Become a Site Supporter and Never see Ads again!

Author Topic: Preamp pairing with AKG 461's and 463's  (Read 7105 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline CorFit Chris

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 340
  • Gender: Male
    • InsideOut Recording & Promotions
Re: Preamp pairing with AKG 461's and 463's
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2017, 12:50:08 PM »
I definitely hear a stronger, cleaner sound when a preamp is present.  Maybe the coloration isn't that important if I can learn how to better use post processing software. 

Interestingly, I am seeing used Sound Devices 302 is similar in price to the MixPre-D and USBpre 2.  Also, a used SD Mixpre is around $500.  Pros or cons to the SD 302 or Mixpre?
LMA: https://archive.org/details/@corfit
SoundCloud: https://soundcloud.com/orithris
Mics: AKG 460 (ck61 & ck63) | Studio Projects C4 (cards & omni's) | CA-14 cards | SP-SPSM-9
Recorders: Tascam DR-70d  |  Tascam DR-60d  |  Tascam DR-2D
Preamp: CA Ugly
Camera: GoPro Hero 4 Silver

Offline Jhurlbs81

  • Trade Count: (18)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2393
  • Gender: Male
  • Reinvented, redefined, rearranged but not refined
    • My LMA collection
Re: Preamp pairing with AKG 461's and 463's
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2017, 02:27:43 PM »
If you really like the V3 sound but don't want to pay 700-800, look for a V2 as they can be had for $500.  The AD in your 680 is probably better than the one in the V3 anyway, IMO.

Offline rocksuitcase

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3980
  • Gender: Male
    • RockSuitcase: stage photography
Re: Preamp pairing with AKG 461's and 463's
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2017, 02:38:41 PM »
If you really like the V3 sound but don't want to pay 700-800, look for a V2 as they can be had for $500.  The AD in your 680 is probably better than the one in the V3 anyway, IMO.
kindms and I have been having this convo. I've been coveting the V2's which come up for sale infrequently; but he accurately contends the reason to have the V3 is for the digi out.
If you don't need/desire digi out, the electronics in the V3 are similar although I do think Grace used a different op amp between the two.
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI

Offline darby

  • Trade Count: (65)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1228
  • Support artists and venues that allow recording
Re: Preamp pairing with AKG 461's and 463's
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2017, 02:53:42 PM »
If you really like the V3 sound but don't want to pay 700-800, look for a V2 as they can be had for $500.  The AD in your 680 is probably better than the one in the V3 anyway, IMO.
kindms and I have been having this convo. I've been coveting the V2's which come up for sale infrequently; but he accurately contends the reason to have the V3 is for the digi out.
If you don't need/desire digi out, the electronics in the V3 are similar although I do think Grace used a different op amp between the two.

I believe Mike at one time said they were "identical"
the main benefit to the V3 over the V2 is the metering besides the digital out
I did like having an RCA out on the V2 though

the USBPre 2 in my opinion sounded very similar to the Lunatecs (maybe a touch warmer) with many different outputs

EDIT:
from the archives
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=90060.0
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 08:55:34 PM by darby »

Offline ~Jon Stoppable

  • Trade Count: (47)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1250
  • Gender: Male
    • Naiant Studio
Re: Preamp pairing with AKG 461's and 463's
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2017, 03:34:29 PM »
If you really like the V3 sound but don't want to pay 700-800, look for a V2 as they can be had for $500.  The AD in your 680 is probably better than the one in the V3 anyway, IMO.

I would doubt that.  DR680mkII spec for ADA dynamic range is 100dB; V3 (AD only) is 110dB.  It's likely that Tascam used a codec (ADC + DAC), usually the DAC spec on those is slightly better than the ADC, so I'd guess the ADC only is no better than 103dBA.  This is ignoring factors such as clock jitter, but dynamic range is usually a pretty good proxy for overall quality of conversion.

Offline MakersMarc

  • Trade Count: (7)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1612
  • Gender: Male
  • Two things I hate havin to cook and tryin' to date
Re: Preamp pairing with AKG 461's and 463's
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2017, 04:16:18 PM »
If you really like the V3 sound but don't want to pay 700-800, look for a V2 as they can be had for $500.  The AD in your 680 is probably better than the one in the V3 anyway, IMO.

I would doubt that.  DR680mkII spec for ADA dynamic range is 100dB; V3 (AD only) is 110dB.  It's likely that Tascam used a codec (ADC + DAC), usually the DAC spec on those is slightly better than the ADC, so I'd guess the ADC only is no better than 103dBA.  This is ignoring factors such as clock jitter, but dynamic range is usually a pretty good proxy for overall quality of conversion.

Or you can trust your ears and not specs.
Mk4v/41v>Nbob kcy x2>nbox platinum/Naiant PFA/Naiant IPA>Oade warm mod Marantz 661 x2/Sony pcm m10x3

Offline ~Jon Stoppable

  • Trade Count: (47)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1250
  • Gender: Male
    • Naiant Studio
Re: Preamp pairing with AKG 461's and 463's
« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2017, 07:39:13 PM »
Or you can trust your ears and not specs.

Or you can know something about circuit design and how the parts in question behave, and combine that with familiarity of the design philosophy of Grace and Tascam (nothing against them, I have had several of their bits over the years).

And quite honestly I have seen or heard so few even somewhat well controlled listening tests over the years that I would rely much more heavily on (reputable) specifications than any given person's ears.  These two bits of kit would be pretty easy to compare just in terms of ADC, because you can run the V3 both analog and digital into the 680.  But if you do so, please use a source with a very wide dynamic range; maybe a symphony orchestra.

I would just do a bench test though.  So I would be willing to wager a Jackson that the Grace will measure 7-10dB better dynamic range and probably less jitter as well.  If you prefer less dynamic range or more jitter, that is easy to do in post-processing if you know how.

And if you prefer very little dynamic range and lots of jitter, just record directly to cassette!

But if it were me, I'd probably record direct to the Tascam for convenience, and because its conversion is probably good enough--even though it's barely better than 17 bit, that is more than most sources can manage.

Offline MakersMarc

  • Trade Count: (7)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1612
  • Gender: Male
  • Two things I hate havin to cook and tryin' to date
Re: Preamp pairing with AKG 461's and 463's
« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2017, 08:28:10 PM »
I'm sure the v3 has killer specs, far more impressive than say an Oade M148. I owned it for four shows I think, I wanted to toss it out the window on the way home from the last one,just horrible, thin, brittle sounding, awful. In my opinion you cannot choose gear for what we do on specs. If you could, the Sonic AD2k+  would be a revered piece of gear in the taping community.
Mk4v/41v>Nbob kcy x2>nbox platinum/Naiant PFA/Naiant IPA>Oade warm mod Marantz 661 x2/Sony pcm m10x3

Offline ~Jon Stoppable

  • Trade Count: (47)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1250
  • Gender: Male
    • Naiant Studio
Re: Preamp pairing with AKG 461's and 463's
« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2017, 08:51:41 PM »
Is that distortion or noise or is it accuracy?  That's trivial to discern on a bench test.  And if it so happens that you do not favor accuracy, that's fine, but that is not at issue.  The statement was that the ADC in a 680 is "probably better than" a V3.  Objectively, I highly doubt that is so, because Tascam and Grace agree that it is not.

Offline Walstib62

  • Trade Count: (26)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2304
  • Gender: Male
Re: Preamp pairing with AKG 461's and 463's
« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2017, 12:33:55 AM »
Yes, but what do you hear???
Thanks Ben!!!

Offline DATBRAD

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2113
  • Gender: Male
Re: Preamp pairing with AKG 461's and 463's
« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2017, 07:13:36 AM »
Having run 460s arguably as long or longer than any active member on this forum, I'll add my .02 about preamps used with them. Warm preamps tend to bring out the best qualities in these mics "to my ears" over those more transparent sounding. Now, my ears are by no means a benchmark for objective comparisons, I'm just stating how things sound to me. I felt that way in 1994 when I first started using 460s, and after experiments with other front ends over the years since has only reinforced the opinion I initially developed of these mics. So, to the OP, seek ways to try different preamps, and running directly into recorders as well. Let your own preference decide. And don't forget that music recording in particular has an aspect unique to audio recording in general. Timbre is that quality of human brain sound processing that allows some of us with the ability to easily tell the difference between instruments without seeing them. By mathematical specs alone, a note played by a trumpet at the same amplitude and pitch as a French horn should sound identical. Same for a note played by a violin versus a cello. Using the measurement tools that report specs, there would be no difference between any two instruments of the same type (strings/strings or woodwinds/woodwinds) playing the same note at the same pitch and amplitude. It's easy to dismiss the opinions of someone's ears, which explains why contestants in singing reality shows that cannot hear that they are singing off key are so pissed when they are told the truth.
AKG C460B w/CK61/CK63 or Beyerdynamic M201TG>Luminous Monarch XLRs>SD MP-1(x2)>Luminous Monarch XLRs>PMD661(Oade WMOD)

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (13)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 11422
  • Gender: Male
Re: Preamp pairing with AKG 461's and 463's
« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2017, 09:37:41 AM »
Having run 460s arguably as long or longer than any active member on this forum, I'll add my .02 about preamps used with them. Warm preamps tend to bring out the best qualities in these mics "to my ears" over those more transparent sounding. Now, my ears are by no means a benchmark for objective comparisons, I'm just stating how things sound to me. I felt that way in 1994 when I first started using 460s, and after experiments with other front ends over the years since has only reinforced the opinion I initially developed of these mics. So, to the OP, seek ways to try different preamps, and running directly into recorders as well. Let your own preference decide.[snip]

I started off reading the post above thinking this was a totally reasonable conclusion of the thread.. that was until I got to the part below. 

Quote
By mathematical specs alone, a note played by a trumpet at the same amplitude and pitch as a French horn should sound identical. Same for a note played by a violin versus a cello. Using the measurement tools that report specs, there would be no difference between any two instruments of the same type (strings/strings or woodwinds/woodwinds) playing the same note at the same pitch and amplitude. It's easy to dismiss the opinions of someone's ears, which explains why contestants in singing reality shows that cannot hear that they are singing off key are so pissed when they are told the truth.

No offence, but this totally incorrect and completely off base.
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations > virtual teleportation time-machine experience

Offline MakersMarc

  • Trade Count: (7)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1612
  • Gender: Male
  • Two things I hate havin to cook and tryin' to date
Re: Preamp pairing with AKG 461's and 463's
« Reply #27 on: January 25, 2017, 11:30:16 AM »
Is that distortion or noise or is it accuracy?  That's trivial to discern on a bench test.  And if it so happens that you do not favor accuracy, that's fine, but that is not at issue.  The statement was that the ADC in a 680 is "probably better than" a V3.  Objectively, I highly doubt that is so, because Tascam and Grace agree that it is not.


We can agree to disagree on what constitutes accuracy; to me it's a euphonically pleasing recording that sounds very close to what it sounded like live. my 4011>v2>2k or v3 recordings are just about unlistenable....brittle, strident, thin, all recorded with proper technique up front. Put 4022s paired with an aeta psp2 or m148 and an apogee ad1000 or sbm1 in the same location and venue, everything changes. For me. Another set of ears might love the former combo, but it's not due to the specs alone. The best advice I ever received was to forget specs and let my ears decide. Doug Oade.  :headphones:
Mk4v/41v>Nbob kcy x2>nbox platinum/Naiant PFA/Naiant IPA>Oade warm mod Marantz 661 x2/Sony pcm m10x3

Offline nolamule

  • Trade Count: (20)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 531
  • where's my mule?
Re: Preamp pairing with AKG 461's and 463's
« Reply #28 on: January 25, 2017, 11:54:47 AM »
The best advice I ever received was to forget specs and let my ears decide. Doug Oade.  :headphones:

Bingo!  :cheers:

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (13)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 11422
  • Gender: Male
Re: Preamp pairing with AKG 461's and 463's
« Reply #29 on: January 25, 2017, 01:19:17 PM »
We're in big trouble if we can't agree on a definition of accuracy.

It's true that the most appropriate goal for live music reproduction is the creation of an euphonically pleasing recording, in part because that is a goal which is actually achievable.  An truly accurate reproduction of the live event is simply and demonstrably not possible.  We know that because we can define such accuracy in specific, objective terms (upon which one quickly realizes that achieving it outright is impossible by all practical measures), whereas we cannot fully and objectively define what makes for a euphonically pleasing, emotionally convening audio playback experience.  Instead we "know it when we hear it" and become willing participants in deceiving ourselves that it sounds "just like it did live", when by truly objective measures of accuracy it both does not and cannot.  Yet in the end that short coming is inconsequential.  All that maters is that the listener enjoy the result to the fullest extent possible, that they can easily, willingly, and unconsciously suspend disbelief so as to experience playback as if the live experience is actually being recreated in a way that feels accurate to them in a totally convincing way.

How to get to that appropriate subjective goal is the more useful and pragmatic question.  There is more than one road to Rome.  Some do it by developing a method and signal chain which produces a recording which maximized those qualities without further manipulation, or with minimal further manipulation.  If one part of the signal chain is less than accurate in one way, introducing something else in the chain which is less than accurate but in an inverse way to the other part does reduce the inaccuracy.  In this case, a wrong + an inverse wrong = something closer to right.  Some do it by striving for increased accuracy over euphony throughout the capture phase to the extent that such is practically achievable, with the intent of making the most effective appropriate euphonious manipulations afterwards. 

Neither method is correct nor incorrect.  That mastering engineers are valued for things other than simply converting and packaging content for release (and that great ones are well compensated for their ability to make subjective euphonious manipulations) is acknowledgement of such.  Those guys both know and trust objective specifications, and also know and trust their subjective intuitions.  They know how to handle both and are more aware of the appropriate intersection of those realms than most.

This is similar to alternate uses of the word truth.  Sometimes that world is used to refer to factual truth (objective "agreed upon" truths), sometimes emotional/poetic truths ("it's true to me").  Conveying meaning accurately depends on agreement on the definition of the terms used, by both the speaker and audience.  Funny ha ha or funny weird?

What we have here is a failure to communicate.  What we have here is, on the face of things, an argument about method (which road to Rome), with and a deeper disconnect concerning agreement of which Rome we're referring to - for some it might be one of the 21 different communities named Rome in the USA, for others its the big one in Italy.
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations > virtual teleportation time-machine experience

 

RSS | Mobile
Page created in 0.25 seconds with 37 queries.
© 2002-2017 Taperssection.com
Powered by SMF
Website Design by Foxtrot Media, Inc., a Baltimore Website Company