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Author Topic: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz  (Read 54490 times)

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Offline justink

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #75 on: February 28, 2012, 12:24:02 PM »
Slightly off-topic question:

How do you determine how good an SRC is? Resample sine waves and compare the artifacts?

I'm lazy and compare existing test results.

how do you read that?  :lol
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Offline hi and lo

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #76 on: February 28, 2012, 12:31:24 PM »
Slightly off-topic question:

How do you determine how good an SRC is? Resample sine waves and compare the artifacts?

I'm lazy and compare existing test results.

how do you read that?  :lol

Here's the documentation for the tests.

http://src.infinitewave.ca/help.html

Offline twatts (pants are so over-rated...)

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #77 on: February 28, 2012, 02:44:08 PM »
Slightly off-topic question:

How do you determine how good an SRC is? Resample sine waves and compare the artifacts?

I'm lazy and compare existing test results.

I'm even lazier, and just do what Page's thinks is best...  so...  what do you think is best, Page???
***Do you have PHISH, VIDA BLUE, JAZZ MANDOLIN PROJECT or any other Phish related DATs/Tapes/MDs that need to be transferred???  I can do them for you!!!***

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #78 on: February 28, 2012, 03:02:51 PM »
Slightly off-topic question:

How do you determine how good an SRC is? Resample sine waves and compare the artifacts?

I'm lazy and compare existing test results.

I'm even lazier, and just do what Page's thinks is best...  so...  what do you think is best, Page???

I saw what you did there.  :P

"This is a common practice we have on the bus; debating facts that we could easily find through printed material. It's like, how far is it today? I think it's four hours, and someone else comes in at 11 hours, and well, then we'll... just... talk about it..." - Jeb Puryear

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #79 on: February 28, 2012, 03:46:43 PM »
Slightly off-topic question:

How do you determine how good an SRC is? Resample sine waves and compare the artifacts?

I'm lazy and compare existing test results.

I'm even lazier, and just do what Page's thinks is best...  so...  what do you think is best, Page???

I saw what you did there.  :P



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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #80 on: February 28, 2012, 04:27:13 PM »
Slightly off-topic question:

How do you determine how good an SRC is? Resample sine waves and compare the artifacts?

I'm lazy and compare existing test results.

I'm even lazier, and just do what Page's thinks is best...  so...  what do you think is best, Page???

I saw what you did there.  :P



LOL!!!  CLASSIC!!!

Terry
***Do you have PHISH, VIDA BLUE, JAZZ MANDOLIN PROJECT or any other Phish related DATs/Tapes/MDs that need to be transferred???  I can do them for you!!!***

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Sony PCM R500 > SPDIF > Tascam HD-P2
Nakamichi DR-3 > (Oade Advanced Concert Mod) Tascam HD-P2
Sony MDS-JE510 > Hosa ODL-276 > Tascam HD-P2

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #81 on: February 28, 2012, 04:45:55 PM »
I guess I should preface that by saying that:

1) I already have something that uses the Izotope algo for SRC.
2) I typically record at 44.1, but have on occasion gone higher.

So if I recorded above 44.1 (and that was my destination), and I didn't already have an Izotope product at my disposal, I'd look at Sox (which is both free & great).
"This is a common practice we have on the bus; debating facts that we could easily find through printed material. It's like, how far is it today? I think it's four hours, and someone else comes in at 11 hours, and well, then we'll... just... talk about it..." - Jeb Puryear

"Nostalgia ain't what it used to be." - Jim Williams

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #82 on: February 28, 2012, 04:47:14 PM »
I guess I should preface that by saying that:

1) I already have something that uses the Izotope algo for SRC.
2) I typically record at 44.1, but have on occasion gone higher.

So if I recorded above 44.1 (and that was my destination), and I didn't already have an Izotope product at my disposal, I'd look at Sox (which is both free & great).

Going back and reading, there was talk about r8brain and someone suggested that it used Izo...  I doubt the free version does so...  How would you comp the free r8brain to any of the above???

Thanks,

Terry
***Do you have PHISH, VIDA BLUE, JAZZ MANDOLIN PROJECT or any other Phish related DATs/Tapes/MDs that need to be transferred???  I can do them for you!!!***

I will return your DATs/Tapes/MDs.  I'll also provide Master FLAC files via DropBox.  PM me for details.

Sony PCM R500 > SPDIF > Tascam HD-P2
Nakamichi DR-3 > (Oade Advanced Concert Mod) Tascam HD-P2
Sony MDS-JE510 > Hosa ODL-276 > Tascam HD-P2

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #83 on: February 28, 2012, 05:01:42 PM »
I guess I should preface that by saying that:

1) I already have something that uses the Izotope algo for SRC.
2) I typically record at 44.1, but have on occasion gone higher.

So if I recorded above 44.1 (and that was my destination), and I didn't already have an Izotope product at my disposal, I'd look at Sox (which is both free & great).

Going back and reading, there was talk about r8brain and someone suggested that it used Izo...  I doubt the free version does so...  How would you comp the free r8brain to any of the above???

Thanks,

Terry

no idea, never used it myself. Looking at the test results, ironically, it looks like the free version bests the pro one in noise terms... I wonder if the tests are on different versions or what went wrong there.

Look at the bright side, at least you're not using Sony Vegas.  :-X That's like an acid trip.
"This is a common practice we have on the bus; debating facts that we could easily find through printed material. It's like, how far is it today? I think it's four hours, and someone else comes in at 11 hours, and well, then we'll... just... talk about it..." - Jeb Puryear

"Nostalgia ain't what it used to be." - Jim Williams

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #84 on: February 28, 2012, 05:10:41 PM »

no idea, never used it myself. Looking at the test results, ironically, it looks like the free version bests the pro one in noise terms... I wonder if the tests are on different versions or what went wrong there.

Look at the bright side, at least you're not using Sony Vegas.  :-X That's like an acid trip.

LOL!  Thanks! 

Terry
***Do you have PHISH, VIDA BLUE, JAZZ MANDOLIN PROJECT or any other Phish related DATs/Tapes/MDs that need to be transferred???  I can do them for you!!!***

I will return your DATs/Tapes/MDs.  I'll also provide Master FLAC files via DropBox.  PM me for details.

Sony PCM R500 > SPDIF > Tascam HD-P2
Nakamichi DR-3 > (Oade Advanced Concert Mod) Tascam HD-P2
Sony MDS-JE510 > Hosa ODL-276 > Tascam HD-P2

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #85 on: February 28, 2012, 05:49:08 PM »
Like WOW man, I'm so aliasing!

quote from the last paragraph of the test result documentation -
..Most of the tested algorithms provide reasonably good conversion quality, with the graphs showing very low distortion levels. Performance measurement almost doesn't correlate with the price of the product, in all price ranges there are good and poor-quality units. It is not always possible to judge subjective quality from the presented measurement results.
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Offline SmokinJoe

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #86 on: March 03, 2012, 02:00:55 PM »
Going back a few pages, the topic was brought up about low pass filters.  It's important to have a low pass filter before an A/D to avoid aliasing.  Ideally it would be a very sharp drop.  If you are recording at 44.1k, you would like to capture everything up to at least 20k, not have a slow decay curve between 16-20k.  This presented the question, how good is the one in my R4?  In my SRC software?  So I did a little home experiment which almost anyone can recreate, no special equipment required.

Cut to the punchline... 95% (maybe 99%) of what we have been discussing in this thread becomes a non-issue.  The LPF on my recorder is plenty steep enough, so is my SRC, and the SRC's seem to do a really great job.

Generate a "standard sweep":
In Audacity, there is a menu option "Generate -> Tone".  Create a 16k sine wave, 30 seconds is fine, amplitude of 0.2.  Do the same for 17k, 18k, 19k and 20k.  Now you have 5 sweeps and when you mix them all together it's an amplitude of 1.0, and these discrete building blocks combined.  I did this at 44k because the anything in 16k-20k can be completely represented at 44k.  But just for the heck of it, I repeated at 96k, and I was able to see that there really was no difference between the generated sweeps, so I stuck with the 44k one.

Run that into your recorder
I ran TRS cables from my sound card, an M-audio Profire Lightbridge, to my Busman Tmod R4.  Not the best DAC, but I figured I would try the easy one first, and if I thought it mattered I'd try other ones I have (I later decided this was good enough).  Press PLAY on the computer, press RECORD on the R4.  Not synchronized, but as long as you get 25 seconds out of the 30, close enough.  Do runs with R4 at 44k, 48k, and 96k.  I also repeated the set using SPDIF out of the sound card > SPDIF into the R4.  It's common knowledge that the R4 resamples DIGI in, so a 44k digi signal can be resampled to 96k... just curious how that would compare.

Compare the recorded sweeps:
Pulling up the recordings from the R4... the first thing I noticed is that I can see a visible difference... interesting.  In the picture "3wavs" 44k is at the top, 48k mid, and 96k at the bottom.  Then look at the individual plots.  The 44k looks very similar to the standard, and the 48k and 96k plots have high frequency resonances which aren't in the original.  By definition, that's distortion, but realistically I can't hear it, so it probably doesn't matter.  Then look at the 20k peaks on the plots... they are all coming up to pretty much 0 db, including the one I recorded at 44.1k, which means there is not a low pass filter reducing it at 20k.  It's hard to tell for sure in the graphs, but in the next post, I have the data exported as text files.  If you compare the 20k peak on the generated standard to the 20k peak on the analog recording, it's off by about 0.1db.  I'm going to call that a result of analog transfer rather than a result of LPF rolloff.

Then I resampled the 96k file to 44.1k using "ssrc high precision".  That's what I've been using for years, first on linux, then on windows.  Luckily it's one of the shining stars in Page's comp studies.  The bottom line is that the resampled one is virtually identical to the standard, and the one recorded at 44.1k.   I kind of thought these SRC software options were a necessary evil, the output of which is about like adding an analog gen.  I'm proven wrong.  They are excellent, at least in this sample.
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Offline mosquito

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #87 on: March 03, 2012, 02:07:00 PM »
Cool work, SmokinJoe.  Think you could provide that combined sweep file?  It might be interesting to let others reproduce the test using their own equipment.  (And we'd get more easily compared info if we started with the same initial file.)

Offline SmokinJoe

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #88 on: March 03, 2012, 02:14:14 PM »
Attached are the text files, same data as the pictures, except you can pull up 2 text files and see how close the peaks are numerically.

The generated standard file is at http://joe.bouchard.com/tunes/testtone16-20k_2444.flac
That's kind of my temporary drop off space, I can leave it there for a while, but eventually will delete it.  Anyone have a good place to store it long term?

By the way... how did the "digi-transfer with resample" results compare to that analog transfer results.  Very, very, close, including the little high freq aberrations are there, same as the analog results, which I didn't expect.  I think what that really says is that the FFT used to define frequency from a mixed signal creates them more than anything else... it's a math problem during analysis in Audacity, more so than an A/D problem.

By the way... I'm 48 years old, been working in machine shops, shooting guns, and listening to rock music most of my life.  I can barely hear the 16k when I know it's there.  I definitely can't hear 17-20k, and certainly not the aberrations at 22 or 24k.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2012, 02:42:30 PM by SmokinJoe »
Mics: Schoeps MK4 & CMC5's / Gefell M200's & M210's / ADK-TL / DPA4061's
Pres: V3 / ST9100
Decks: Oade Concert Mod R4Pro / R09 / R05
Photo: Nikon D700's, 2.8 Zooms, and Zeiss primes
Playback: Raspberry Pi > Modi2 Uber > Magni2 > HD650

Offline mosquito

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #89 on: March 03, 2012, 04:30:47 PM »
Thanks! 

I can definitely hear this stuff -- luckily at my age -- but I know my playback is currently... "sub-par".

I've put it here, if that's OK:  http://homepage.mac.com/mosquito/sj-testtone16-20k_2444.flac  It's only a few megs, so I'll leave it there indefinitely (but can't promise to pay for that hosting forever).

I'll see if I can record this into my DR-100 tomorrow and we can see what it does here.

 

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