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Offline seethreepo

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newbie p48 advice needed!
« on: May 21, 2016, 12:44:53 PM »
I'm a total rookie to mics requiring p48 power. I just bought some Studio projects  in the yard sale and I need info / options on the best / somewhat economical way to power these bad boys reliably. 
has anyone used the first link I posted below?  am I better off just getting a Deneke?  and I'm a little worried about running out of juice during a show especially given the core sound post about their new phantom power device. 


http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/288123-REG/ART_PHANTOMIIPRO_PHANTOMII_Battery_Operated.html/prm/alsVwDtl



http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/406897-REG/Denecke_PS_2_PS_2_Portable_Dual.html

also will i need a pre amp?  I tape mostly loud rock shows in clubs / arenas. 

TIA

Offline Ronmac

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Re: newbie p48 advice needed!
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2016, 01:13:40 PM »
What recorder are you using? Answers will vary depending on your other devices in use.

Offline chinariderstl

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Re: newbie p48 advice needed!
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2016, 02:54:25 PM »
I would suggest either the Naiant Midbox posted in the Yard Sale or the Core Sound 2Phant.

# Naiant Midbox
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=177733.0

# Core Sound 2Phant
http://www.core-sound.com/2Phant/1.php

You might also keep your eyes peeled for any of the following (either here or on eBay); a Naiant Littlebox, an Aerco MP-2, a Sound Devices MP-2, or an Apogee Mini-MP.

Any one of those options would suit you nicely.  Each will provide P48 phantom power to your mics and will output to your recorder.

HTH, Chris.

EDIT: The options listed above assume you're running a deck that does not have XLR inputs and does not supply P48 phantom power.  In that case, you would need an external pre-amp.  If you, however, have a deck like the DR-100mkII, DR-70D, or DR-680, you would not (necessarily) need an external pre-amp.  For each of those decks, have XLR input and can provide phantom power.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2016, 03:06:55 PM by chinariderstl »
Mics: Audio-Technica AT853's, Avantone CK-40 (Busman mod), Busman BSC1's, DPA 4022's, DPA 4060's
Pres: Apogee Mini-MP, Core Sound Battery Box
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Offline pohaku

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Re: newbie p48 advice needed!
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2016, 04:48:10 PM »
Although if you are running a deck that provides P48, you may want an outboard battery to power it as using phantom power will burn through the onboard batteries pretty quickly.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2016, 01:58:53 AM by pohaku »
Mics: akg c460 (ck61, ck63), c414buls, c568eb; at4049a, 4051a, 4053a, at853; josephson c42; neumann U87, km84i; beyer m130, m160, m500; aea r84; gefell m71, mt711s, m200, m201; sony c38; schoeps cmc6, (mk4, mk21, mk41, mk4v); sennheiser mkh40, md421, md431, md541
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Recorders/converters: dr680, m10, dr-2d, d50, dr70d, zoom f8, 788T SSD CL-8, lynx aurora 8


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Offline voltronic

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Re: newbie p48 advice needed!
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2016, 04:59:03 PM »
Although if you are running a deck that provide P48, you may want an outboard battery to power it as using phantom power will burn through the onboard batteries pretty quickly.

Agreed, and if you are using Studio Projects mics you want a preamp anyway, be it built in to your recorder or outboard.  The ART, Denecke, and Core Sound boxes linked here are power supplies only, but they don't add any gain which you definitely will need. 

Also, keep in mind that these all have XLR outputs, which means whatever device you're connecting them to needs to have compatible inputs.  If you already have a recorder with XLR inputs, then it probably has built-in preamps with phantom power.  If that's the case, then you don't need to buy any of these things - you have everything you need already. ;D
« Last Edit: May 21, 2016, 05:02:09 PM by voltronic »
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Offline DSatz

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Re: newbie p48 advice needed!
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2016, 05:19:17 PM »
Different models of microphone require different amounts of current at 48 Volts--the range goes from < 1 mA all the way up to 10 mA (= the maximum prescribed by the standard). This naturally has a large effect on battery life. It might help to know which particular microphones you're talking about, and/or their specified current consumption.

However, when connecting balanced, professional (or at least "professional-ish") condenser microphones to unbalanced, consumer-style recorder inputs, you have at least two problems, and phantom powering is just one of them. Another is how to convert the balanced signals at the output of the phantom power supply to unbalanced signals; the answer depends on your particular microphones, so you can't count on simple adapters doing the job for you.

A possible further problem is preventing overload in the consumer recording device's input circuits, which aren't usually designed for the high signal levels that professional condenser microphones can put out, particularly when you're recording loud stuff.

This is why the replies above include several suggestions for outboard preamps that include phantom powering, rather than a separate phantom power supply. Such preamps (with balanced inputs, phantom powering and unbalanced outputs) handle all three of the above "interface" issues at once, and are widely used by tapers for that reason.

If you're new to all this, you probably have questions; please don't be afraid to tell us what they are. We'll only make fun of you for a little while We won't make fun of you for asking.

--best regards
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline seethreepo

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Re: newbie p48 advice needed!
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2016, 12:19:48 PM »
Thanks for all the replies so far. I should have mentioned the decks I use in the first post.  I have a roland r-5 and and edirol rh9. Unfortunately neither deck has xlrs or phantom power.  (both have a "line in" input)

Given that new information and based on the mics and need for phantom power would a ua5 preamp solve the phantom and gain issue as well as balanced / unbalanced  (are the studio projects c4's balanced?)
 
I'm ideally looking for an all on one box solution as  my open taping  is a fraction of the stealth / low pro stuff I go to.   


Thanks for the help thus far. 





Offline voltronic

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Re: newbie p48 advice needed!
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2016, 09:08:15 PM »
Thanks for all the replies so far. I should have mentioned the decks I use in the first post.  I have a roland r-5 and and edirol rh9. Unfortunately neither deck has xlrs or phantom power.  (both have a "line in" input)

Given that new information and based on the mics and need for phantom power would a ua5 preamp solve the phantom and gain issue as well as balanced / unbalanced  (are the studio projects c4's balanced?)
 
I'm ideally looking for an all on one box solution as  my open taping  is a fraction of the stealth / low pro stuff I go to.   


Thanks for the help thus far.

Seeing that you want to be compact, that leaves two options:

1. If you want to use your C4s, then you want to buy a recorder with phantom-powered XLR preamps onboard.  Something like the Tascam DR-100, DR-44WL, or Zoom H5 would do this just fine.  You do not need any external device, other than maybe an external USB battery to power the recorder.

2. Get a battery box and a set of plug-in-power mics.  I would recommend the AT853 or 953s set up this way sold by Robb (Darktrain) or Ted (tgakidis).  This would mean you're not using your C4s you just picked up, but would be much more low-profile than using full-size mics like the C4s and the full-size XLR cables they will need.

The only way to use your C4s with your current recorders is using an outboard preamp, and that's not going to be very compact.  A decent external preamp is also likely going to cost you as much if not more than the above two options.

No matter what you do, I would highly recommend you use Robb and/or Tedd for your cables.  They will set you up with exactly what you need.
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Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: newbie p48 advice needed!
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2016, 12:38:05 AM »
I have been fluffing the Tascam 70D for awhile now! It has 4 inputs, AND it provides the +48v of phantom to your C4's on all 4 XLR inputs, so no other device is needed, just the 70d! Plus you have the option to add 2 more mics, WITH phantom power if you ever needed to! It runs a long time on 5v USB batteries that are EVERYWHERE, and its pres sound good! IMO It has better sound than the DR-100/DR44WL/Zoom Hx, but as always, YMMV! Its a SOLID deck in my experiences[I have [2] 70d's now and both have been running flawlessly!], as long as you use an APPROVED card from Tascams list below ;) And for under $300, with [4] FOUR XLR Inputs with Phantom Power, its a no brainer IMO! I have numerous samples on archive.org where I am running my Schoeps MK4s straight into the 70d's preamps, just check out my LMA Bookmarks on my signature on all of my posts! I am sure you can find some C4>Tascam 70d samples on archive.org as well!

Tascam's "Approved" Media list for the 70D!
http://tascam.com/content/downloads/products/867/dr-70d_tested_media_list_20151006.pdf
Schoeps MK4's | MK41's ->
Schoeps | NBob 250/05 KCY's ->
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Offline seethreepo

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Re: newbie p48 advice needed!
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2016, 12:55:11 AM »
thanks again to all . While an all in one box might be the way I eventually go the current two decks work fine.  I have a few sets of stealth mics its just open taping I'm new to.

I have a ua5 lined up  which is both  a pre amp and provides phantom  power  so AFAIK I'm good.  The unbalanced / balanced thing confuses me can someone  explain that.  I just need to figure out powering the ua5. 

one of these should  cover it no?
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007URKIGC?keywords=naztech&m=A25E7YN5AX3M0O&qid=1458742568&ref_=sr_1_9&s=merchant-items&sr=1-9




Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: newbie p48 advice needed!
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2016, 02:26:27 AM »
thanks again to all . While an all in one box might be the way I eventually go the current two decks work fine.  I have a few sets of stealth mics its just open taping I'm new to.

I have a ua5 lined up  which is both  a pre amp and provides phantom  power  so AFAIK I'm good.  The unbalanced / balanced thing confuses me can someone  explain that.  I just need to figure out powering the ua5. 

one of these should  cover it no?
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007URKIGC?keywords=naztech&m=A25E7YN5AX3M0O&qid=1458742568&ref_=sr_1_9&s=merchant-items&sr=1-9





Sorry if you already mentioned this or its obvious, but you cant use a stock UA5 for field taping! It HAS to have the "digi" mod so its operational on batteries, and not connected to a PC/Mac! However, if that's what you're getting, then it'll def do the job! The UA5's sound pretty darn good with the right mics! It will def do the job and get you into open taping! Congrats on the new gear, and I have heard some pretty solid C4>UA5 tapes ;D If you like open taping and want to get more into that type of gear, then I would highly consider the Tascam 70D ;D Best $300 I have spent on gear ever haha 8)

And according to your battery question, and to the UA5's specs on this thread, the UA5 needs 9v for power, so YES that Naztech battery would work great and should power your UA5 for a long time ;) The thread below also lists what size adaptaplug you need for the UA5[Size "M' plug, REVERSE POLARITY BTW]!
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=150794.0

Best of luck! Let us know how it goes 8)
Bean
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Offline DSatz

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Re: newbie p48 advice needed!
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2016, 03:20:53 PM »
Sorry, F.O., that explanation of balanced vs. unbalanced just isn't right, although good on you for responding to the OP's remark.

Unbalanced = typical consumer cables and connections. Think of a cable in a hi-fi system that ends in an RCA ("pin") plug, with its "hot" center wire and surrounding shield/ground. The shield carries just as much audio signal current as the center wire does; that's how the circuit is made. It's a cheap but effective approach where the source impedance is low, the cable runs are short, and there's no big concern about interference.

Balanced = typical professional cables and connections, usually with XLR connectors. The cable shield is strictly a shield--a conductive enclosure which itself connects the enclosures of the equipment on both ends of the cable--to keep any interfering signals out. The audio signal current doesn't run in the shield at all; instead, it runs in a pair of wires within the shield. One of those wires is the "hot" and the other might be called the "cold," but neither one is connected to the shield, and technically they must have the same impedance w/r/t signal ground as each other.

Those inner wires are generally twisted together, so that any interfering signals that do make it through the shield will be induced into both wires equally and "in phase". At the receiving end of the cable, the balanced input is sensitive only to the moment-to-moment voltage differences between the two inner conductors (= the intended audio signal); anything that they carry in common (= interference or, if DC, perhaps the residual from phantom powering) cancels out and is ignored. So balanced connections are designed to suppress interference, and that's why professionals use them. (Interesting fact: The twisting of the conductors and the balanced input circuit suppress more interference than shielding does.)

--Not directly a function of balanced vs. unbalanced, but: Another thing that's typical of professional equipment is that it uses higher signal voltages than consumer equipment. (This, too, is part of the war on noise due to interference; if all else fails, drown the noise out with high signal levels.) For example, typical consumer gear might use half a Volt as the nominal level for "line in" or "aux" signals, while studio components typically use +4 dBu, which is a little above 1.2 Volts. The discrepancy can be much greater with microphones, though, where professional condensers might put out 10 to 20 times the voltage that a consumer (dynamic or electret) microphone might produce for the same sound level. Thus the concern for overload, especially when recording loud program material.

--best regards
« Last Edit: August 12, 2016, 08:36:26 AM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: newbie p48 advice needed!
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2016, 06:08:45 AM »
Thanks for a much better explanation than I could ever do, DSatz ;)

I do prefer the locking capabilities, among other things, of the XLR, compared to the mainly mini[1/8"] cables I was using for awhile! I swear I can hear a little more noise when using 1/8" mini cables[like my old M10s/R9s/DR2Ds/70d EXT IN/etc], compared to switching back to using XLRs the last couple of years for my 70ds, but that could all be in my head :P :) Basically, if you can use balanced cables in your rig or system, then do it! Otherwise, unbalanced cables will do the same job, just slightly differently! I still have unbalanced>balanced cables and balanced>unbalanced cables in my systems, so whatever works for that particular setup, then use it ;D
Schoeps MK4's | MK41's ->
Schoeps | NBob 250/05 KCY's ->
Schoeps VMS 02IB | Naiant +60v/Low Noise PFA's ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby | GakCable XLR's ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 | Tascam DR-70D ->
128gb | 64gb SanDisk Extreme Pro SDXC-I

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Offline chinariderstl

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Re: newbie p48 advice needed!
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2016, 03:03:44 PM »
FYI.

# WMOD Edirol UA5 + Battery + Toslink + custom case
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=177857.0
Mics: Audio-Technica AT853's, Avantone CK-40 (Busman mod), Busman BSC1's, DPA 4022's, DPA 4060's
Pres: Apogee Mini-MP, Core Sound Battery Box
Decks: Sony PCM-M10, Tascam DR-2D, Tascam DR-680 (Busman mod)
Power: Initial RB-270, Naztech PB15000
LMA: http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=taper%3A%22Chris+Finn%22

Offline seethreepo

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Re: newbie p48 advice needed!
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2016, 11:41:06 PM »
FYI.

# WMOD Edirol UA5 + Battery + Toslink + custom case
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=177857.0

just when I had decided to get a tascam 70d..  :P  I already sent an email  thanks though !

 

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