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Author Topic: 4-channel mic config suggestions?  (Read 2202 times)

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: 4-channel mic config suggestions?
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2017, 04:35:18 PM »
^ That would cover things quite well and provide lots of options to play around with.   If you decide to exchange the Rodes yet have a chance to record a few things before you must return them, I'd jump on the opportunity.  Besides simply giving you an idea of what that mic is capable of, it will provide something of a base-line against which you can compare the ck63 as used in the same mic config and maybe even the same room.

Again just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that shotguns cannot work well, but they are always going to be something of a special application microphone.  Omnis, cards and hypers are much more general purpose patterns which can be used in many more ways, both as straight pairs or in various combinations, and also generally sound better.  I think going that route represents both a better return on your microphone investment and a stronger potential for making better quality recordings in most situations.
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Offline CorFit Chris

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Re: 4-channel mic config suggestions?
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2017, 05:57:38 PM »

Again just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that shotguns cannot work well, but they are always going to be something of a special application microphone.  Omnis, cards and hypers are much more general purpose patterns which can be used in many more ways, both as straight pairs or in various combinations, and also generally sound better.  I think going that route represents both a better return on your microphone investment and a stronger potential for making better quality recordings in most situations.

Yep.  I've wanted the DPA 4061 for awhile.  The ck63's will do what the shotguns would and more.  Plus, I want to downsize to 2 active setups.  I guess it's a no brained really.  And I have recorded a few shows with the Rodes.  They help with vocals, but likely not any more than the ck63's would.  Gracias
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Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: 4-channel mic config suggestions?
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2017, 02:55:11 PM »
I'm all for trying new things to find what you prefer the best! That said, I listened to bunches of your festie stuff from 2016 and I personally loved the SPC4/AKG mix. The SPC4 omnis gave a really nice lowend/bass response, but with that classic AKG highend sizzle! But I do agree with basically what everyone else said. Shotguns never really had a great "live" feel to me either, since they were usually sooo lacking in the lowend and too much high end fatigue IMO, unless they're mixed with some cards/omnis!

I think you'd have way more options getting rid of the shotguns and getting some hypers/ck63's! Those were total workhorses when I had my old 480 bodies! Basically, once I bought some ck63 hypers, my ck61's and ck62's BARELY saw any live music lol ;D Then like you just said, you'd have a pair of 4061 DPA Omnis, a pair of ck61 cards and ck63 hypers! IMO, that will cover you for ANY situation! I've run omnis/subcards/cards/hypers/supercards, and now I ONLY own mk4 cards and mk41 supercards for a reason! Because they BOTH pull VERY consistent results. Period. Yeah I'd like an mk8[fig8] or two, but it's definitely not NEEDED! Omnis/Cards/Hypers, check! They'll get the job done. ALWAYS ;)
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Offline CorFit Chris

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Re: 4-channel mic config suggestions?
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2017, 09:37:23 AM »
I'm all for trying new things to find what you prefer the best! That said, I listened to bunches of your festie stuff from 2016 and I personally loved the SPC4/AKG mix. The SPC4 omnis gave a really nice lowend/bass response, but with that classic AKG highend sizzle! But I do agree with basically what everyone else said. Shotguns never really had a great "live" feel to me either, since they were usually sooo lacking in the lowend and too much high end fatigue IMO, unless they're mixed with some cards/omnis!

I think you'd have way more options getting rid of the shotguns and getting some hypers/ck63's! Those were total workhorses when I had my old 480 bodies! Basically, once I bought some ck63 hypers, my ck61's and ck62's BARELY saw any live music lol ;D Then like you just said, you'd have a pair of 4061 DPA Omnis, a pair of ck61 cards and ck63 hypers! IMO, that will cover you for ANY situation! I've run omnis/subcards/cards/hypers/supercards, and now I ONLY own mk4 cards and mk41 supercards for a reason! Because they BOTH pull VERY consistent results. Period. Yeah I'd like an mk8[fig8] or two, but it's definitely not NEEDED! Omnis/Cards/Hypers, check! They'll get the job done. ALWAYS ;)

Thanks Bean.  This past festival season was a roller coaster ride with trying to figure it out, malfunctioning caps, rain, etc.  I don't know if I ran the same configuration twice.  But, I know how I want it done in the future. 

The SPC4's are near and dear to me as they were my first set of real mics (3rd hand), and have been in the trenches without any sort of issue for 2 years.  They have definitely been my most consistent recording tool thus far.  They came to me with the omni and card caps.  I was surprised at how well they sounded with the omni's, but want something smaller and cleaner for splitting out wide.  For some reason I am stuck on the DPA 4061's for that purpose.  I just want to get my 3 basic patterns covered so I can stop obsessing online.  I think the DPA's and AKG's will get me through the next few years without "Jonesing" for another upgrade. 

On a side note, thanks for all your contributions on this site and the LMA.  You provide a lot of great input, perspective, and music!  Cheers
« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 09:59:02 AM by CorFit Chris »
LMA: https://archive.org/details/@corfit
SoundCloud: https://soundcloud.com/orithris
Mics: AKG 460 (ck61 & ck63) | Studio Projects C4 (cards & omni's) | CA-14 cards | SP-SPSM-9
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Offline Life In Rewind

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Re: 4-channel mic config suggestions?
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2017, 11:27:13 PM »
It does seems as if the rotational orientation of the interference tube slots should matter, but it doesn't.  The frequency range affected by the interference tube effect lies between two thresholds- the length of the tube determines the low frequency limit and the width of the tube determines the high frequency limit.  Between those limits the wavelength is long enough to "wrap around" the tube without "seeing it". Below that frequency range the capsule acts as a standard supercardioid without an interference tube.  Above that frequency range, the tube has a shadowing effect on the capsules's standard supercardioid pattern, but the slots no longer play a role in that.

I've wondered about that as well - it looks like there is all kinds of stuff happening on shotguns - but its all gas! - just a tube...but - Gut...some of these have slot that runs the length of the tube - shouldn't THAT rotation/symmetry matter!?

EDIT - did not read your reply properly - you do mention the slots...how can they NOT matter!?
« Last Edit: February 08, 2017, 11:28:48 PM by Life In Rewind »
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Offline boa

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Re: 4-channel mic config suggestions?
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2017, 11:55:27 PM »
Highly recommend the split 4061's with hypers in between. You can view a few DIY mounts I have used for the 4061's when using them on a stand: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=40705.0
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: 4-channel mic config suggestions?
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2017, 10:29:25 AM »
It does seems as if the rotational orientation of the interference tube slots should matter, but it doesn't.  The frequency range affected by the interference tube effect lies between two thresholds- the length of the tube determines the low frequency limit and the width of the tube determines the high frequency limit.  Between those limits the wavelength is long enough to "wrap around" the tube without "seeing it". Below that frequency range the capsule acts as a standard supercardioid without an interference tube.  Above that frequency range, the tube has a shadowing effect on the capsules's standard supercardioid pattern, but the slots no longer play a role in that.

I've wondered about that as well - it looks like there is all kinds of stuff happening on shotguns - but its all gas! - just a tube...but - Gut...some of these have slot that runs the length of the tube - shouldn't THAT rotation/symmetry matter!?

EDIT - did not read your reply properly - you do mention the slots...how can they NOT matter!?

The slots matter of course, or holes, or other opening shapes. It's not the shape of the openings so much as the geometry of the openings with respect to the capsule that's producing the interference effect. The primary aspect of the design is introducing different path lengths for sounds arriving from angles other than directly on-axis as it passes through those openings to the capsule diaphragm. The phase differences between those different path lengths interact with each other as they are summed at the capsule in a destructively interfering way, effectively lowering the signal level for off-axis sounds within the effective bandwidth of the tube in a rather crude but useful way, while on-axis sound arrives without path length differences and without the same destructive interference occurring at the diaphragm.

Here's a couple links which popped up in a quick search of interference tube principle explaining a bit further, mostly in non-technical terms.  The Randy Coppinger site mentions an original design by Harry Olson (The RCA engineer who IMO should get as much credit as Alan Blumlein for his contributions to audio, but isn't as well known) from which modern interference tube microphones were developed a decade or so later.  His design used a number of tubes of differing lengths in front of the capsule.  The later extension and simplification was to substitute a single tube with multiple slots, where each slot effectively forms a different tube length.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sound-advice/q-how-do-shotgun-mics-work
https://randycoppinger.com/2012/04/05/how-a-shotgun-mic-works/
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Offline waltmon

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Re: 4-channel mic config suggestions?
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2017, 04:26:50 PM »
I used to run hypers pretty much exclusively ORTF 110, but to my ear the music sounded ok, but the vocals were distant...not sure if distant is the word. I switched to 90 DIN and immediately heard a difference. I've been using the 12" followingbob bar with 480 ck63 90 degree din on top and a cardioid pair (currently borrowed KM140s) also din below.   My Grand Prairie Phish pulls from October were really strong as was this configuration also ran for the MSG NYE run...
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