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Author Topic: Recording Singing bowls and gongs  (Read 3767 times)

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Offline SacredMetal

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Re: Recording Singing bowls and gongs
« Reply #45 on: October 04, 2016, 10:51:23 AM »
Trying to figure out if my link to some of my setups will work... Testing

https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/14500630_10208895515479066_563655313108939731_o.jpg

Just a comment on the microphone configuration in the above photo.  Not sure if it is showing them "as setup to record" or not, but when using a near-spaced configuration such as that, it's best to angle the mics so that they face outwards (pointing away from each other) rather than inwards (crossing each other in front).  That way the stereophonic level differences and stereophonic time of arrival differences complement each other rather than contradicting each other.  It is common to see coincident or near-spaced stereo setups using "end address" small diaphragm microphones with the mic bodies arranged horizontally and crossing each other because the mic body housing extends from the rear of the microphone capsule, yet the microphone capsules themselves should remain either on their "own" side or coincident with each other (in the same vertical plane) rather than on the "opposite side" peering across the axis of the other mic.

Thanks for comments. will do so next round.

I was trying to do something as if it was a SDC hortz mount. did not work out but since the longest pathway to the mics was no more than 6-8 ft essentially its like listening in mono but with some wild harmonics bouncing around.

So what if I reversed the channels/tracks? I was trying to capture what I hear inside.

Gets really tight in there. I'm thinking two spaced omni's would have been the way to go on this one with a limiter for the hard hits or great swells.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2016, 11:08:16 AM by SacredMetal »
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Offline SacredMetal

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Re: Recording Singing bowls and gongs
« Reply #46 on: October 04, 2016, 10:56:00 AM »
May I suggest a stereo pair above and behind you? Capture what you here by placing the mics in the same relative position to the instrument as your ears.

Use the Microphonic Zoom concept to adjust your stereo image and you should be golden.

It was pretty tight in there with all that gear. think of a sonic version of a MMA cage match. But let me tell you, it was trippy as all hell in there with all that metal vibrating. I am learning a pair of SDC would not be a bad idea. reasonably priced suggestions are always welcomed but must be with really good shock mounts these things get really going!
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Re: Recording Singing bowls and gongs
« Reply #47 on: October 04, 2016, 11:37:22 AM »
May I suggest a stereo pair above and behind you? Capture what you here by placing the mics in the same relative position to the instrument as your ears.

Use the Microphonic Zoom concept to adjust your stereo image and you should be golden.

It was pretty tight in there with all that gear. think of a sonic version of a MMA cage match. But let me tell you, it was trippy as all hell in there with all that metal vibrating. I am learning a pair of SDC would not be a bad idea. reasonably priced suggestions are always welcomed but must be with really good shock mounts these things get really going!
Check out the Beyer Hypercards currently in the YS. Let others add to my comment in this thread, but for hypers, those are great quality SDC mics. The mic clips with them are Good, but you'd need a basket or Rycote type shock mount. I don't own them, but IMO, the Rycote Lyre is what you want for your setups.
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Offline SacredMetal

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Re: Recording Singing bowls and gongs
« Reply #48 on: October 04, 2016, 01:39:11 PM »
Now your getting me in trouble (with my wife)   :facepalm:

I checked out those mic's... your right pretty sweet deal

PM'd him

Update: we're talking

Anyone else wanna chime in on this potential purchase?    Bueller...
« Last Edit: October 04, 2016, 03:55:09 PM by SacredMetal »
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Re: Recording Singing bowls and gongs
« Reply #49 on: October 04, 2016, 10:46:06 PM »
Now your getting me in trouble (with my wife)   :facepalm:

I checked out those mic's... your right pretty sweet deal

PM'd him

Update: we're talking

Anyone else wanna chime in on this potential purchase?    Bueller...
  Best to let at least 1-2 more of us chime in, especially gutbucket. Here are my caveats since I made the initial suggestion about the Beyer Hypers:
Pros- Beyer quality; great value at this price; freq response has that signature Beyer -2dB de-emphasis around 5-7k, with 2dB emphasis around 10k(might be cool for the bowls?). Side-plus: seller is well regarded

http://north-america.beyerdynamic.com/shop/media//datenblaetter/DAT_MC950_EN_A2.pdf                        For the mfr freq response chart

Cons: Frequency response noted above (depends on what you're looking for!), hypercardiod may not be what you're looking for, I noted it mainly because you said SD mics (which I took to mean-as opposed to your LD fatheads). maybe someone else can add to this with their opinion. (hypercard vs something else), larger than DPA or active style mics

Overall- I think two suggestions already made in this thread might be what I'd combine for a realistic sounding and editable multi mic config.:
1] Bruce mentioned the cardiods at your knees facing out. top notch idea IMO (bombdigitty also mentions this as promising). Spend your money on a nice pair of SD cards, maybe price and quality wise won't be as good a deal as the Beyers, but I like his suggestion for starters. You can test the concept with your LD mics in this config just to give you an idea of the pattern's tonality

2] gutbuckets idea of the 3 Omnis, or more easily attained in your situations two omnis possibly clamped to your gong stands. You can go from low to high dollar there. From naiant to Sound Pros to DPA to Schoeps (and higher? lol)
    My bet here for amazing recordings would be a pair of DPA's, which you can often find in good condition used.

I mean, there's concept and then there's products- so concept is:
have 4 mics with 2 cards being placed at your knees facing out over the bowls and two omnis hanging over your head extended from the gong stand to being "centered" horizontally over your head or most forward standing position.
for products, it is good to think things through and ask the questions you have been before spending the money.  8
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Offline SacredMetal

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Re: Recording Singing bowls and gongs
« Reply #50 on: October 04, 2016, 11:35:28 PM »
Interesting points. PZM is a specialized card. Reasoning it as a good choice is extremely low profile, no stand needed which gets in the way of playing. Using my body as an acoustic shield will go a long ways in isolating the bowls while still giving some of the response of what I hear from the drivers seat.

I'm not jumping at anything just yet, took me a long time just to finally get started. Then I went several months just using the H6 alone. Then tested several types of mics from GC ( I was a revolving door for awhile).

But then good deals... do come around know you guyz are not Fathead fans but it was a really sweet deal on a set used maybe twice.

Had I been aware of this forum, well I should have... I would have probably gone the Tascam route like many of you. But at the time I was looking for multi-track as small & easy to operate and compared everything at the store (GC) had new & used for several weeks. I almost bought a Zoom R16 because its a better interface but after comparing the pres in a side by side comparison on a professional DAW, I just couldn't listen to it anymore. The best I felt for the money 7 still being portable was the H6 at the time.

Then I started trying out different mics. The NT-1's were the quietest I listened to & sounded the best in my price range. Again if I knew about this place I probably would have gone a different route.

I'm actually trying to lighten my load rather than increase it. If I could get by with 3-4 mics, I'd be in heaven. But after 2 years of recording this thing I do and over 200G's of material, I am learning on my own what works & does not work. But I reached a point where I need to bounce it off others who at least get the concept. I talk to others Gong & bowl players out there & they look at me like Seriously?!?! They use iPhones & Go Pro's  ??? Sure they shoot video's but thats not serious sound in my book. I still believe the real magic is when you close your eyes & you can feel like you are there again (live band recording) or what I do & completely come out of your body in a trance.

Keep the comments coming!
« Last Edit: October 05, 2016, 12:24:34 AM by SacredMetal »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Recording Singing bowls and gongs
« Reply #51 on: October 05, 2016, 09:33:22 AM »
Trying to figure out if my link to some of my setups will work... Testing

https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/14500630_10208895515479066_563655313108939731_o.jpg

Just a comment on the microphone configuration in the above photo.  Not sure if it is showing them "as setup to record" or not, but when using a near-spaced configuration such as that, it's best to angle the mics so that they face outwards (pointing away from each other) rather than inwards (crossing each other in front).  That way the stereophonic level differences and stereophonic time of arrival differences complement each other rather than contradicting each other.  It is common to see coincident or near-spaced stereo setups using "end address" small diaphragm microphones with the mic bodies arranged horizontally and crossing each other because the mic body housing extends from the rear of the microphone capsule, yet the microphone capsules themselves should remain either on their "own" side or coincident with each other (in the same vertical plane) rather than on the "opposite side" peering across the axis of the other mic.

Thanks for comments. will do so next round.

I was trying to do something as if it was a SDC hortz mount. did not work out but since the longest pathway to the mics was no more than 6-8 ft essentially its like listening in mono but with some wild harmonics bouncing around.

So what if I reversed the channels/tracks? I was trying to capture what I hear inside.

Gets really tight in there. I'm thinking two spaced omni's would have been the way to go on this one with a limiter for the hard hits or great swells.

Swapping/reversing the channels won't fix that issue, the timing/level disparities remain the same and will simply be reversed left/right.  It will sound different however, so just choose whichever channel orientation sounds better to you.  If using that microphone configuration in the future, simply rotate the microphone bodies in the shock mounts until the mics face outwards rather than inwards to correct the problem.  It doesn't require any additional room.  The setup with the mics placed at your knees facing out would be similar, with increased spacing between the two microphones.
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Re: Recording Singing bowls and gongs
« Reply #52 on: October 05, 2016, 10:13:43 AM »
The Beyers are well-respected good quality microphones, but I personally consider them not my first choice for what you are doing.  They excel more in isolating what they are pointed towards, rather than being more open and ambient as called for here, and I find their frequency response not quite what I prefer, with less sensitivity in the upper harmonics region than I'd like.  But that simply reflects my personal preferences. I'm sure great recordings of your bowls and gongs could be made with them using an appropriate technique.

I still recommend playing around with a few different configurations using omnidirectional mics.  You might rent or borrow a couple pairs or buy some inexpensive lavalier omnis  to see if they will do what you want.  Some brands in that category commonly used around here are Naiant, Church, AT853, etc.  Given our earlier discussion on mic setups, and your feedback on the sound you got (or didn't rather) when mic'in from above, I'd like to try four omnis on short stands, arrayed around you in an evenly spaced semi-circle, sort of forming an arc running through the center of the array of bowls, so no one bowl is too far from a mic.  I'd put them on short stands between a foot or two high, not much higher than the bowls.  Basically the same as PZM placement (and as mentioned, miniature lavalier omnis will function as boundary mics like PZMs when placed directly against, or very near, a hard, flat surface like the floor), but just high enough above the bows so that each sees all adjacent bowls and doesn't just highlight the few bowls immediately surrounding it as it would if placed at floor level.  I've done that by taping tiny omnis to welding rod which can be bent into shape, but regular short stands will work well.  With four omnis evenly spaced and relatively close to the bowls, you'll get plenty of signal level from the bowls, which will help keep the noise floor from both the mics (tiny lavs will not be as quiet as your LD Rodes) and from the room manageable, and should better balance the level of the bowls with respect to the gongs.

I'd go ahead and also record using the built-in X/Y mics in front facing towards you as well.  That gives you six channels to work with, in a small kit which is no larger than what you have now using the big Rodes.

Afterwards mix them as you like, and use parallel compression to bring up the lower level detail of the quiet parts until those portions are loud enough to be in proper balance with the loudest parts, yet not so much that the background noises and acoustic noise floor of the room become problematic.  The detail polishing effect of parallel compression can be addictive, so temper your desire for wanting more with a realist take at the same time.
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Offline SacredMetal

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Re: Recording Singing bowls and gongs
« Reply #53 on: October 05, 2016, 11:03:01 AM »
Thanks Gutbucket. I found a picture of someone who was recording bowls using (4) mics with 3 bowls per mic (oh course I can't find it again...ARGGGHHH). Similar to what you are suggesting.

Yes that would fill up the 6 channels just fine. I would need two more short stands (besides the mics).

Technically I could use a rolloff filter most of the time if I don't bring out the BIG bowls. most of my bowls are above 100Hz, but some do go down the 60's  ;D and I'm always looking for bowls that play lower... (well you know, gotta have that bass... LOL)

My only concern is Ugly rooms, where the room is extra noisy (i.e. air conditioning, near a service entrance, or a high traffic area).

Many times some of the locations picked to hold an event (i get hired to play) are after thoughts to what the rest of the event is. So they put the stage wherever & think its gonna sound great. So then I'm stuck with dealing with the issues. Sometimes I don't even hear what is going on elsewhere because I can't hear anything else when I am doing my thing.

That was part of the reason I shied away from omni's but I'mm willing to give it a go again.

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Offline SacredMetal

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Re: Recording Singing bowls and gongs
« Reply #54 on: October 05, 2016, 11:23:38 AM »
The Beyers are well-respected good quality microphones, but I personally consider them not my first choice for what you are doing.  They excel more in isolating what they are pointed towards, rather than being more open and ambient as called for here, and I find their frequency response not quite what I prefer, with less sensitivity in the upper harmonics region than I'd like.  But that simply reflects my personal preferences. I'm sure great recordings of your bowls and gongs could be made with them using an appropriate technique.

Good points to consider. Bowls don't go that high usually up to about 6k on smaller but I hate to lose the very upper harmonics or mess with them. Thats the magic zone when they blend in certain ways. I'll post a sample of some cheap bowls I recorded that actually ended up on my CD. Funny thing is I sold those bowls so I can never play that sequence like that again.

I still recommend playing around with a few different configurations using omnidirectional mics.  You might rent or borrow a couple pairs or buy some inexpensive lavalier omnis  to see if they will do what you want.  Some brands in that category commonly used around here are Naiant, Church, AT853, etc.  Given our earlier discussion on mic setups, and your feedback on the sound you got (or didn't rather) when mic'in from above, I'd like to try four omnis on short stands, arrayed around you in an evenly spaced semi-circle, sort of forming an arc running through the center of the array of bowls, so no one bowl is too far from a mic.  I'd put them on short stands between a foot or two high, not much higher than the bowls. 

I have see one other picture of someone doing that with 3 bolws per mic. I could come up with something similar because I mostly tap my bowls using marimba mallets. we call it "tap & touch technique'

Basically the same as PZM placement (and as mentioned, miniature lavalier omnis will function as boundary mics like PZMs when placed directly against, or very near, a hard, flat surface like the floor), but just high enough above the bows so that each sees all adjacent bowls and doesn't just highlight the few bowls immediately surrounding it as it would if placed at floor level.  I've done that by taping tiny omnis to welding rod which can be bent into shape, but regular short stands will work well.  With four omnis evenly spaced and relatively close to the bowls, you'll get plenty of signal level from the bowls, which will help keep the noise floor from both the mics (tiny lavs will not be as quiet as your LD Rodes) and from the room manageable, and should better balance the level of the bowls with respect to the gongs.

Now thats a great idea! Small, easy to transport & low key. The bases of teh "stands would be small too so they could be placed just about anywhere.

I'd go ahead and also record using the built-in X/Y mics in front facing towards you as well.  That gives you six channels to work with, in a small kit which is no larger than what you have now using the big Rodes.

They are not the same as what you guyz use around here but the Rode's are not bad mikes. These are the newer ones (Black case) and are actually quieter than the old style & anniversary edition. They also are my 1st set of real mics I have owned in over 20 plus years. I did a lot of reading & testing before I settled on these. Budget & credit (GC card) was another factor no interets paymenst does help you but some gear when you really need it.

Afterwards mix them as you like, and use parallel compression to bring up the lower level detail of the quiet parts until those portions are loud enough to be in proper balance with the loudest parts, yet not so much that the background noises and acoustic noise floor of the room become problematic.  The detail polishing effect of parallel compression can be addictive, so temper your desire for wanting more with a realist take at the same time.

This is where my last batch of problems arised. handing off final production to someone who didn't get it but said they did. It was horrible!!!



Last but not least opinions on the fatheads? I still have time to send them back. There not bad, great deal but i don't studio record that much. Kinda curious on what they would sound like with my flutes. I may be able to get an extension on the return, I'm one of their best customers & they already know how picky I am.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Recording Singing bowls and gongs
« Reply #55 on: October 05, 2016, 12:25:03 PM »
I'm not familiar with Fatheads, other than knowing they exist, so not much help on that account.

I'd not use any roll off while recording. That's usually best done afterwards.  I also hesitate to do so afterwards unless absolutely necessary.  It's usually just too kludgy to just chop off everything below a certain frequency.  Even if the material being recorded doesn't produce low frequencies, chopping them off abruptly usually reduces the sense of ambient space and envelopment which is an important element here.  I prefer to use shelf and peak filters to EQ bottom end fixes as necessary, minimizing HVAC noise or whatever as much as I can get away with without totally emasculating the recording.  It's a balancing act and using finer-grained tools helps get the most out of it.

A big help with the proposed "four spaced omnis amongst the bowls down low" arrangement will be the proximity of the omnis to the bowls and the increase in pickup level of them from them due to that.  Distributing the omnis along the centerline of the arrangement of bowls keeps them in the middle of the "soundcloud" of higher proximate level immediately surrounding the bowls.  To the extent that achieves higher signal levels due to proximity of the bowls, it will also reduce the influence of background HVAC noise and rumble, room sound, and other background noises.   Because low frequency HVAC rumble is diffuse in the room, you'll get it on the recording regardless of microphone pattern and no matter how you point the mics and set them up.  The things which will reduce it are either reducing the low frequency response of everything (via a high-pass filter or EQ afterwards, or via a mic's inherent frequency response, which is partly linked to its pickup pattern), and/or increasing the level of the sounds you do want.  Easiest way to achieve increased levels of what you want is via proximity to the source(s).
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Re: Recording Singing bowls and gongs
« Reply #56 on: October 05, 2016, 01:59:26 PM »
Just to chime in: I like the 4 omnis around the bowls idea. Should pick up the gongs and the chanting nicely as well. I hope I didn't place you or the seller of the Beyers in an odd position as I was technically only responding to your "I'd like to try SD" mention. I'd go with gutbuckets opinion combined with mine on those Beyers. You can still try these techniques with what you have and tailor them later if/when you buy some omnis.
I don't think I've mentioned this, but I am drawn to your project from having studied Ayurvedic meditation in the 1990's as well as formerly being an FOH guy. I used to use Michael Hedges 'Taproot' or 'Live on the Double Planet' as my yoga/meditation music. So I am psyched you found TS and have then found gutbucket as he is a font of incredibly practical approaches to recording live music.   
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Offline SacredMetal

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Re: Recording Singing bowls and gongs
« Reply #57 on: October 05, 2016, 03:24:15 PM »
Just to chime in: I like the 4 omnis around the bowls idea. Should pick up the gongs and the chanting nicely as well. I hope I didn't place you or the seller of the Beyers in an odd position as I was technically only responding to your "I'd like to try SD" mention. I'd go with gutbuckets opinion combined with mine on those Beyers. You can still try these techniques with what you have and tailor them later if/when you buy some omnis.
I don't think I've mentioned this, but I am drawn to your project from having studied Ayurvedic meditation in the 1990's as well as formerly being an FOH guy. I used to use Michael Hedges 'Taproot' or 'Live on the Double Planet' as my yoga/meditation music. So I am psyched you found TS and have then found gutbucket as he is a font of incredibly practical approaches to recording live music.

Its all good on my side. I have to lighten my load 1st anyway to cover "upgrade" costs so I don't dip into business expenses too much. Sure technically all my gear is a business expense but I still have to manage available cash.

I'm definitely selling Rode NTK, I have only used it a few times.

Fatheads I want to try out 1 last time before I give them back or up. Their nice but still limited for what I do. Looking at really small profile mics now for some of the oddball ideas I have seen in the oddball thread.

PZM is still in running but oddball is nosing ahead a bit if I do a welding rod mount & stand setup. I think that would get the most coverage and still be out of the way. I could come up with a min snake for the recorder so I can get the recorder closer to me & not have wires all over the place.

One thing about my setup, it has to look visually appealing when I start also. If you noticed sometimes I have crystal grids & antique artifacts in front. My attendees are very spiritual, this is my church when I start up. BTW, I am also an ordained minister but don't really do sermons. Most of the events take place on auspicious "holidays", full moon's, harvest moon's, equinox's, etc. Getting the gear to a lower profile would be a visual improvement.

I have an event coming up this weekend, I am not scheduled as a player but I know if I show up I'll be expected to be part of it. I may bring a "bag-of-bowls" with me & my knapsack of recording gear & 1 short stand. Then I come just Zoom H6 & x/y or m/s capsule the event. Or add the fatheads & give them one more chance... Things to ponder.
Zoom X/Y, Zoom M/S, Rode NT-1's, Rode NTK, Cascade Fathead
Zoom H6
Mogami Silver cables
5V USB 10,400mAh Backup battery
(it may not be the greatest but its a good start...)

 

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