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Author Topic: powering options for DPA4061 w/Microdots  (Read 11230 times)

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: powering options for DPA4061 w/Microdots
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2015, 04:49:14 PM »
The 'normal' DPA mic catalog is too costly for me, especially given my weirdo multi-channel recording rigs.  I do prefer my Gefell cards and supercards which I've bought used from other members here, but in my multi-channel recording setups that sound quality difference becomes less significant than in a straight 2-channel setup, and the size, weight, lower cost, and environmental toughness of the miniature DPAs wins out (decided after making numerous comparisons of identical setups).

There are of course many other options, especially miniature omnis.  I like what little I've heard from the Jon's mics (Naiant) but haven't used any myself yet and haven't heard enough from them to make a judgement.  I've considered building an alternate low-cost version of the 6-channel light-weight low-powered telescopic rig I've now settled on as more or less my 'standard' outdoor open rig, substituting Naiant omnis and supercards for the DPAs.  I'd be interested in hearing that comparison.

I tried a number of other miniature omnis which were less costly but just didn't work for me.  I had high hopes for the Countryman B3, which is the same size and weight, but it just doesn't have anything like the sound quality or smooth response EQ-ability to my ear.
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline voltronic

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Re: powering options for DPA4061 w/Microdots
« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2015, 05:58:34 PM »
I hadn't realized they did the heavy duty cable for 4060; I thought it was just the 4061.  I think that's exactly what I'm looking for.  Unfortunately, that's not ever what pops up on the used market, nor does it seem to come in the SMK stereo kit with the phantom adapters and other assorted goodies.

Being that I also would only use these mounted on a stand, for a brief moment I considered a used set of 4090s (linked below for those not familiar) which are the same capsule as the 4060 mounted in a body.  When I found out that you can't mount the high-boost grids on them though, I lost interest.  I think what 2manyrocks (and now me) are getting at is this: Would one of the builders here would be able to make something like a poor-man's 4090 that would still allow the grids to be mounted?  I'm envisioning the 4060 capsule sticking out of the rubber boot of an XLR connector, though I don't know if that would leave enough room for the circuitry or if it would even be a cost-effective thing to do.

The other angle I'm still considering is Line Audio OM1s, but because of their super-flat response, I would need an APE sphere for the distant placements I'm usually faced with.  My DIY skills are probably not up to something that tricky.  I wonder if this is something worthy of a Shapeways project?

http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/products.aspx?c=item&category=143&item=24065

2manyrocks - I don't know if you've seen these threads on GS, but here are two examples of the kinds of cool mounting you can do with the DPA 406x:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/371020-diy-onno-mic-stand-carbon-fiber.html
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/331640-very-light-elegant-carbon-fiber-mic-stand-dpa4060.html
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: powering options for DPA4061 w/Microdots
« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2015, 06:39:00 PM »
I'm no fan of the high-boost long-grids and don't recommend them, they are too high-Q peaky.  They are intended to correct the response for under clothing mounting on the talent for voice work.  I only keep them around to sand down to the same length of the short grids in case I need an extra, or to trade for short grids. 

I always use the short grids.  The mics are better protected and the response with them is flatter overall- it does have more of a peak around 10KHz (lower Q than the high-boost grids) than naked without any grid, but is also more extended and doesn't drop off as fast above that.   Again, my standard is "EQability" and the short grids give me that.   With the short grids it's basically a diffuse-field type shelf response.  I can adjust with EQ either way from there as necessary due to placement, distance or whatever.  Even with stealth under clothing music recording setups I prefer the short grids and add whatever high-shelf EQ is necessary.

Would one of the builders here would be able to make something like a poor-man's 4090 that would still allow the grids to be mounted?  I'm envisioning the 4060 capsule sticking out of the rubber boot of an XLR connector, though I don't know if that would leave enough room for the circuitry or if it would even be a cost-effective thing to do.

Could do that pretty easily with Naiant PFAs.  Just hardwire them to the PFA board and mount the mic in the rubber strain relief with some sealant.  Would make mounting an APE ball attachment more difficult, but with a bit more work you could mount the mic at the end of a piece of tubing about the same diameter as the mic body.

I'm sure you've seen the DIY APE sphere's I used to use, pictured in my threads here.  Not difficult to make, just Nerf gun balls with an appropriate sized hole melted through them using a big nail head headed up with a propane torch and a cut section of drinking straw inserted.  The drinking straw just makes for a smother bore so mic insertion is easier.  I've seen closed cell foam outdoor ping-pong and floating golf practice balls from the same material in slightly smaller diameters and different colors.  Could be additive manufactured (3D-printed) easily as well I suppose.

The close cell foam balls are light enough that I could use them on the end of the antennas at a wide spread, couldn't do that with a wooden sphere, unless delicate balsa.  They are well damped and don't ring as far as I can tell, with a density and surface harness sufficient for the frequencies in question.

Not sure if DPA offers the heavy duty cable on the 4060 as well as the 4061.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 06:44:20 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline voltronic

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Re: powering options for DPA4061 w/Microdots
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2015, 07:02:56 PM »
I'm no fan of the high-boost long-grids and don't recommend them, they are too high-Q peaky.  They are intended to correct the response for under clothing mounting on the talent for voice work.  I only keep them around to sand down to the same length of the short grids in case I need an extra, or to trade for short grids. 

I always use the short grids.  The mics are better protected and the response with them is flatter overall- it does have more of a peak around 10KHz (lower Q than the high-boost grids) than naked without any grid, but is also more extended and doesn't drop off as fast above that.   Again, my standard is "EQability" and the short grids give me that.   With the short grids it's basically a diffuse-field type shelf response.  I can adjust with EQ either way from there as necessary due to placement, distance or whatever.  Even with stealth under clothing music recording setups I prefer the short grids and add whatever high-shelf EQ is necessary.

Would one of the builders here would be able to make something like a poor-man's 4090 that would still allow the grids to be mounted?  I'm envisioning the 4060 capsule sticking out of the rubber boot of an XLR connector, though I don't know if that would leave enough room for the circuitry or if it would even be a cost-effective thing to do.

Could do that pretty easily with Naiant PFAs.  Just hardwire them to the PFA board and mount the mic in the rubber strain relief with some sealant.  Would make mounting an APE ball attachment more difficult, but with a bit more work you could mount the mic at the end of a piece of tubing about the same diameter as the mic body.

I'm sure you've seen the DIY APE sphere's I used to use, pictured in my threads here.  Not difficult to make, just Nerf gun balls with an appropriate sized hole melted through them using a big nail head headed up with a propane torch and a cut section of drinking straw inserted.  The drinking straw just makes for a smother bore so mic insertion is easier.  I've seen closed cell foam outdoor ping-pong and floating golf practice balls from the same material in slightly smaller diameters and different colors.  Could be additive manufactured (3D-printed) easily as well I suppose.

The close cell foam balls are light enough that I could use them on the end of the antennas at a wide spread, couldn't do that with a wooden sphere, unless delicate balsa.  They are well damped and don't ring as far as I can tell, with a density and surface harness sufficient for the frequencies in question.

Not sure if DPA offers the heavy duty cable on the 4060 as well as the 4061.

I wasn't aware the high boost grids made things that peaky.  The result I'm looking for is something good for diffuse-field work and it's good to know that the short grids do that.

Yes, I have seen your APE spheres for DPAs and they are very cool.  I was only considering them for use with something like the OM1 though, not the DPAs.  From the classical recordings I've heard with 4060s, I think the DPAs would work great with me without spheres. 

It seems like spheres for the OM1s would bit more complicated to make due to the shape of those mics.  If I had a drill press as Jon mentions, it would probably not be a big deal, but sadly there's no garage in my apartment where I can keep it.  That's why I would pay a reasonable price for someone to make a set.

If money wasn't a consideration, I'd just buy the 4060s, but the OM1s are $275 a pair shipped and I really love how they sound.  I'd just need to figure out the sphere for distance work.

Here's the 4060 heavy duty.  Looks like it's about $30 more than the standard version:
http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/products.aspx?c=Item&category=128&item=24741
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1051079-REG/dpa_microphones_sco60ba10_h_d_screet_heavy_duty_omni.html/?gclid=CLOe9JzQzMYCFYyQHwod5n4I1g

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: powering options for DPA4061 w/Microdots
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2015, 07:22:34 PM »
If money wasn't a consideration, I'd just buy the 4060s, but the OM1s are $275 a pair shipped and I really love how they sound.  I'd just need to figure out the sphere for distance work.

If you like the sound of the OM1s and don't need miniature or low-voltage powering than the choice is easy.  Use them without an attachment and EQ in as much diffuse response as you like.  If you find you want to play around with changing their polar response, a sphere attachment can probably be figured out (I'm trying to recall the shape of the OM1).. or maybe a flat plate attachment instead, which may be easier and cheaper to 3D print or otherwise make from wood, a container lid, or a CD / DVD.. actually the clear plastic disc from the top of a CDR spindle stack might work nicely.  With a plate the off-axis won't be as smooth, and the on-axis bump more pronounced, I'd guess that kind of thing is probably used more as an on-axis response modification for instrument mic'ing rather than for far-field ambient stereo config use.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline voltronic

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Re: powering options for DPA4061 w/Microdots
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2015, 07:37:01 PM »
If money wasn't a consideration, I'd just buy the 4060s, but the OM1s are $275 a pair shipped and I really love how they sound.  I'd just need to figure out the sphere for distance work.

If you like the sound of the OM1s and don't need miniature or low-voltage powering than the choice is easy.  Use them without an attachment and EQ in as much diffuse response as you like.  If you find you want to play around with changing their polar response, a sphere attachment can probably be figured out (I'm trying to recall the shape of the OM1).. or maybe a flat plate attachment instead, which may be easier and cheaper to 3D print or otherwise make from wood, a container lid, or a CD / DVD.. actually the clear plastic disc from the top of a CDR spindle stack might work nicely.  With a plate the off-axis won't be as smooth, and the on-axis bump more pronounced, I'd guess that kind of thing is probably used more as an on-axis response modification for instrument mic'ing rather than for far-field ambient stereo config use.

Thanks for the advice.  There's a good picture of the OM1 on this page.  The angled part at the capsule end is what I thought would be tricky to get a corresponding hole drilled into a sphere.
http://www.nohypeaudio.com/lineaudioproducts.htm
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Offline voltronic

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Re: powering options for DPA4061 w/Microdots
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2015, 07:57:24 PM »
Maybe attaching spheres to the OM1 is not such a good idea.  Read posts 174 and 176 here:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/745131-om1-whats-about-6.html#post10457749

I guess if I want a diffuse-field omni, then I should just use one built to be just that, rather than try to make a free-field omni into something it's not.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: powering options for DPA4061 w/Microdots
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2015, 10:03:21 PM »
Ahh typical GS  ::)  Looks like they were arguing about the applicability of the 3:1 rule for stereo omni mic'ing on the page prior.  I can only read GS in small doses.  Too much weeding necessary to get to the real dirt.  I like to listen to the posted samples though.  :P

Since we're already OT here..

Jon, I know you've made disk attachments for some of your omnis- both wooden and 3D printed if I recall correctly.  I've never used a disk on an omni.  I'm curious to hear how you characterize their effect and what you'd consider appropriate (and inappropriate) applications for them?
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: powering options for DPA4061 w/Microdots
« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2015, 10:17:15 PM »
voltronic, if you pick up a pair of the OM1 measure the diameter of the capsule opening end, the diameter of the body, and the length of the taper and I'll make you a couple spheres you can slip onto them to experiment with.

The trickiest part of using them with the 4060 is securing the mics in them so that the capsule grid remains flush with the sphere.  That should be less of a problem with the OM1 since the mic is big enough to push the sphere onto until flush, and the foam will stretch slightly upon insertion to hold it in place.  I'll figure out a way to mill an appropriate hole.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: powering options for DPA4061 w/Microdots
« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2015, 10:42:26 PM »
If you could remove the capsule or otherwise protect it, you could make a straight collar with a tapered inside shaft by sticking the body in the appropriate sized tube filled with rtv sealant.  Let the sealant cure.  Then drill a straight hole through the sphere.  Slip it over the collar.

Would that work?  Or does the sphere have to have the taper so there isn't a big difference between the end of the capsule and the body of the sphere? 

Offline voltronic

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Re: powering options for DPA4061 w/Microdots
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2015, 11:03:55 PM »
voltronic, if you pick up a pair of the OM1 measure the diameter of the capsule opening end, the diameter of the body, and the length of the taper and I'll make you a couple spheres you can slip onto them to experiment with.

The trickiest part of using them with the 4060 is securing the mics in them so that the capsule grid remains flush with the sphere.  That should be less of a problem with the OM1 since the mic is big enough to push the sphere onto until flush, and the foam will stretch slightly upon insertion to hold it in place.  I'll figure out a way to mill an appropriate hole.

That's very generous of you!  I wasn't specifically asking someone to do this for me right now; more just speaking in the hypothetical at this point.  If at some point I do pick up a pair of them, I will definitely consider your offer.  I think I'm going to abandon the 4060 idea for right now, unless a really cherry pair at a crazy price falls into my lap.  The OM1s are really more in line with what I can afford.

Pulling the thread further OT...  I can't figure GS out.  On one hand, I enjoy all of the classical / acoustic recording discussion over there since that's what I do, and there are quite a few members there who that is clearly their full time job.  Some of them, like Boojum and Jim Williams are quite helpful.  On the other hand, I am disappointed by users who don't have patience for those who are not already experts in this field, and/or who don't have the resources to get a hold of an 788T, a pair of M150s, etc. such as the comment Jon noted.

Then there's JWSound which I recently started reading again... yikes that's another universe over there.
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Offline voltronic

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Re: powering options for DPA4061 w/Microdots
« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2015, 11:58:50 PM »
Then there are the people who although they may get paid to record don't have a firm grasp of physics.  Not too many of those on Remote, but High End is a nightmare.

That's why I restrict myself to Remote when there - even the testy/impatient people at least seem to be intelligent.
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Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: powering options for DPA4061 w/Microdots
« Reply #27 on: July 09, 2015, 12:05:09 AM »
There are some other sphere making posts over there.  One guy bought predrlled craft balls and then used a 20mm bit to enlarge the hole.  The om1 has a 20mm body that drops down to accommodate a 10mm capsule.  I see some tapered 20mm drll bits.  Maybe there is one that has the right taper? 

I think GS has calmed down a bit lately.

 

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