Topic: My first record: could you give me some feedback?

[PaulCayard]

Hi guys,

on sunday I've taped my first gig and now I'm trying to understand what is wrong (or not) :-)
Could you give me some feedback? I'll try to share all the info about my record...

Gig: Bruce Springsteen, The River Tour, 2016-07-03. (NOTE: this record will never be shared because concerning a gig that will be official released on live.brucespringsteen.net. This is only a test for my rig)
Location: Milan (Italy), Meazza Stadium. Parterre/Public Admission/PA, midfield position on the left side of the stage.
Rig: AT853-C > CA-9200 > Sony M10 (Available but not used: AT853-SC, AT853-H)
CA-9200 setting: +15 dB
Sony M10 setting: near 4 (as level), 24bit, 96kHz

Track on test: The Rising

Splitted raw track (Audacity (32 bit) > Split > 24/96 flac): https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6770343/The%20Rising.flac
Normalized track (Audacity (32 bit) > Split > Stereo channels normalized independently > 16/44 flac): https://soundcloud.com/paulcayard/bruce-springsteen-the-river-tour-2016-07-03-milan-the-rising

Known issue:
- at the end of the track maybe I've moved my face away from the stack
- maybe I've swapped the channels (I didn't mark AT853 channels as left and right, so I put a temporary mark to find it after the gig. This mark went away, so I didn't know which mic I put on the left and which one was on the right. But it doesn't matter, this is only a test).
- channels have not the same sensitivity as showed here: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=176617

Question:
- I think that I taped with a too low level (mean at near -18 dB instead of -12 dB, peak at 12 dB), so during acoustic session level was low. I've attached a screenshot of audacity to show you the level of a sample (if there is a graph or data that is useful to this analysis I can try to post in this thread...). Maybe it was low due to windshear + stealth hat... Or maybe my mics were not well positioned...
The question is: during the next tape shall I rise the level on Sony M10 (5? 6?) or shall I mantain the level near the "unity gain" of that recorder (3/4)?

Thanks a lot for any contribution!

EDIT #1: P.S.: a special thanks to MLKLuke for a lot of advices in the last 6 months!

EDIT #2: Added a second sample track (Audacity (32 bit) > Split > Stereo channels normalized independently > 16/44 flac): https://soundcloud.com/paulcayard/bruce-springsteen-the-river-tour-2016-07-03-milan-because-the-night

[danlynch]

I think it sounds pretty good for an outdoor stadium show with modest stealth mics.   The problems are the distance from the sound source, the crowd, and the phasing from the outdoor elements.  There's not much you can do about any of those three, except of course to get yourself a better ticket ;^.

In terms of levels, remember that you can always boost in post-production.  Your levels are high enough to not introduce any noise in the post process, but you might want to get them a little higher live.  The other part of that axiom is that if your levels are too high live, you can't remove brickwalling. 

[jagraham]

At a quick listen this is a great first recording! Not a big Springsteen fan, but I've gathered that the sound quality at his shows isn't always the best. That said, I'm not the best judge of how great a Springsteen audience tape can be, but this isn't bad at all. Looks like a huge venue, not sure how packed the field was but if you think the audience noise is too much (I don't) the hypers could fix that (at the expense of some low end).

I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with your levels, but I personally like to run higher. Most will say that it's better to be cautious and run lower vs. higher. I know on the Tascam DR units I'm usually able to achieve higher levels safely, but maybe someone with more use of an M10 can chime in. Is the sample of the acoustic part of the show? Either way, recording at 24 bit gives you a little more room to amplify or normalize without adding unwanted noise.

Another possible cause of the levels being too low would be a bad or dying battery.

As you've noticed, if you move your head much it will affect the stereo image. If you use omnis or maybe the subcards you would probably see less of this, but I wouldn't recommend those in a venue that large.

[PaulCayard]

I think it sounds pretty good for an outdoor stadium show with modest stealth mics.
[...]

At a quick listen this is a great first recording!
[...]

Thanks a lot :-) I'll take care of your advices!

I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with your levels, but I personally like to run higher.

I've forgotten to say that CA-9200 setting are +0/+10/+15/+30/+35/+40 dB so I can't rise level with CA-9200 :-/ But I can do that by M10 :-)

Another possible cause of the levels being too low would be a bad or dying battery.

I used new batteries for both CA-9200 and M10 ;-)

[thunderbolt]

I think you did a nice job for your first time out. 

One tactic people sometimes use, if it isn't assigned seating (I'm sure that is not the case here), is to get close to one side of the PA--essentially point your mics towards the PA, not the band.  Yes, it would be mono (if the mix was stereo to begin with--some mixers only mix to mono).  However, you would get a higher signal (music) to noise (people, ambience) ratio.  In many situations using a more directional pattern (supercardioid) can help to reduce chatter and noise, but the technique's less forgiving WRT human error.

[PaulCayard]

Thanks boltman for the advise :-) I was in the PA (in Italy is called "Parterre") and I was more or less in front of the main left side stack (but not so close, I wasn't in the pit area) and I've tried to point the mics (AB pattern) to that stack.

[daspyknows]

I typically try and get approximately halfway between soundboard and stage dead center.  Impressive effort first time out though.  There have been tapers who have done it for many years making "excellent" recordings who don't do as well and aren't interested in improving their craft. 

[PaulCayard]

I typically try and get approximately halfway between soundboard and stage dead center.  Impressive effort first time out though.

Thanks a lot, I'm very happy. This result means that TS community is very very useful to learn how to tape :-)
Thanks for the advice of the position!

[rhinowing]

I typically try and get approximately halfway between soundboard and stage dead center.

seconding this, I find that being centrally located is crucial in producing a "live" sounding recording (at least with my cheapo mics)

[PaulCayard]

Thanks rhinowing!
Added a second sample track: https://soundcloud.com/paulcayard/bruce-springsteen-the-river-tour-2016-07-03-milan-because-the-night

[nulldogmas]

Agreed that this came out very well considering the recording environment (big room, relatively far from stage). Nice job!

On the matter of "unity gain," as an M10 user I'd say don't worry about it. I've successfully recorded with the gain wheel anywhere from 2.5 to 10, and I couldn't tell you after the fact which recordings were done at which setting. As others have noted, peaks at -12 dB aren't at all a problem when you're recording 24-bit, but if you'd wanted to bump up the gain on the M10 by a notch or two, that wouldn't have been a problem.

[jagraham]

Forgot to say in my first post, thanks for using The Rising, as it's one of the few Springsteen songs I really like! To be honest, I don't really like "The Boss" all that much, and I tried to become a fan for years since my mom loved him. Even saw him at Bonnaroo, and it's probably the only show where I've ever fallen asleep (due to it being my first huge fest, and not the music). I just don't like his songs or voice that much. However, I absolutely love The Rising and some other songs off that album.

[PaulCayard]

but if you'd wanted to bump up the gain on the M10 by a notch or two, that wouldn't have been a problem.

Perfect! I'll try it!

To be honest, I don't really like "The Boss" all that much

I want to reassure you: I will not share the whole three-hours-and-forty-five-minutes-show :-D :-D

[rhinowing]

Forgot to say in my first post, thanks for using The Rising, as it's one of the few Springsteen songs I really like! To be honest, I don't really like "The Boss" all that much, and I tried to become a fan for years since my mom loved him. Even saw him at Bonnaroo, and it's probably the only show where I've ever fallen asleep (due to it being my first huge fest, and not the music).

I also fell asleep during that show, due to a combination of heat stroke and party favors....woke up and he was playing Santa Claus is Coming to Town...very confusing...

[Jhurlbs81]

Sounds good!  Keep at it Paul!