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Author Topic: Running 3 nak 300 cp-2> sd-302 advice  (Read 501 times)

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Offline jcable77

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Running 3 nak 300 cp-2> sd-302 advice
« on: February 16, 2017, 04:33:58 AM »
So I've been reading a lot of info from this board and other sources and put together what I'd like to do with the gear that now have. Before I start rambling I appreciate the wealth of knowledge that is TS. I recently purchased 3 minty new nak 300s in the yardsale. I'd like to run 3 Omni's into the SD 302>mini me>PMd 671. The question I have and from what I've read, if I set the center channel panned center on the 302 and run the center Omni maybe 3 to 6db lighter I'd be merely filling the left and right with a more full stereo image than just split Omni's? Obviously spacing would differ from venue to venue but maybe Gutbucket or someone with more experience with this set up could give some advice to SD levels, spacing, maybe running two cards as well din for festivals (also could use the dr-680) . Am I crazy to think I'll enjoy this 3 omni set up?

Offline aaronji

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Re: Running 3 nak 300 cp-2> sd-302 advice
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2017, 07:02:10 AM »
Unless the spacing between the two flanking omnis is wide enough to create a "hole" in the middle, I don't think you will gain much from a third omni in the center...


Offline kuba e

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Re: Running 3 nak 300 cp-2> sd-302 advice
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2017, 11:01:53 AM »
Jcable77, i am using dr680 with my naks. It is very easy setup and dr680 preamplifiers are very good, at least for naks. Remember to turn off phantom for naks. You cannot make good mix in concert. Record all tracks individually and mix it at home later.

Search this forum, you will find a lot of posts about 4 mics configuration, the same principles are valid for 3 microphones. Example here:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=6fd3d54abcf8afb077ea4d86936cb05d&topic=172679.0

« Last Edit: February 16, 2017, 11:09:24 AM by kuba e »

Offline Limit35

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Re: Running 3 nak 300 cp-2> sd-302 advice
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2017, 12:30:25 PM »

I've run CP-1s PAS and a center CP-2 into a DR680 and agree with Kuba about not mixing in concert. I could probably guess if I was going into a two channel mixer, but with our recorders and editing software now it is better to record the center and stereo pair separately and deal with levels later in my opinion. My omni center has varied quite a bit in dBs between recordings. I wouldn't have been wrong if I guessed the levels in concert, I just think it sounds a lot better if I can get the proper omni levels to add that right amount of air in post. I personally don't want much omni except for the bass it picks up and some space to fill in what the cards captured

I'm not sure three CP-2s would work that well on a stand. I use Naiant X-Xs with at least 1.3m spacing when I run an omni pair on a stand, three times that on stage. Try getting the cards as far apart as you can and use the omni in the center, or use the three cards PAS with center.

Offline jcable77

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Re: Running 3 nak 300 cp-2> sd-302 advice
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2017, 08:53:15 PM »
I'll probly try the two cp-1s split with the Omni centered first. See how that goes.

Offline Limit35

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Re: Running 3 nak 300 cp-2> sd-302 advice
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2017, 11:58:20 PM »
I'll probly try the two cp-1s split with the Omni centered first. See how that goes.

I like it, I have a couple chatty places near me and want to try three CP-1s sometime.

If you have the resources set up a stereo pair and try out the omni NAKS on the same stand and see what it sounds like, sometimes experimenting works and sometimes it doesn't. Or use the opening band and check it out during break. If it sounds too mono or just not the sound you want replace the caps on the outside NAKs. Stage lip with a good spread would work with all CP-2s depending on the performer.

Offline Walstib62

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Re: Running 3 nak 300 cp-2> sd-302 advice
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2017, 08:25:12 AM »
It completely depends on the setting. Indoors/outdoor. Room acoustics/crowd noise. There is no one setup that works in every situation.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Running 3 nak 300 cp-2> sd-302 advice
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2017, 09:36:10 AM »
I agree with the other posters.

Definitely record to the 680 to allow mixing by ear later, that's what leverages the advantage.  I made an on the fly 'guess mix' at a show last weekend for a video guy patching out, which sounded acceptable I guess, but the quick mix I arrived at upon getting home and adjusting via both headphones and speakers was quite different and far superior.

I always record with three mics at minimum these days.  Provides so much more flexibility to dial things in ideally later and fix problems. 

I'm at a trade show presently.. will get back to post more when I get a chance..
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations > virtual teleportation time-machine experience

"Narrow or widely spaced microphone configurations are preferred. It is well-known experience that pure coincidence microphone concepts are not able to produce a satisfying natural spatial impression, due to the lack of adequate interchannel temporal relations (time-of-arrival, phase, correlation)" -Günther Theile
"The mix of the Double M/S signals with a large A/B configuration of omnis results in the spacious sound that is often desired. This option also provides decorrelated low-frequency signals." -Helmut Wittek

Offline jcable77

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Re: Running 3 nak 300 cp-2> sd-302 advice
« Reply #8 on: Yesterday at 06:00:33 PM »
Gonna be recording a mostly instrumental jam type band Friday at stone church. Was thinking 3 omnis on stage split as wide as possible with two cards like ten feet back at the pole. I'm thinking the right use of the omnis in this case. Also have a board patch if there is any vocals which I don't think they sing too much.

Offline Limit35

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Re: Running 3 nak 300 cp-2> sd-302 advice
« Reply #9 on: Yesterday at 09:36:26 PM »
Gonna be recording a mostly instrumental jam type band Friday at stone church. Was thinking 3 omnis on stage split as wide as possible with two cards like ten feet back at the pole. I'm thinking the right use of the omnis in this case. Also have a board patch if there is any vocals which I don't think they sing too much.

I'd like to know how the CP-2s sound up there, if you could post an update that would be great. I've gone about 4m split on stage with Naiant omnis with X/Y 90* in the center. I was picking up mono PA/room/crowd with the outside omnis recording an Americana band. I thought it captured the tiny theater's sound well.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Running 3 nak 300 cp-2> sd-302 advice
« Reply #10 on: Today at 11:45:24 AM »
Here's some basics I've discovered using setups with three main microphone positions (which could either be 3 mics, or 4 mics if using an X/Y or M/S pair in the center)-

Conceptually (and in practice) I start from three omnis.  Three omnis are probably the most flexible arrangement of any in terms of spacing, as long as the room supports using omnis, which typically means outdoors unless setup on-stage or at the stage-lip.

An appropriate spacing between three microphone positions is much easier to achieve than the most appropriate spacing between two.  Partly because of the ability to fine tune the level of the center separately from the sides, and the ability to make that adjustment completely separately from the left/right balance.  Using an X/Y or M/S pair in the center makes that even less problematic, as that provides control over the stereo width and image blend of the center portion, as well as control over center level.

I generally shoot for a spacing between left/right omnis of about 1 meter minimum.   Using an X/Y or M/S pair in the center instead of a single mic in the center can help wider spacings work well.  I'm less hesitant to go over 2m wide with the Left/Right omnis if I'm using either a center omni or a center coincident pair.

The first place I substitute a directional microphone for an omni is in the center.  That's because the center is where I want upfront focused clarity in the playback image.  The L/R omnis extend the audience reaction, room ambiance, and stereophonic width outwards to the sides from that solid, clear center.  The further back the recording position is located, the more forwardly directional I'd like the center microphone to be.  These days I always use either a cardioid or supercardioid in the center, because even on-stage or at the stage-lip I want to attenuate the room ambiance and audience reaction from the center playback image as much as possible.  That keeps that valuable ambient stuff from competing for focus with the musical material, and allows for a better balance with more of it in the finished recording.  In any case, I'd almost always rather use three omnis than just two.

I never hesitate to turn that center directional microphone into a Mid/Side pair, as long as I have an extra recording channel and a figure-8 mic available.  If I had an small M/S or X/Y stereo mic I might use that in the center.

I prefer to use omnis as L/R when possible, but when recording indoors, I may want to switch the L/R mics to a directional pattern in an effort to push the direct/reverberant pickup ratio towards favoring whatever direct sound is available.  Combined with sufficient angle between the L/R mics, this change can also allow for less spacing between the L/R pair, making the setup more compact and easier to rig (even though a 3 channel setup is almost always going to be significantly wider than a 2 channel stereo setup). 

Using directional L/R mics, an appropriate balance needs to be found between L/R spacing and L/R angle.  If using less spacing between mics than one would for omnis, one needs to introduce more angle between microphones.  If you want to point the L/R mics directly at the stacks, you need pretty much the same spacing as using omnis, which might be appropriate if recording from the back of the room.

I did a medium sized club date for Karl Denson last month, using supercards as the L/R pair and a cardioid plus an bidirectional in the center.  I was next to the SBD, centered and about halfway back in the room.  I spaced the L/R supercards around 30" apart (the maximum my re-purposed mic bar would allow), with a 90 degree angle between them.  Each pointed 45 degrees off center, which was maybe 10 to 15 degrees outside of the stacks.  I would not want them angled any less with that limited spacing, otherwise the center mic and the L/R mics would be too close and not angled enough apart from each other.  We need sufficient difference information between each of the microphone positions, and that's achieved only via spacing and/or angle.

Along those lines, it can be helpful to consider your 3 mic setup as the combination of two separate 2-channel stereo setups.  In my Karl Denson example, the left supercard and center cardioid formed a 2-channel pair with a spacing of about 15" and an angle between them of 45 degrees.  Likewise for the right supercard and center card.  That doesn't seem like very much mic angle for that spacing and it isn't (compare to DIN at 12"/90-degrees).  I would have used a bit more spacing, but having maxed out what I had available, I angled the mics a bit more than the outside edge of POS.

An optional fig-8 making the center microphone into M/S pair is gravy.   Ignore it when figuring the spacing and angle of the L/R mics.  At mixdown time, treat the center microhone as a single center mic (all Mid, no Side) when finding the most appropriate balance between Center and Left/Right.  Once you've dialed that in to your liking (balance the Left/Right pair in isolation before introducing Center), play with the Mid/Side to widen the center a bit while listening for the smoothest blend between the center and the left/right edges.  If using an X/Y  pair in the center, you can do the same by making a Mid/Side stereo-width adjustment on the X/Y pair.  Start with all Mid, then dial in the center width to taste.  If that's too much hassle, just bring up the X/Y pair in tandem to fill the center at mixdown, and maybe err towards using less angle rather than more between mics in your center X/Y setup.  90 degrees is probably okay.

It is advantageous to think of your microphone setup and your mix-down choices in terms of stereo-center and stereo-width more than in terms of left/right-stereo.  In terms of Left/Right, pretty much all we can do is tweak things to get the balance centered appropriately.  In choosing the most appropriate balance between center and sides, between direct and diffuse, between narrow and wide, and the blend between those things, we are presented with far more flexible aesthetic choices.

The third (or 4th) mic gives us freedom!
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations > virtual teleportation time-machine experience

"Narrow or widely spaced microphone configurations are preferred. It is well-known experience that pure coincidence microphone concepts are not able to produce a satisfying natural spatial impression, due to the lack of adequate interchannel temporal relations (time-of-arrival, phase, correlation)" -Günther Theile
"The mix of the Double M/S signals with a large A/B configuration of omnis results in the spacious sound that is often desired. This option also provides decorrelated low-frequency signals." -Helmut Wittek

 

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