M10, a DR-70, DR-680 and a DR2D, and the D50 definitely gets used when I am too lazy or too much in a hurry to get mics and the rest of my kit out.  There is the new D100 out, but I haven't tried it and there have been some reports about issues with its suitability for highly amplified music.  Now if the M10 had decent cards instead of omnis . . .
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Offline dakapc

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Re: Recommended portable mic recorder
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2015, 05:43:46 PM »
Rode NT4 can be battery powered and has cardioid capsules.

anyone have any samples from the nt4? I love the rode mics but I have never personally tried the nt4

Offline dakapc

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Re: Recommended portable mic recorder
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2015, 05:45:54 PM »
You might get some better suggestions if you specified your budget range.

No budget, I am ready to take a plunge on this.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Recommended portable mic recorder
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2015, 05:53:05 PM »
Built-in mics aren't going to do a very good job from way back there.  Regular mics won't either but can do a lot better.  My three options to consider:


1) Supercardioid pattern mics positioned on the wooden railings where the green circles are.  Pointed directly forward, parallel to each other. 

Perhaps a bit wide, but the elevation benefit of the higher railings getting them above the heads of the audience trumps that.  Plus they'll be parallel, the stage is 80 feet away or more, and the PA mix will be primarily if not all mono.  Basically this is a wide spaced omni setup, except substituting the most forward directional mic pattern available (supercardioid), with them pointed in such a way as to maximize that forward directionality and minimize pickup of reflected sound as much as possible.

[Edit- Um, I'm obviously not overly observant today- as it's been pointed out to me that there is no mirrored wall directly behind the SBD, so the following does not apply here.  Bummer.  [Edit2- strike that.  It's only a bummer for the following two options.  No wall there is likely to mean the front of the SBD better will be sounding than it would be if there was a hard reflective wall 8' behind.  And no bummer for me because I find my little visual foible pretty funny.]  I'll leave the following here because it's applicable to other situations and represents a underappreciated not often traveled path I've found useful.]


2) Small omnidirectional microphones, gaffer-taped directly onto the mirrored back wall, spaced ~3-5 feet apart.

This may be your best option in terms of equipment cost and what you can get away with (if you are allowed to do so).  Any small recorder will work.  Use miniature omnis (Church Audio, Naiant, Countryman B3, ATs, DPAs, Coresound, SoundPros, Trams, whatever, there are a zillion options for them) with an inexpensive battery box for powering them.  Mounting them this way can make them work well that far back, sounding clearer and cleaner than even nice cardioids IME.  Mounting them directly onto the back wall boundary-mounts them, increasing their sensitivity by 6dB, changing their direct/reverberant pickup by 3dB, and brightens the diffuse sound, which helps keep it less muddy and cave like sounding from way back there.  It eliminates all reflections off the back wall.  Mounted that way they don't behave like omnis placed out in free space anymore.  As a side economic benefit, typically inexpensive omnis sound better and more natural than inexpensive cardioids, and even more so than inexpensive supercarioids.

To quote Bruce Bartlett on the advantages of boundary mounting-
"Improved reach. Reach is the ability to pick up quiet distant sounds clearly. ..[snip].. The direct-to-reverberant sound ratio is increased because the direct sound is boosted 6 dB near the surface, while the reverberant sound, being incoherent, is boosted only 3 dB. In other words, distant sources sound closer and clearer"


3) If I absolutely had to use built-in mics in that situation, from way back there, I'd use a recorder with good sounding built-in omnis and gaff-tape the recorder directly onto the mirrored back wall.  That will effectively boundary mount the built-in omnis, with the same advantages of the second option above, just without the more appropriate wider spacing between the microphones.  As mentioned above, boundary mounting increases the sensitivity of the microphones by 6dB over their normal sensitivity when used in "free space" so you'll need to turn down the gain by 6dB compared to where you set it if the recorder was placed at the position indicated by your white circle.   

Make sure it doesn't vibrate against the mirror, if necessary place something soft but thin between the recorder and mirror before taping it on.  Be sure to use enough gaffer tape to ensure your recorder doesn't fall off the wall mid-set.  It will be much heavier than taping up a pair of miniature omnis and their attached wires. ;)
« Last Edit: June 12, 2015, 09:41:18 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Recommended portable mic recorder
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2015, 05:54:19 PM »
I'm off to look search for cheap airline tickets to Bratislava.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline pdxdanmusic

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Re: Recommended portable mic recorder
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2015, 05:56:48 PM »
Rode NT4 can be battery powered and has cardioid capsules.

anyone have any samples from the nt4? I love the rode mics but I have never personally tried the nt4

There are shows on live music archive. Do a search for rode nt4. Listening to a few.

Offline jefflester

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Re: Recommended portable mic recorder
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2015, 08:57:50 PM »
2) Small omnidirectional microphones, gaffer-taped directly onto the mirrored back wall, spaced ~3-5 feet apart.
Mirrored back wall? I don't see a mirrored wall there, I see a railing and more people behind the board area back under the overhang.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Recommended portable mic recorder
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2015, 09:10:52 PM »
D'oh!

I totally fell for a self-deceiving visual illusion.  I saw the two vertical lines which seem to be cables as seams between large mirror panel sections and the general image grain of the room in back as dirt on the mirror surface and a reflection of the audience in front.  Ha!  Thought the sbd was directly up against a mirrored wall.

Thanks for the eye up, Jeff!

Well, scratch suggestion 2 & 3 then.   :-[
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline fguidry

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Re: Recommended portable mic recorder
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2015, 10:28:20 PM »
Rode NT4 can be battery powered and has cardioid capsules.

anyone have any samples from the nt4? I love the rode mics but I have never personally tried the nt4

Not a show, just a close miked comparo.

NT4 into H6
H6 XY

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Offline John Willett

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Re: Recommended portable mic recorder
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2015, 08:06:13 AM »
I'm off to look search for cheap airline tickets to Bratislava.

If you do, give me a shout.

I'm going there next month- would be good to meet.

Offline dakapc

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Re: Recommended portable mic recorder
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2015, 01:42:03 PM »
D'oh!

I totally fell for a self-deceiving visual illusion.  I saw the two vertical lines which seem to be cables as seams between large mirror panel sections and the general image grain of the room in back as dirt on the mirror surface and a reflection of the audience in front.  Ha!  Thought the sbd was directly up against a mirrored wall.

Thanks for the eye up, Jeff!

Well, scratch suggestion 2 & 3 then.   :-[

Yea, that back "mirror" is just plexiglass in-between posts to keep people from touching the sound & light people and to avoid spilt beer on the equipment. Same as the front of the booth, plexi in wood framing, great for mounting clamps though. I am also allowed to mic on stage if I had to, but it would be the same case, probably only allowed 1 up there and no direct feed would be allowed. typically that close never produces much of any desired result anyways. I have a show upcoming this weekend, I guess it is time to do some experimental stuff on separate tracks of the H6 and see if anything works better.

This is the result I got from the H6 on MS RAW last time, so I will leave it at that while I try different options on the other input tracks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBA9phG22yE

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Recommended portable mic recorder
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2015, 03:56:32 PM »
If you can put something on stage I'd ideally use two separate setups: one recorder/set-o-mics on stage, with a generally wide/open stereo configuration; and a second recorder/set-o-mics back at the board, with a configuration that was as directional as possible such as supercards or shotguns PAS (pointed at the stacks).  A combination of those two mixed together correctly will be the most likely way to produce best result given the constraints.  The upfront presence, stereo width, percussion transients, and energetic audience reaction will be provided by the onstage setup- mix that wide.  All you really want from the setup in back is as much focus on the PA as you can get for vocal and instrument clarity, basically used as secondhand substitute for a direct SBD feed- mix that narrow.  EQ both to best advantage and each will cover the flaws of the other, including any shotgun off-axis room nastiness.

Yeah, I realize that's more gear than you probably have, and perhaps more that you want to get into in any case, but I'm throwing it out there simply as my best solution to the puzzle given the description of the situation.  Just as an example of one way to go about thinking about it.

I'm off to look search for cheap airline tickets to Bratislava.
If you do, give me a shout.

I'm going there next month- would be good to meet.

Yes indeed, unfortunately we'll have to meet next time.  Too much going on here to get away the next couple months just for the fun of it.  Enjoy!
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline dakapc

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Re: Recommended portable mic recorder
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2015, 04:37:42 PM »
Yeah, I realize that's more gear than you probably have, and perhaps more that you want to get into in any case, but I'm throwing it out there simply as my best solution to the puzzle given the description of the situation.  Just as an example of one way to go about thinking about it.

Sounds like a plan, at least it's a starting point. I will arrive another hour early to see what I can fit in on stage.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Recommended portable mic recorder
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2015, 05:03:37 PM »
At best the one made from on stage will greatly improve upon the recording made from the back of the room.  At worst its a throw away and you'll still have the one from in back.  Worth a shot.  Good luck.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

 

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