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Author Topic: SPL to high or what went wrong  (Read 2164 times)

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Offline swordfish

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SPL to high or what went wrong
« on: July 27, 2016, 12:33:29 PM »
Taped a band from Chile last night and the guy at the board mentioned it will be loud tonight....since I wasn't able to insert a picture I moved it and 2 soundfiles to the cloud...

I never had an issue with the equipment/setup before...but the bass/drum is distorted even in segments where it should not be distorted at all.  During the show it sounded not that bad to my ears.... The Tinybox was fully loaded.

Thanks in advance

2 questions

1. What happened
2. Is there a chance to repair

the files and a photo can be downloaded here

Dateien (100 MB total)
Chico Trujillo 2016-07-26 partial.WAV
Chico Trujillo 2016-07-26 partial2.WAV
Chico Trujillo 2016-07-26.png

Available 'till

3. August 2016
Link to download

https://we.tl/3Z5nKyCS8L

Offline sveinpetter

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Re: SPL to high or what went wrong
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2016, 04:53:11 AM »
Id did some analyze in Reaper and  Peak level is -2.44 db in ch.1 and -5.40 in ch.2. Loudness Intergrated -24.7 LUFS in a range of 13.4LU. Maximun short-term -20.4 LUFS, maximum momentary -18.4 LUFS.
I am at work now, with bad speakers, but I can still hear what you write : distorted when not load at all.

Offline swordfish

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Re: SPL to high or what went wrong
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2016, 12:59:33 PM »
Id did some analyze in Reaper and  Peak level is -2.44 db in ch.1 and -5.40 in ch.2. Loudness Intergrated -24.7 LUFS in a range of 13.4LU. Maximun short-term -20.4 LUFS, maximum momentary -18.4 LUFS.
I am at work now, with bad speakers, but I can still hear what you write : distorted when not load at all.

thanks for the effort...I think this is one for the trash can, nevertheless I don't know what caused the issue....a friend of mine made a great Neil Young recording with the Tinybox last week and I never had an issue with mk 41, the only thing I can think of is the SPL...

Offline beatkilla

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Re: SPL to high or what went wrong
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2016, 01:10:01 PM »
Whats the gear used,mk41 ,tinybox,m10?

Offline swordfish

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Re: SPL to high or what went wrong
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2016, 01:32:58 PM »
Whats the gear used,mk41 ,tinybox,m10?

MK41 - Nbobs actives - Tinybox +18dB - Sony M10 Line in...set up I used for loud shows never had an issue...

the only thing I can think of that I set the Tinybox by mistake to low and the pad kinda brickwalled it...but what do I know...

Offline terabyte23

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Re: SPL to high or what went wrong
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2016, 03:14:50 PM »
What level setting were you using on the Tinybox?  I've found that I have to use the "low" setting for loud shows.  If I set the Tinybox to "medium" then the M10 dial is typically around 3, which you'd think would be good but results in brickwalling.  If I set the Tinybox to "low" the M10 dial will be at around 8 or 9, but I get a good recording with no brickwalling.  That has been my experience, and I've had to throw away some killer shows because I have made the "medium" mistake more than once.
AKG ck61/ck63 > Naiant couplings > Naiant Tinybox > M10
CA-14 cards/omnis > SP-SPSB-8 > M10

Offline Craig T

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Re: SPL to high or what went wrong
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2016, 03:21:13 PM »
For even moderately loud shows, you have to run the TB at "low" gain.  I too have been burned by the "med" gain setting.

Edit:  I should add that my TB v2.2 has "standard gain" (4/18/32) and provides 53V polarization for the caps.  I started out using the medium/+18 gain since that sounds reasonable for 99% shows given the rest of the rig.  All was good for awhile then I had a few brickwalled.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2016, 03:29:29 PM by Craig T »
Schoeps cmc6/4v / Line Audio CM3, OM1 / ADK A51 / Church Audio CA-14
Naiant Tinybox v2.2 / NBox(P) / Apogee Mini-MP / Church Audio ST9200 / CA-UGLY
Sony PCM-M10 / Tascam DR-70D

Offline swordfish

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Re: SPL to high or what went wrong
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2016, 12:53:44 AM »
What level setting were you using on the Tinybox?  I've found that I have to use the "low" setting for loud shows.  If I set the Tinybox to "medium" then the M10 dial is typically around 3, which you'd think would be good but results in brickwalling.  If I set the Tinybox to "low" the M10 dial will be at around 8 or 9, but I get a good recording with no brickwalling.  That has been my experience, and I've had to throw away some killer shows because I have made the "medium" mistake more than once.

The TB was set to mid gain and in the end I dialed in around 5...normally I don't attend very loud rock shows and I guess I have learned the lesson the hard way...

Offline swordfish

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Re: SPL to high or what went wrong
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2016, 12:58:36 AM »
For even moderately loud shows, you have to run the TB at "low" gain.  I too have been burned by the "med" gain setting.

Edit:  I should add that my TB v2.2 has "standard gain" (4/18/32) and provides 53V polarization for the caps.  I started out using the medium/+18 gain since that sounds reasonable for 99% shows given the rest of the rig.  All was good for awhile then I had a few brickwalled.

My TB has the same gain settings as yours....may I have to mention that I have the TB with the 4/18/32 dB gain switch and the on switch with high and low option...the low option provides a 10dB pad if I recall correct.

Usually I use the mid 18dB+ and the ON switch set to high and had only once brickwalling...

Offline trustthex

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Re: SPL to high or what went wrong
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2016, 02:40:25 AM »
So...  Here's something completely different in the same vein.  This is a sample from my (shitshow induced) R09 internals the other night at Panic!/Weezer in Dallas.  I had to pull the bass down about 6~10dB (mostly for the kick drum) and it still has this wub-wub-wub sound in places.  I will be recording from the same venue & similar location soon (hopefully) with better gear.  Did the bass just totally brickwall the R09? 

I am planning on using AT829s(SP-CMC-1)>BBox>R09 for upcoming shows... thoughts?


Thanks!!
Current Foolishness-
AT853c > 3-wire BB > LS10
AT853c > Tinybox > R-09

Other gear in my bag-
SP-CMC-1 (AT 829), ECM-717, Sharp MD-MS702
2x Teac ME-50 (C), AT ATR6250, SP-SPSB-2

Team TEXAS, Naiant, Jazz, Vinyl, moe.

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Offline terabyte23

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Re: SPL to high or what went wrong
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2016, 12:48:07 PM »
Did the bass just totally brickwall the R09?

Yes.  The R09 internals just can't handle that kind of SPL without distorting.  You'll be much better off with the SP-CMC-1 mics and a battery box.  I can't recall if the SP-CMC-1 mics need the low sensitivity mod (my SP-CMC-8 mics did).  Maybe someone else can answer that.
AKG ck61/ck63 > Naiant couplings > Naiant Tinybox > M10
CA-14 cards/omnis > SP-SPSB-8 > M10

Offline terabyte23

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Re: SPL to high or what went wrong
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2016, 12:56:42 PM »
My TB has the same gain settings as yours....may I have to mention that I have the TB with the 4/18/32 dB gain switch and the on switch with high and low option...the low option provides a 10dB pad if I recall correct.

Usually I use the mid 18dB+ and the ON switch set to high and had only once brickwalling...

I use my gear infrequently enough that I keep forgetting the difference between the high/low settings on the power switch.  Maybe I never really knew.

The http://naiant.com/tinybox-specification web page states that the 3-way power switch functions as a "high/low microphone power switch (to select between microphone power options or phantom power voltage).  When the power switch is configured as a high/low selector, the voltage supplied as the phantom or capsule polarization supply will switch between either +48V (phantom) and +54V (capsule polarization for active systems) on high and +8v or +16V on low, according to the required input configuration."

I'm not sure if I should be using the high or low position with my gear.  I guess "high" since I am using the Naiant "active" couplings with my AKG caps?
AKG ck61/ck63 > Naiant couplings > Naiant Tinybox > M10
CA-14 cards/omnis > SP-SPSB-8 > M10

Offline bombdiggity

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Re: SPL to high or what went wrong
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2016, 07:13:49 PM »
RE the Tinybox you do need the proper amplification level set at the selection switch or the signal can get baked at the pre-amp stage.  Most (all?) Tinyboxes have that light indicator (the charging light).  When you're running a show that also serves as a clip indicator (at least it does on mine).  If you're recording that light should be solid green.  If you see it blinking red when recording it is clipping internally.  I always run medium (and maybe every once in a while need high) but at a festi one of the loud stages was way too loud.  I saw the blinking light right away as they started and switched down to low.  Baked a few seconds before I figured it out but the rest was fine.   
Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline swordfish

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Re: SPL to high or what went wrong
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2016, 02:02:53 AM »
RE the Tinybox you do need the proper amplification level set at the selection switch or the signal can get baked at the pre-amp stage.  Most (all?) Tinyboxes have that light indicator (the charging light).  When you're running a show that also serves as a clip indicator (at least it does on mine).  If you're recording that light should be solid green.  If you see it blinking red when recording it is clipping internally.  I always run medium (and maybe every once in a while need high) but at a festi one of the loud stages was way too loud.  I saw the blinking light right away as they started and switched down to low.  Baked a few seconds before I figured it out but the rest was fine.

I have the TB in the pocket when I  >:D, but I will remove the gaffer tape and keep an eye on it....

Offline bombdiggity

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Re: SPL to high or what went wrong
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2016, 11:20:34 AM »
RE the Tinybox you do need the proper amplification level set at the selection switch or the signal can get baked at the pre-amp stage.  Most (all?) Tinyboxes have that light indicator (the charging light).  When you're running a show that also serves as a clip indicator (at least it does on mine).  If you're recording that light should be solid green.  If you see it blinking red when recording it is clipping internally.  I always run medium (and maybe every once in a while need high) but at a festi one of the loud stages was way too loud.  I saw the blinking light right away as they started and switched down to low.  Baked a few seconds before I figured it out but the rest was fine.

I have the TB in the pocket when I  >:D, but I will remove the gaffer tape and keep an eye on it....

It probably depends on where you run but you should be able to see it pretty quickly.  With mine I cover an edge and the front of the light with tape but the top is still open so I can catch a glimpse of it.  I have it on the chair or hold it (it's really rare I'm not seated at a show).  Never really felt good about putting it in a pocket since that may crimp or bend wires/connections. 

I think the rule of thumb for loud shows is to start on low and if you have levels on the recorder with that you're golden.  If you start out wrong you will bake whatever happens before you see it. 
Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

 

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