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Offline seekup40

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Setting Bass Roll Off
« on: June 02, 2003, 09:25:12 PM »
What would be a good setting to set bass roll off at if I'd be taping DMB from around 10-15 rows on the stack running a at853's > battery box > md rig?

Thanks

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Re:Setting Bass Roll Off
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2003, 10:01:26 PM »
i wouldnt personally run one (a bass/rolloff) that close.......i have NEVER used my pad on my 480's.......you can take bass out, afterwards, ya cant put it back in....... 8)

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Offline danmorgan

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Re:Setting Bass Roll Off
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2003, 10:20:51 AM »
i wouldnt personally run one (a bass/rolloff) that close.......i have NEVER used my pad on my 480's.......you can take bass out, afterwards, ya cant put it back in....... 8)

bean

I agree.  You will lose a lot of the integrity of the recording...post recording edits are the way to go if it is too bassy.  DMB won't have the thunder of, say, WSP or Gov't Mule anywhoo.

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Re:Setting Bass Roll Off
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2003, 12:05:06 PM »
you have to be careful here.  I ran front row on the side section, about 6 feet from the stacks at about 17 ft with a set of 853's a while back, bass roll off at 69 hz, and got massive distorted base.  Now, admittedly, this show (Nissan Pavilion) was the loudest DMB show I had been to...ever, but it happened.  Best suggestion, tape the opening act, listen to it at intermission and make a judgement call.  The problem is that the 853's dont handle nearly the levels that alot of the other mics do, so the rolloff is important.

Nick

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Re:Setting Bass Roll Off
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2003, 03:48:22 PM »
i wouldnt personally run one (a bass/rolloff) that close.......i have NEVER used my pad on my 480's.......you can take bass out, afterwards, ya cant put it back in....... 8)

bean

I agree.  You will lose a lot of the integrity of the recording...post recording edits are the way to go if it is too bassy.  DMB won't have the thunder of, say, WSP or Gov't Mule anywhoo.

they have NO thunder to begin with.... ;)

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Offline nickgregory

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Re:Setting Bass Roll Off
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2003, 03:58:47 PM »
i wouldnt personally run one (a bass/rolloff) that close.......i have NEVER used my pad on my 480's.......you can take bass out, afterwards, ya cant put it back in....... 8)

bean

I agree.  You will lose a lot of the integrity of the recording...post recording edits are the way to go if it is too bassy.  DMB won't have the thunder of, say, WSP or Gov't Mule anywhoo.

they have NO thunder to begin with.... ;)

bean

trust me, the last thing we want to do on this board is start knocking bands...dont get me started on the endless noise that <insert band name here> calls music, but since they have a taping policy, people love em

Nick

Offline Marc Nutter

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Re:Setting Bass Roll Off
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2003, 04:37:07 PM »
Hi SeekUp40 and All,

Setting a high-pass filter (ie. bass roll-off) has always been a point of discrepancy for many people.

My personal sentiment is that I would rather use an HPF when recording then in post.  Since low-end is often exaggerated for the benefit of our ears which do not perceive low-frequency as well as high frequency, recordings can become excessively bassy.  Further, since the low frequency information contains a lot of energy that will drive our levels on our recorders, it will force us to set our overall levels lower than desirable, especially if we plan on taking out the bottom-end anyway.  This is particularly valuable when recording at 16-bit since we are giving up 1-2 bits to the bottom-end that we will later through away either in editing or with an EQ.  If we use an HPF in the recording process, we get better resolution for the mids and highs since we can then set our levels to peak in the –2dBfs range for the higher frequency content as opposed to doing so for the low-end (which we may not want later anyway and may be 6-12dB hotter than the mid through high-end).

I am totally sympathetic to the idea of trying to most accurately represent what we hear, but a HPF is one of the tools that many of us have on our pre-amps.  Utilizing our tools to the fullest potential gives us the best opportunity to achieve the results we are after.  It really depends if you are trying to get an exact representation of how your mics “heard” the show, how you heard the show, or what will be the most listenable on your playback system and/or the playback system(s) of others.

The obvious disclaimers apply—your ears will the best judge and this will vary with equipment and source material.

Generally, if I’m running Schoeps, AKG 480’s, or a large diaphragm mic, especially with a bass heavy band, like Panic or Mule, I will use a gentle roll-off 6dB at 50Hz or 75Hz.  For mics like DPA, Neumann, MBHO or Earthworks, I won’t typically use a HPF unless the band/venue is really bassy or boomy. In most of these cases, I would be running a V2/V3.

If you are running with the mics close to one column of P.A. in closer to it than you are to the subs, which are usually stacked on the stage, you may not find it necessary to run the HPF.

Another interesting anomaly can be the low frequency coupling that occurs in the middle.  There is roughly a 6dB boost of low frequency (under 100Hz) that you will notice at dead center.   Go to middle, listen, step 3-4 feet to either side.  Notice the difference.  Go back to the middle.  A typical filter of 6dB/octave at 75Hz serves quite well in neutralizing the build up.  You may actualy find the results more listenable than just capturing exactly what was there.

I hope this is helpful.

Happy Recording,

Marc

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Re:Setting Bass Roll Off
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2003, 04:38:05 PM »
Hey Nick, that's why I listen to Meshuggah! ;) 'cept I don't know about their tpaing policy! HAHAHA
Armen

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Re:Setting Bass Roll Off
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2003, 04:40:37 PM »
Yeah seekup40, what are your options? What filter(s) do you have at your disposal?

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Re:Setting Bass Roll Off
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2003, 05:04:00 PM »
Great post Marc.  I agree 100%.  HPF can be a great tool if used correctly.  I used a -6db/octave @ 75Hz HPF on the V2 most of the time with Neumann tlm170s and km140s.  I don't use the HPF with the ADK A51TL>V3 - the TL's have a natural rolloff, so adding a HPF makes them sound thin and takes that low end punch out of the recording.

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Offline seekup40

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Re:Setting Bass Roll Off
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2003, 06:48:23 PM »
The rolloff options i have are:

16hz
69hz
95hz
107hz
160hz
195hz
888hz

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Re:Setting Bass Roll Off
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2003, 06:51:57 PM »
That's the good ol' Sound Pro box, eh? At Dave Matthews from where you described and your 853s, I'd say you can't lose with the 69 Hz setting.
Armen

Offline seekup40

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Re:Setting Bass Roll Off
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2003, 06:53:24 PM »
And I know this is not a very good chance since nobody knows me really, but would anyone be kind enough to loan me a dat for a few shows?  :)

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Re:Setting Bass Roll Off
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2003, 06:54:45 PM »
I'm still runnin' MD myself... :(

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Re:Setting Bass Roll Off
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2003, 06:54:55 PM »
That's the good ol' Sound Pro box, eh? At Dave Matthews from where you described and your 853s, I'd say you can't lose with the 69 Hz setting.
Armen
Yep this is the soundpro box, so maybe ill give it a shot at 69hz, ill be sec a row m night 1 at polaris and section a row k night 2, so very similar

Offline seekup40

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Re:Setting Bass Roll Off
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2003, 06:56:12 PM »
I also will attempt to tape moe. as well both nights. I'm not too familar with them, just a few songs ive downloaded, are they very bassy live?

Offline seekup40

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Re:Setting Bass Roll Off
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2003, 06:59:31 PM »
I'm still runnin' MD myself... :(
what is your setup?

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Re:Setting Bass Roll Off
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2003, 08:35:09 PM »
Hey Nick, that's why I listen to Meshuggah! ;) 'cept I don't know about their tpaing policy! HAHAHA
Armen

that I respect....too many damn bands that have a taping policy that people consider "good" because they are "cool with the scene"....amazing to me...

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Re:Setting Bass Roll Off
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2003, 08:37:22 PM »
I'm still runnin' MD myself... :(
what is your setup?

DPA 4061 > DPA MPS-6010 > Denecke AD-20 > Sony MZ-R700

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Re:Setting Bass Roll Off
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2003, 08:46:04 PM »
Hey Nick, that's why I listen to Meshuggah! ;) 'cept I don't know about their tpaing policy! HAHAHA
Armen

that I respect....too many damn bands that have a taping policy that people consider "good" because they are "cool with the scene"....amazing to me...

You guys have a fucked-up scene, that's all there is to it. ;D
Armen

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Re:Setting Bass Roll Off
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2003, 08:47:24 PM »
I'm still runnin' MD myself... :(
what is your setup?

DPA 4061 > DPA MPS-6010 > Denecke AD-20 > Sony MZ-R700
but you have quite a bit nicer setup in front of the md than i do

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Re:Setting Bass Roll Off
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2003, 08:49:33 PM »
True, but the DAT/MD difference isn't going to be -that- huge. Precisely why I bought new mics and pre/a/d instead of a DAT recorder...
Still, go for borrowing the DAT. Might as well!

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Re:Setting Bass Roll Off
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2003, 09:03:08 PM »
You guys have a fucked-up scene, that's all there is to it. ;D
Armen

Dont lump me into that "scene"  My musical interests are just a bit broader than hearing some tired hippie jam band try to play guitar like Trey....gotta enjoy alot of everything....otherwise it gets old....

Offline Marc Nutter

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Re:Setting Bass Roll Off
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2003, 10:19:01 PM »
Great post Marc.  I agree 100%.  HPF can be a great tool if used correctly.  I used a -6db/octave @ 75Hz HPF on the V2 most of the time with Neumann tlm170s and km140s.  I don't use the HPF with the ADK A51TL>V3 - the TL's have a natural rolloff, so adding a HPF makes them sound thin and takes that low end punch out of the recording.

Craig.

...And now we return to our regularly scheduled thread about...oh yeah, Bass Roll-off...

Hi Craig (and all),

I'm glad you mentioned the ADK's.  I haven't used them enough to know yet.  And that certainly compliments the point that use of HPF will relate directly to the equipment involved.

Happy Recording Everybody.

Marc

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Re:Setting Bass Roll Off
« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2003, 03:47:16 AM »
why risk something in the field, when it can be fixed post........not worth it to me either, and i own 480's..... ;)

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Re:Setting Bass Roll Off
« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2003, 08:51:14 AM »
why risk something in the field, when it can be fixed post........not worth it to me either, and i own 480's..... ;)

bean

because the 853's cannot handle the same SPL level as most mics and you run the risk of distortion, which cant be fixed post.

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Re:Setting Bass Roll Off
« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2003, 08:52:43 AM »
why risk something in the field, when it can be fixed post........not worth it to me either, and i own 480's..... ;)

bean

I love the bass of the 480s... have never used the rolloff, even in the sweet spot and have generally been pleased with the results.

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Re:Setting Bass Roll Off
« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2003, 10:40:02 AM »
why risk something in the field, when it can be fixed post........not worth it to me either, and i own 480's..... ;)

bean

I love the bass of the 480s... have never used the rolloff, even in the sweet spot and have generally been pleased with the results.

I can agree with this due to the fact I ran my 480's with no rolloff ever.  I think the 853's are not able to handle the SPL's quite as well.  Obviously doe to the variety of rolloff settings available.

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Re:Setting Bass Roll Off
« Reply #28 on: June 04, 2003, 11:44:20 AM »
why risk something in the field, when it can be fixed post........not worth it to me either, and i own 480's..... ;)

bean

Hi bean and All,

The ability to "fix in post" is compromised because you have already sacrificed the additional headroom, and more importantly, given up the resolution (ie. bits), due to the lower level of the mid and high content of the audio.  A rough examples follows.  I would appreciate hearing some further expansion/correction on this from anyone with a deeper understanding of digital audio:

Basically, each bit represents 6dB of dynamic range.  If you are using a 16-bit recorder then you achieve 16-bits only at 0dBfs.  From 0 to -6dBfs, you are only utilizing 15-bits.  This is where we typically let our levels peak.  Now, if the extreme Low Frequency 6-12dB hotter, and we plan to take it out in post, we should roll it off when recording so we optimize our levels (and resolution) based on the level from the mids and highs that we will be keeping.

A fun way to hear the impact of various HPF setting is by taking the line out of your playback deck into the input of your pre-amp.  Set the pre-amp at it's lowest gain setting and connect the outputs of the pre-amp to your receiver/pre-amp in your listening system. (Warning: initially keep levels low on your receiver/pre-amp as the level coming from the microphone pre-amp could be quite hot) Now, play a few different recordings, especially something that is quite bass heavy and something else that is already light on bass.  Switch through the various HPF settings on the pre-amp to observe their impact.

Quote
because the 853's cannot handle the same SPL level as most mics and you run the risk of distortion, which cant be fixed post.

However, depending on the design of the microphone and pad, this may not help.  If the pad/HPF is not between the capsule and the pre-amp section of the microphone, it will only reduce the LF going to tape.  If, on the other hand, it is between the capsule and pre-amp, and the pre-amp is clipping, then the use of a pad or HPF could help significantly.

Happy Recording Everybody,

Marc

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Re:Setting Bass Roll Off
« Reply #29 on: June 04, 2003, 11:55:53 AM »
Quote
I also will attempt to tape moe. as well both nights. I'm not too familar with them, just a few songs ive downloaded, are they very bassy live?

You could try and lump them with Mule perhaps.  Definately a harder tinged "jamband", I prefer to call them balls to the wall rock and roll.  Definately loud, definately not acoustic :)  Bassy as a whole?  Maybe not, but loud, agressive, and in your face.  I might consider running with the HPF depending on your setup.

Enjoy Rob on bass too, he's one hell of a player..

Take care,
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Re:Setting Bass Roll Off
« Reply #30 on: June 04, 2003, 11:58:18 AM »
The last moe. show I saw (february?) was super bass heavy.

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Re:Setting Bass Roll Off
« Reply #31 on: June 04, 2003, 01:48:30 PM »
I had the rolloff on during the Trey show on monday and wished I had kept em on the whole time!  Oh well, that's what comparisons are for.  I would rather have the bass be a little lower on the recordings and turn up the bass during playback if need be.  It seems that the boominess factor decreases a little this way.  Which is exactly what happened on Monday
Phil
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Re:Setting Bass Roll Off
« Reply #32 on: June 04, 2003, 09:05:01 PM »
why risk something in the field, when it can be fixed post........not worth it to me either, and i own 480's..... ;)

bean

Hi bean and All,

The ability to "fix in post" is compromised because you have already sacrificed the additional headroom, and more importantly, given up the resolution (ie. bits), due to the lower level of the mid and high content of the audio.  A rough examples follows.  I would appreciate hearing some further expansion/correction on this from anyone with a deeper understanding of digital audio:

Basically, each bit represents 6dB of dynamic range.  If you are using a 16-bit recorder then you achieve 16-bits only at 0dBfs.  From 0 to -6dBfs, you are only utilizing 15-bits.  This is where we typically let our levels peak.  Now, if the extreme Low Frequency 6-12dB hotter, and we plan to take it out in post, we should roll it off when recording so we optimize our levels (and resolution) based on the level from the mids and highs that we will be keeping.

A fun way to hear the impact of various HPF setting is by taking the line out of your playback deck into the input of your pre-amp.  Set the pre-amp at it's lowest gain setting and connect the outputs of the pre-amp to your receiver/pre-amp in your listening system. (Warning: initially keep levels low on your receiver/pre-amp as the level coming from the microphone pre-amp could be quite hot) Now, play a few different recordings, especially something that is quite bass heavy and something else that is already light on bass.  Switch through the various HPF settings on the pre-amp to observe their impact.

Quote
because the 853's cannot handle the same SPL level as most mics and you run the risk of distortion, which cant be fixed post.

However, depending on the design of the microphone and pad, this may not help.  If the pad/HPF is not between the capsule and the pre-amp section of the microphone, it will only reduce the LF going to tape.  If, on the other hand, it is between the capsule and pre-amp, and the pre-amp is clipping, then the use of a pad or HPF could help significantly.

Happy Recording Everybody,

Marc

mark,
  you have a WAY GREATER understanding of this than i shall ever have.....but due to my love of bass, i shall NEVER use that pad, altho, i will give it a try, just once.......i am sure i couldve used it in a few cases, but i LOVE the transparnet sound of the 480's......and pad at all to me would compromise this......IMO.... 8)

thanks for the informative statements, mark, and glad you gave me a better understanding of bits, persay......

also, is this the same w/ 24 bit???????

bean
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250|0 KCY's (x2) ->
Naiant +60v|Low Noise PFA's (x2) ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's (x3) ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

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Offline Marc Nutter

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Re:Setting Bass Roll Off
« Reply #33 on: June 05, 2003, 07:55:21 PM »
Hi diskobean and All,

The issues are the same at 24-bit but you have better resolution so it's easier to give it up in post and not as critical to retain the highest levels possible when recording/tracking.

As for the pad and High Pass Filters, a pad should be flat across the entire frequency range.  The reluctance to use a pad is based on the fact that it will change the impedance seen by the microphone (if using it on a pre-amp).  A HPF is specific to a given frequency (ie. 75Hz), about 1/2 an octave above the elbow (ie. 112Hz), and everything below that.  

If you are happy with the results you are getting from your system and don't feel like mids and highs are being buried in thunderous bottom-end, there is no reason to use a bass roll-off.

Happy Recording,

Marc

Offline Marc Nutter

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Re:Setting Bass Roll Off--A Little Technique
« Reply #34 on: June 09, 2003, 11:33:01 AM »
Hi All,

Several years ago, a friend shared the following technique for determining if you should use bass roll-off.  

If you feel the bass in your chest, it is a good time to use a bass roll-off (high pass filter).  Usually a very gentle one --6dB/Octave at 50Hz or 75Hz is adequate.  

Just hearing nice pronounced bass, without feeling it, doesn't usually necessitate a filter.

This is kinda cool since it involves the whole body, not just the ears...

YMMV.

Happy Recording Everybody.

Marc

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Re:Setting Bass Roll Off--A Little Technique
« Reply #35 on: June 09, 2003, 12:43:18 PM »
Hi All,

Several years ago, a friend shared the following technique for determining if you should use bass roll-off.  

If you feel the bass in your chest, it is a good time to use a bass roll-off (high pass filter).  Usually a very gentle one --6dB/Octave at 50Hz or 75Hz is adequate.  

Just hearing nice pronounced bass, without feeling it, doesn't usually necessitate a filter.

This is kinda cool since it involves the whole body, not just the ears...

YMMV.

Happy Recording Everybody.

Marc

good yardstick, marc

jr
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Re:Setting Bass Roll Off
« Reply #36 on: June 09, 2003, 05:19:54 PM »
great way to determine, marc.......you told me that YEARS ago, and i still remember...... ;) just never used it cause the pad is on my mics, not a sound ya wanna hear on any tape.... 8)

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