Become a Site Supporter and Never see Ads again!

Author Topic: Recording Show With HUGE Dynamic Range  (Read 3587 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Scooter123

  • "I am not an alcoholic. I am a drunk. Drunks don't go to meetings."
  • Trade Count: (9)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3774
Recording Show With HUGE Dynamic Range
« on: April 10, 2014, 01:16:32 PM »
I recently screwed up a recording. 

The artist was super quiet, both speaking, singing and playing.  I would ordinarily set my Sony M-10 at 7 or 8 with this soft of a level.

However, the crowd was incredibly loud, with clapping and cheering after each track.  I would have set my Sony at 4 or 4.5 tops for this type of level. 

So if I set the recorder for the music, the clapping and cheering would be way above 0db and would obviously clip. 

If I set the recorder so the clapping would not clip, the music would be barely audible. 

As it stood, I went with my standard setting with is about 4.5 and the recording came out terrible.  The claps were at -12 tops, but the music was like -24 or -36, barely audible and had to be boosted considerably, which amplified ambient noise to an annoying level. 

My opinion is that I should have set the recorder for the music and simply dealt with the clipping in post.  Compress it, reduce the volume, fade it out, whatever. 

Ideas?  I've not encountered this phenomenon before.  Thanks in advance for any help in future recordings like this

Regards,
Scooter123

mk41 > N Box  > Sony M-10
mk4 > N Box > Sony M-10

Offline ScoobieKW

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1664
    • ScoobieSnax Audio Archive
Re: Recording Show With HUGE Dynamic Range
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2014, 01:24:39 PM »
I'd set your levels for program material and let the M10 limiter deal with the audience peaks.

If you run two M10s, you can do a variation on something I've been doing lately. I've started to use my multitrack rig splitting the input signals into two preamps, one set 12 db quieter than the other. That way I can mix the quiet parts from my high gain source with the loud parts from my low gain source.
Busman BSC1, AT853 (O,C),KAM i2 Chuck Mod (C), Nak 300 (C),
M10, UA-5, US-1800, Presonus Firepod

http://kennedy-williams.net/scoobiesnax/

Offline fmaderjr

  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1966
Re: Recording Show With HUGE Dynamic Range
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2014, 02:00:50 PM »
I went with my standard setting with is about 4.5 and the recording came out terrible.  The claps were at -12 tops, but the music was like -24 or -36, barely audible and had to be boosted considerably, which amplified ambient noise to an annoying level. 

I may be missing something but it seems to me that there is nothing you can do to get a good recording when levels are this low unless the crowd and ambient noise are incredibly quiet.

IMO, whether you amplify the music to appropriate levels solely with the recorder or in post, it seems to me that the ambient noise will be boosted the same amount with both methods and if the ambient noise is too loud relative to the music you will get a noisy recording in both cases.
AT853's (all caps)/CM-300 Franken Naks (CP-1,2,3)/JBMod Nak 700's (CP-701,702) > Tascam DR-680
Or Sonic Studios DSM-6 > M10

Offline 2manyrocks

  • Trade Count: (12)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1664
Re: Recording Show With HUGE Dynamic Range
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2014, 02:56:06 PM »
There was an episode of the Beverly Hillbillies in which Jethro said he could "cipher real good" and proceeded to say naught x naught=naught, naught x one = naught, naught x two =naught....

There's a point when audio is so quiet, it's pretty much impossible to get a good recording unless you've own mic right on the artist and you have full control of your own gain on that mic.  Otherwise, its naught x naught=naught, IMO.

   

Offline ScoobieKW

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1664
    • ScoobieSnax Audio Archive
Re: Recording Show With HUGE Dynamic Range
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2014, 03:01:49 PM »
Sorry, missed the word ambient in the noise description.

You could try iZotope RX to clean up the noise, there's a 30 day trial available.
Busman BSC1, AT853 (O,C),KAM i2 Chuck Mod (C), Nak 300 (C),
M10, UA-5, US-1800, Presonus Firepod

http://kennedy-williams.net/scoobiesnax/

Offline acidjack

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (37)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *
  • Posts: 5845
  • Gender: Male
Re: Recording Show With HUGE Dynamic Range
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2014, 03:13:04 PM »
I went with my standard setting with is about 4.5 and the recording came out terrible.  The claps were at -12 tops, but the music was like -24 or -36, barely audible and had to be boosted considerably, which amplified ambient noise to an annoying level. 

I may be missing something but it seems to me that there is nothing you can do to get a good recording when levels are this low unless the crowd and ambient noise are incredibly quiet.

IMO, whether you amplify the music to appropriate levels solely with the recorder or in post, it seems to me that the ambient noise will be boosted the same amount with both methods and if the ambient noise is too loud relative to the music you will get a noisy recording in both cases.

-24 isn't that bad if the pre you are using is sufficiently quiet. Though it's not ideal, certainly.

I agree, I'd probably aim to get the claps to not clip, and run the limiter. But it's not easy.
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
Pres/Power: Aerco MP2, tinybox v2  [KCY], CA-UBB
Decks: Sound Devices MixPre 6, Zoom F8, M10, D50

My recordings on nyctaper.com: http://www.nyctaper.com/?tag=acidjack | LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/acidjack | twitter: http://www.twitter.com/acidjacknyc | Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/acidjacknyc

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 15700
  • Gender: Male
  • "Better to love music than respect it" ~Stravinsky
Re: Recording Show With HUGE Dynamic Range
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2014, 04:34:36 PM »
I don't like to hear limiters working, I really dislike hearing clipping, and the same for my equipment's own noise, so I try to record the full dynamic range from ambient noise floor up to the loudest applause.  But that's only when I know the applause will be louder than the loudest musical part. The applause fills the headroom above the music parts. I set levels so the loudest normal audience applause is just slightly under clipping.  I don't leave much extra headroom for that and if it does clip it's only very occasionally during the most spirited applause, a nearby whistler.  I know the ambient noise floor of the venue will still be higher than the noise floor of my gear, so it doesn't matter how much I need to manipulate levels after the recording is made. If I boost the level of the music afterwards, the apparent noise at the bottom remains the same regardless of my recording levels when I reduce the total recorded dynamic range to something more appropriate for playback by bringing the level of the music up and the level of the applause down. 

As Scoob mentioned, you can engage the limiter, and it will actively manage the applause  peaks, which would allow you to use higher recording gain settings which bring up the average level of the music parts.  But that only helps the low level noise situation if your gear has a higher apparent noise floor than the ambient noise floor of the space you are recording. Otherwise it just does a more clumsy dynamics reduction of the applause as the recording is being made, rather than the better sounding and  more appropriately adjusted way you could do it later.

If I was sure that the limiters on my recorders would only effect the highest peaks of applause which would otherwise clip anyway, I'd run them.  But I take the risk of an occassional clip only during applause on an occasional recording because it's really not that objectionable in comparison to the potential impact the limiters cold have on the music or the naturalness of the non-clipping applause.  I simply haven't tested them well enough to be more comfortable running them than not, and I know I can set accurate levels in advance by applauding myself at home.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2014, 11:42:53 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline daspyknows

  • Complaint Dept.
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 9636
  • Gender: Male
  • Don't ask, don't tell, don't get get caught
Re: Recording Show With HUGE Dynamic Range
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2014, 10:00:15 PM »
I was going to say something about taping skill.   ;D  You know I'm just giving you sh*t. 

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 15700
  • Gender: Male
  • "Better to love music than respect it" ~Stravinsky
Re: Recording Show With HUGE Dynamic Range
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2014, 11:07:07 PM »
Geesh I just re-read that, what blathering. 

It flowed like a taping mantra out though the keyboard at the time.

words.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2014, 11:43:32 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline mr qpl

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 516
Re: Recording Show With HUGE Dynamic Range
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2014, 11:00:54 AM »
I try to get -20 on the lowest musical tones, the applause always goes over and I use envelope and hard limiter to drop it. sorta works ok, have ended up with good and bad results, bad from too loud applause and bad from low music.....it is an issue for sure......solution? on stage mics?

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 15700
  • Gender: Male
  • "Better to love music than respect it" ~Stravinsky
Re: Recording Show With HUGE Dynamic Range
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2014, 11:30:51 AM »
The condensed version of the blather I posted yesterday is that I really don't care at what level the music is recorded as long as the lowest level recorded sound (ambient room silence) is above the noise floor of my recording-chain and the highest level (applause in this case) is under 0dbFS.  As long as that entire range fits it doesn't matter where the smaller range of music lands within it.  I'll adjust dynamics later and will have the entire range to work with, recorded cleanly without added noise or distortion.. and that includes all portions of the recording- the silent parts, the music and applause.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline audBall

  • Trade Count: (37)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • Posts: 6467
  • Gender: Male
  • Feel brand new about it
Re: Recording Show With HUGE Dynamic Range
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2014, 01:54:28 PM »
Wasn't there some discussion in the past of using parallel compression in post for instances like these? I've never used it personally but it seems like it could be an option.
mg m20.21.23 ■ akg ck61.62.63 »  nbob■naiant »  aercomp2 ■ v2-3 ■ sx-m2d2
dpa 4061 » mma-a.6000
d100 ■ r44ocm ■ f3

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 15700
  • Gender: Male
  • "Better to love music than respect it" ~Stravinsky
Re: Recording Show With HUGE Dynamic Range
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2014, 04:35:16 PM »
It's more complicated than this, but basically there are two sides of the coin when it comes to dynamic range reduction- raising the level of the quiet stuff at the bottom, and lowering the level of the loud stuff at the top.

Parallel comp is a good strategy for addressing the quiet end of the dynamic range reduction effort after the recording is made.  It "elevates the stuff at the bottom" making what was too quiet loud enough to be heard more clearly.  One thing to be careful about in applying it is that it always raises the level of the recorded noise floor as well as the quieter music details, both of which which may have been inaudible previously.  If that noise floor is from the recorded environment there is little you can do about it other than reducing it before recording by turning off the noisy HVAC system or finding a quieter recording environment.  Afterwards you can address that noise-floor issue indirectly by using less agressive compression settings, or directly with a noise reduction filter or something like EQ automation which is only applied to the quiet parts when the noise becomes objectionable.  If the primary contributor to the noise floor on the recording is not the environment itself but your gear, you may be able to address that by optimizing recording settings.  If not, consider upgrading the noisy gear for something quieter if you do a lot of this type of recording. 

The other half of the dynamic range management effort addresses the loud end of the range by lowering the loudest peaks or longer duration events.  That's where 'regular' limiting and compression works by automatically lowering the loudest parts as they occur.   That can be done by a limiter while recording, or afterwards on the computer with limiting, compression, automated volume envelopes, manually redrawing peaks with the 'pencil tool' or combinations of those things.  Done afterwards, post-production skills become part of the equation- first by way of deciding what dynamic range reduction efforts are most appropriate, then in knowing how to best apply them for best results.  Doing it afterwards instead of relying on the recorder's limiter to do it beforehand doesn't necessarily make it sound better.  It can be done clumsily or transparently.  What it does give you is the opportunity to do it better and less obviousy if you know what to do.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 15700
  • Gender: Male
  • "Better to love music than respect it" ~Stravinsky
Re: Recording Show With HUGE Dynamic Range
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2014, 04:50:19 PM »
Usually the best sounding approach is to do a little bit of both- bring down the loud top as well as bring up the quiet bottom (and to do it best, also manage the average level of the middle where the core of the music is, maybe that's analogous to balancing the coin on it's edge), rather than trying to do it all at the loud end of the range with a single stage of limiting.  And if you want significant dynamics reduction in the cleanest sounding way, each of those things is often done best in several stages rather than with a single stage of limiting up top or whatever.

If you don't care if the applause sounds squashed and unnatural, you can just limit it strongly enough to allow you to bring up the level of the music to where you want it and be done quickly.  If you want the best sounding recording you can make of the entire event including the quiet portions, the enthusiastic audience reaction, and manage the average level from song to song throughout the entire performance, you might want to spend more effort mastering a less obvious, layered approach.

[edit- This is another angle on page's insight enshrined in my sig below. Not only is the illusion vs document debate an "effort/ROI" question, all of taping is.  The strategies for managing the dynamic range if a recording which I'm talking about above are an excellent example of that.  Deciding when and where it's appropriate to make those efforts, and then how much time to spend and how involved to get in making them, becomes the most important questions once you have a basic idea of what can be done.  You can always learn or ask how exactly to go about doing it, but you need to have at least an idea of what can be done to make the determination of whether it's worth it or not.]
« Last Edit: April 11, 2014, 05:24:21 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline rjp

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 432
  • Gender: Male
  • You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
Re: Recording Show With HUGE Dynamic Range
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2014, 10:30:27 PM »
I've run into that on occasion. A lot depends on whether you want to break things out as individual tracks, or as a single flowing concert recording. If you break things out as individual tracks, you can get a bit more flexibility with respect to boosting quiet pieces.

Parallel compression CAN be useful, and so can hard limiting on applause. Sometimes a combination of both works best. Another thing you can do in postprocessing is to temporarily drop the level on applause. This works best in classical and choral performances where there is a pause between the end of the piece and the applause.

No one tactic works best in all situations. Trial and error is the order of the day.
Mics: AKG Perception 170, Naiant X-X, Sound Professionals SP-TFB-2
Preamps: Naiant Littlebox
Recorders: Olympus LS-10
Interfaces: Focusrite Saffire Pro 14, Focusrite Scarlett 2i2

 

RSS | Mobile
Page created in 0.085 seconds with 40 queries.
© 2002-2024 Taperssection.com
Powered by SMF