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Author Topic: master md's>analog out>24 bit???  (Read 9728 times)

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Offline Brett S.

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master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« on: December 16, 2006, 02:57:00 AM »
Used a sony md for a while w/my rig, along w/ patching. Obviously the patching stuff has better sources so those discs aren't an issue!

I have some stuff which I recorded w/md as deck.

Since I have to use analog out to transfer, is it possible to do md>analog> into ua5 or audiophile24/96 as soundcards + SF or Wavelab  and increse the quality of the recording to 24 bit.

I know Mds are usually 16 bit, 44.1 COMPRESSED audio, but since it is analog only out (on most consumer mds, do not have access to pro deck) just like old cassettes can I go analog>24 bit>edit etc????

Or is this just a huge waste of time???? 
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sml42

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2006, 06:01:54 AM »
Firstly, +t for wanting to get the best possible quality out of your recordings. That's definately the right attitude!

Personally I don't think you'll gain anything... you can't magic an extra 8 bits of quality out of thin air... as you rightly point out MD is only 16-bit.

One option to maybe think about: I bought a sony MDS JE-470 specifically to help a friend transfer a MD master. I bought it off ebay, and it was really quite inexpensive. Despite not having optical out, this unit had space on the circuit board for an optical out connector (in fact it turned out the same circuit board was used for the higher-end MDS JE-770). Once I had the components it was an evenings work to drill a hole in the rear panel, solder the bits on AND do the transfer. I've been meaning to write more about this for a while... if there is interest let me know.

Having said all that, if analogue is your only option right now, it makes perfect sense to use the best quality gear in the chain you can. The ua5 sounds like a good choice to me. Just run everything at 16-bit and be happy.

cheers,
stephen

Offline Brett S.

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2006, 01:10:37 PM »
Thanks!
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Offline dunebug81

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2006, 06:54:05 PM »
I can upload the recordings to my computer via usb and burn a DVD with flacs and send them back to you.  That should save you $50 or so depending on the deck you buy.  Maybe put a few stamps or a buck in there for return postage.
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Offline Brett S.

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2006, 01:43:16 AM »
"I can upload the recordings to my computer via usb and burn a DVD with flacs and send them back to you."

Thanks! I'll keep you in mind.  Just started digging through them all, so I 'll have to see what I have that is worth all the trouble.....

Thanks for all your input!
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Offline ttrego2003

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2006, 09:17:07 AM »
I have run old md's into my ua-5 > jb3,but was not happy with all of the quality of most of them

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2006, 09:38:43 AM »
I can upload the recordings to my computer via usb

It sounds like you're talking about Hi-MD?

I'm guessing the original poster was not using Hi-MD, otherwise they would have just transferred via usb already! (my rationale: I was led to believe all Hi-MD devices had a usb connector... correct me if I'm wrong).

You cannot use a Hi-MD player to transfer non-Hi-MD media over usb:
http://www.minidisc.org/hi-md_faq.html


Edit: I did a bit of searching, at least some Hi-MD devices can upload std-MD media (e.g. MZ-RH1). Sorry for the misinformation,

best regards,
stephen
« Last Edit: December 17, 2006, 09:49:27 AM by just sml »

Offline dunebug81

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2006, 10:15:51 AM »
Yes the new RH1 (which I have) will upload anything recorded on a MD disc...prerecorded....scms....whatever.  Its pretty nice that sony "unlocked" all that stuff.  Its a pretty quick upload too, it takes about 10 min or so to upload and convert, to wav, an 80 min recording to the computer.  I uploaded about 300 recordings over the span of about a month and they all uploaded flawlessly.
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Offline nardo

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2006, 02:06:48 PM »
Yes the new RH1 (which I have) will upload anything recorded on a MD disc...prerecorded....scms....whatever.  Its pretty nice that sony "unlocked" all that stuff.  Its a pretty quick upload too, it takes about 10 min or so to upload and convert, to wav, an 80 min recording to the computer.  I uploaded about 300 recordings over the span of about a month and they all uploaded flawlessly.
Before you get too excited I suggest you run a frequency analysis on those legacy MD transfers done with the MZ-RH1. I was really fucking pissed... Now I'm back to using my MDS-JB980QS for real-time transfers again when necessary.

Offline dunebug81

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2006, 02:12:23 PM »
Yes the new RH1 (which I have) will upload anything recorded on a MD disc...prerecorded....scms....whatever.  Its pretty nice that sony "unlocked" all that stuff.  Its a pretty quick upload too, it takes about 10 min or so to upload and convert, to wav, an 80 min recording to the computer.  I uploaded about 300 recordings over the span of about a month and they all uploaded flawlessly.
Before you get too excited I suggest you run a frequency analysis on those legacy MD transfers done with the MZ-RH1. I was really fucking pissed... Now I'm back to using my MDS-JB980QS for real-time transfers again when necessary.

Why?
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Offline nardo

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2006, 05:14:57 PM »
Yes the new RH1 (which I have) will upload anything recorded on a MD disc...prerecorded....scms....whatever.  Its pretty nice that sony "unlocked" all that stuff.  Its a pretty quick upload too, it takes about 10 min or so to upload and convert, to wav, an 80 min recording to the computer.  I uploaded about 300 recordings over the span of about a month and they all uploaded flawlessly.
Before you get too excited I suggest you run a frequency analysis on those legacy MD transfers done with the MZ-RH1. I was really fucking pissed... Now I'm back to using my MDS-JB980QS for real-time transfers again when necessary.

Why?
The legacyMD>RH1>usb transfers via SonicStage (any version) cut off at around 15kHz - completely, in most cases. The various ATRAC DSP types of stand-alone decks ((Type-S in case of my deck) will get you better quality transfers, in my opinion this is definitely worth the extra time, I found this particularly noticeable with SP recordings and even more so with ones that were done outdoor (don't know why but those just sounded very bad when transferred via the RH1). The spectrum of the WAV is also different even from a quick glimpse.

Offline dunebug81

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2006, 06:07:02 PM »
Yes the new RH1 (which I have) will upload anything recorded on a MD disc...prerecorded....scms....whatever.  Its pretty nice that sony "unlocked" all that stuff.  Its a pretty quick upload too, it takes about 10 min or so to upload and convert, to wav, an 80 min recording to the computer.  I uploaded about 300 recordings over the span of about a month and they all uploaded flawlessly.
Before you get too excited I suggest you run a frequency analysis on those legacy MD transfers done with the MZ-RH1. I was really fucking pissed... Now I'm back to using my MDS-JB980QS for real-time transfers again when necessary.

Why?
The legacyMD>RH1>usb transfers via SonicStage (any version) cut off at around 15kHz - completely, in most cases. The various ATRAC DSP types of stand-alone decks ((Type-S in case of my deck) will get you better quality transfers, in my opinion this is definitely worth the extra time, I found this particularly noticeable with SP recordings and even more so with ones that were done outdoor (don't know why but those just sounded very bad when transferred via the RH1). The spectrum of the WAV is also different even from a quick glimpse.

Well thats good to know.  I dont care enough to go back and re-do transfers but thanks for the info.  I wonder why SS does that?
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Offline Brett S.

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2006, 11:30:26 PM »
hmmm
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Offline dunebug81

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2006, 01:21:44 AM »
Is there any documentation on SS cutting off frequencies?  im curious to see what else has been said about this.
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Offline nardo

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2006, 06:05:34 AM »
Is there any documentation on SS cutting off frequencies?  im curious to see what else has been said about this.
It's not SS that does it, after re-reading my earlier post I can see where that misconception is coming from, sorry aobut that. It's Sony's ATRAC codec for the pc. Doesn't matter which program you use, either (HiMD Renderer, etc.). Some moderator on the German minidiscforum said that when you upload to the PC the ATRAC files are converted to ATRAC3+ before they are converted to WAV, might only be applicable to SP uploads but LP2 doesn't look that great to me, either. I don't really care about 'why' it does it, I just know that my deck transfers sound like night and day compared to the USB uploads.

Offline dunebug81

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2006, 08:55:06 AM »
Well thats just stupid.  I'll have to do a side by side test and see what I can see.
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Offline nardo

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2006, 09:10:51 AM »
Well thats just stupid.  I'll have to do a side by side test and see what I can see.
Yeah, it's a joke, they should at least warn people. I'm not 100% sure on that but I think I read that there is no proper ATRAC codec available for the computer so the re-encoding is Sony's way around that. Even if it were working properly you'd get slightly better results by using a standalone deck that has DSP.

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2006, 09:47:24 AM »
I think I read that there is no proper ATRAC codec available for the computer so the re-encoding is Sony's way around that.

That sounds vaguely familiar.

Certainly, any transcoding (i.e. ATRAC > ATRAC3) will introduce extra lossiness. Kind of like going wav>mp3>wav>mp3 I would imagine. I wonder if that's what's going on here?

The question is, where is the transcoding happening? If it's happening in the player itself before hitting the pc, well there's not a lot you can do about that. If it's happening on the pc, well then perhaps an updat to SS could avoid the transcode, and just decode ATRAC>WAV and we'd all be happy? Hmm... I wonder...

+t for this info though, I haven't seen this discussed anywhere else on the web.

Offline Brett S.

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2006, 01:38:00 AM »
which brings us back to........

How about analog out into pre,adc,soundcard of choice????

You have the original md compression, plus the analog transfer as far as lossy goes

Is this better then adding more compression, plus noise via the way being discussed?????
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Offline nardo

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2006, 04:46:29 AM »
which brings us back to........

How about analog out into pre,adc,soundcard of choice????

You have the original md compression, plus the analog transfer as far as lossy goes

Is this better then adding more compression, plus noise via the way being discussed?????
Just get someone to do the transfer via coaxial/optical-out using an appropriate stand-alone deck.

By the way, Sony seems as if they are slowly but surely reacting to this issue, the newest SonicStage (4.2) has DSEE* which isn't really a solution to the problem but at least an attempt to improve on the current state. It is for computer playback only, though.

* (from Sony): DSEE is a high-frequency completion technology developed by Sony that improves the quality of compressed audio and adds back in high frequencies that are often lost when audio is compressed. The resulting audio is closer to the original, more natural, and offers a wider sense of space.

Offline Liquid Drum

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2006, 08:24:32 PM »
This only happens to normal MD's right??

I'm using Hi-MD and I transfer via USB. So far, I've had no problems - the audio sounds the same as on the MD, so I don't think it compresses anymore than it already has.

I believe that I'm going from MD (Atrac, Hi-SP mode) > PC (Wav.) The frequency graphs look fine to me (no cut-off at 15).

I don't see why it would go from atrac > atrac3+ - just doesn't make sense to me.
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Offline ThudS

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2007, 02:43:48 PM »
....

I don't see why it would go from atrac > atrac3+ - just doesn't make sense to me.

Unless you've forgotten to turn that option off in SonicStage?

Offline boojum

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2007, 03:05:14 PM »
This was just covered in another thread.  It was also researched on minidisc.org and discovered to not be true.  A fellow there xferred his files and checked the file(s) in Adobe Audition and saw no degradation as has been described.  Once again, one test is worth a thousand opinions.  Use the RH1 to U/L all your legacy MD's with no fear of having them degraded.

As for saving them as 24 bit; well, if you care to manipulate them on the PC I understand it is a better way to do it, in 24 bit.  It will not improve the sound but will add fewer artifacts during manipulation.  You will have to resample and dither back to 16 bit.

Cheers
« Last Edit: August 19, 2007, 03:07:38 PM by boojum »
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Offline westkc3

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2007, 03:39:08 PM »
It's been a pain but I've used the optical out on my Sony MDS JE-520 into the optical in of one of my H120s.  I still have about 50 to complete of about 260.  I don't have SoundStage as these were recorded with a Sharp MD so I had to go realtime.  Regardless of the time it's taken me, I'm still very happy I made the switch from MD.

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2007, 12:12:15 PM »
This was just covered in another thread.  It was also researched on minidisc.org and discovered to not be true.  A fellow there xferred his files and checked the file(s) in Adobe Audition and saw no degradation as has been described.  Once again, one test is worth a thousand opinions.  Use the RH1 to U/L all your legacy MD's with no fear of having them degraded.

As for saving them as 24 bit; well, if you care to manipulate them on the PC I understand it is a better way to do it, in 24 bit.  It will not improve the sound but will add fewer artifacts during manipulation.  You will have to resample and dither back to 16 bit.

Cheers
I seriously wish I could believe this because it would save us all a lot of time. Did you read my posts carefully? http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,76899.msg1027426.html#msg1027426
I never said SP/LP2 files are being converted to ATRAC3+ as a standard or as an option that I accidentally might have selected (I surely didn't), SS does never inform you about this step, when you convert to WAV your output files are .WAV but they have been converted to ATRAC3+ (no idea on the bitrate) prior to being converted to .WAV, apparently that is the current workaround for the ATRAC-for-the-PC codec as was stated by someone on the German minidisc forum.
This discussion has nothing to do with HiMD recordings, transfers of those are all lossless and no one has claimed otherwise anywhere, just to make this clear once and for all (not saying anyone in this topic did say so, just trying to keep the information as straight as possible in here).

I've done frequency analysis and spectral analysis on files transferred via standalone deck (TOSlink > TOSlink connection) and compared them to the RH1>USB transfers and there were obvious differences, referred to as cut-offs in prior posts, most noticeably on SP recordings, not so bad with LP2 recordings (which all seem to have drop-offs at around 16kHz, as is obvious since the bitrate is really low, 128kbps, I think). You might want to give this a try yourself if you own a deck - I also read some of the minidisc.org discussion and couldn't open the attachment, other than that I just saw someone who "believed" something. Again, try this for yourself and post the results, I'd love to see a new version of SS/the ATRAC codec handle this differently. I'm on 4.2 still afair (am at work right now so can't check).
Shortly after this was being discussed on ts.com the DSEE feature was introduced to SonicStage (coincidence?), it adds something similiar to DSP to the playback of files, thereby making them sound/appear fuller than they were in the first place. So you might get even different results when playing back your .oma in SS and recording the digital output of your soundcard (internal or external) than when doing a straight transfer via USB or via a deck.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2007, 12:13:52 PM by nardo »

Offline boojum

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2007, 09:54:53 PM »
I wish you could believe it, too.  But you choose not too.

Cheers
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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2007, 08:47:17 AM »
I would go on ebay and try to find a stand alone deck with an optical output.

Try to find one contemporaneous to your recorder...Some of the older ones dont read the netMD era stuff - Double check compatibility with the various recording modes...

A friend who hits a lot of bluegrass shows broke his MD - I set him up with a "new" one...I made damn sure I bought him one that only recorded in SP mode(Sony MZ-R37). I also hooked him up with a standalone with a digital output(Sony MDS-101 - i think)...less than 100 bucks total for both pieces.

Now if he makes a recording I want - I go Standalone (optical) > JB3...realtime - but at least its a "digital" transfer - (I wouldn't be surpised if there is an A/D step in there...rather than an software based ATRAC>WAV conversion.) Also makes it easy for him to dump it down to his stand alone CD burner.

I prefer this approach to any "re-recording" way of transferring...

Offline taper420

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2007, 05:51:25 PM »
Magic wands > magic box > magic bucket

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2007, 08:17:17 PM »


 I go Standalone (optical) > JB3...realtime - but at least its a "digital" transfer - (I wouldn't be surpised if there is an A/D step in there...rather than an software based ATRAC>WAV conversion.)

Why would there be an AD step here? Your passing a digital signal to a digital recording AFAIK. I could be wrong, but I think this is the best way to go if you are starting with a "normal" non-HI MD recorded in the highest old school md quality ???

Im planning on doing a bunch of transfers via optical out on a MD player>iriver h120>USB to HD in the next week or so specifically because I dont want to go 1/8th>sound card via analog due to the bypassing of the additional A/D conversion. I wouldnt even bother if there is an AD conversion both ways. 
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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2007, 11:22:10 PM »
The MDS JE-470 mod instructions can be found here:

http://www.mtsu.edu/~hhw2b/470mod.html

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #30 on: August 22, 2007, 08:51:15 AM »


 I go Standalone (optical) > JB3...realtime - but at least its a "digital" transfer - (I wouldn't be surpised if there is an A/D step in there...rather than an software based ATRAC>WAV conversion.)

Why would there be an AD step here? Your passing a digital signal to a digital recording AFAIK. I could be wrong, but I think this is the best way to go if you are starting with a "normal" non-HI MD recorded in the highest old school md quality ???

It was rank speculation!

Well - yes it is a digital signal - but do we know for sure that process that produced that signal is ATRAC > WAV? Just speculating...I dont have an link - only a recollection of someone saying this once...it might take more computing power to do a software based conversion? MIght have been easier just implement a ADAD process...

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #31 on: August 22, 2007, 09:35:40 AM »


 I go Standalone (optical) > JB3...realtime - but at least its a "digital" transfer - (I wouldn't be surpised if there is an A/D step in there...rather than an software based ATRAC>WAV conversion.)

Why would there be an AD step here? Your passing a digital signal to a digital recording AFAIK. I could be wrong, but I think this is the best way to go if you are starting with a "normal" non-HI MD recorded in the highest old school md quality ???

It was rank speculation!

Well - yes it is a digital signal - but do we know for sure that process that produced that signal is ATRAC > WAV? Just speculating...I dont have an link - only a recollection of someone saying this once...it might take more computing power to do a software based conversion? MIght have been easier just implement a ADAD process...

Going optical out from a standalone to jb3 involves converting the ATRAC to WAV essentially a digital interpreter, some might consider this a D2D I guess.  The difference between doing this and transferring the ATRAC via USB to a computer is that in the later method you are using a different ATRAC to WAV algorithm.  It seems most people prefer the D2D sound of the standalone unit over the software route.  I don't think anyone has done a detailed comparison of the standalone algorithm verses the software algorithm, so it's really up to your ears what you prefer.  Chances are the two algorithms are not written the same and will interpret an ATRAC file differently. 

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #32 on: August 23, 2007, 09:36:16 AM »
This was just covered in another thread.  It was also researched on minidisc.org and discovered to not be true.  A fellow there xferred his files and checked the file(s) in Adobe Audition and saw no degradation as has been described.  Once again, one test is worth a thousand opinions.  Use the RH1 to U/L all your legacy MD's with no fear of having them degraded.

As for saving them as 24 bit; well, if you care to manipulate them on the PC I understand it is a better way to do it, in 24 bit.  It will not improve the sound but will add fewer artifacts during manipulation.  You will have to resample and dither back to 16 bit.

Cheers
I seriously wish I could believe this because it would save us all a lot of time. Did you read my posts carefully? http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,76899.msg1027426.html#msg1027426
I never said SP/LP2 files are being converted to ATRAC3+ as a standard or as an option that I accidentally might have selected (I surely didn't), SS does never inform you about this step, when you convert to WAV your output files are .WAV but they have been converted to ATRAC3+ (no idea on the bitrate) prior to being converted to .WAV, apparently that is the current workaround for the ATRAC-for-the-PC codec as was stated by someone on the German minidisc forum.
This discussion has nothing to do with HiMD recordings, transfers of those are all lossless and no one has claimed otherwise anywhere, just to make this clear once and for all (not saying anyone in this topic did say so, just trying to keep the information as straight as possible in here).

I've done frequency analysis and spectral analysis on files transferred via standalone deck (TOSlink > TOSlink connection) and compared them to the RH1>USB transfers and there were obvious differences, referred to as cut-offs in prior posts, most noticeably on SP recordings, not so bad with LP2 recordings (which all seem to have drop-offs at around 16kHz, as is obvious since the bitrate is really low, 128kbps, I think). You might want to give this a try yourself if you own a deck - I also read some of the minidisc.org discussion and couldn't open the attachment, other than that I just saw someone who "believed" something. Again, try this for yourself and post the results, I'd love to see a new version of SS/the ATRAC codec handle this differently. I'm on 4.2 still afair (am at work right now so can't check).
Shortly after this was being discussed on ts.com the DSEE feature was introduced to SonicStage (coincidence?), it adds something similiar to DSP to the playback of files, thereby making them sound/appear fuller than they were in the first place. So you might get even different results when playing back your .oma in SS and recording the digital output of your soundcard (internal or external) than when doing a straight transfer via USB or via a deck.

Hey nardo,

+T for researching this topic!
I'd be really grateful if you could take screen shots of the side-by-side analysis you did (optical realtime tranfer vs. RH1>USB>SS). Why don't you post your findings here: http://forums.minidisc.org/index.php?s=&showtopic=19709&view=findpost&p=125800

It would be really interesting to hear what the guys at Minidisc.org has to say about your results, if you descibe your method in detail.
Their theory is that you didn't highlighting the entire waveform in the edit window, clicking "scan" in the frequency analysis window. This is what caused the erroneous analysis.

Thanks,

Jan
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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #33 on: August 23, 2007, 11:15:31 AM »
This was just covered in another thread.  It was also researched on minidisc.org and discovered to not be true.  A fellow there xferred his files and checked the file(s) in Adobe Audition and saw no degradation as has been described.  Once again, one test is worth a thousand opinions.  Use the RH1 to U/L all your legacy MD's with no fear of having them degraded.

As for saving them as 24 bit; well, if you care to manipulate them on the PC I understand it is a better way to do it, in 24 bit.  It will not improve the sound but will add fewer artifacts during manipulation.  You will have to resample and dither back to 16 bit.

Cheers
I seriously wish I could believe this because it would save us all a lot of time. Did you read my posts carefully? http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,76899.msg1027426.html#msg1027426
I never said SP/LP2 files are being converted to ATRAC3+ as a standard or as an option that I accidentally might have selected (I surely didn't), SS does never inform you about this step, when you convert to WAV your output files are .WAV but they have been converted to ATRAC3+ (no idea on the bitrate) prior to being converted to .WAV, apparently that is the current workaround for the ATRAC-for-the-PC codec as was stated by someone on the German minidisc forum.
This discussion has nothing to do with HiMD recordings, transfers of those are all lossless and no one has claimed otherwise anywhere, just to make this clear once and for all (not saying anyone in this topic did say so, just trying to keep the information as straight as possible in here).

I've done frequency analysis and spectral analysis on files transferred via standalone deck (TOSlink > TOSlink connection) and compared them to the RH1>USB transfers and there were obvious differences, referred to as cut-offs in prior posts, most noticeably on SP recordings, not so bad with LP2 recordings (which all seem to have drop-offs at around 16kHz, as is obvious since the bitrate is really low, 128kbps, I think). You might want to give this a try yourself if you own a deck - I also read some of the minidisc.org discussion and couldn't open the attachment, other than that I just saw someone who "believed" something. Again, try this for yourself and post the results, I'd love to see a new version of SS/the ATRAC codec handle this differently. I'm on 4.2 still afair (am at work right now so can't check).
Shortly after this was being discussed on ts.com the DSEE feature was introduced to SonicStage (coincidence?), it adds something similiar to DSP to the playback of files, thereby making them sound/appear fuller than they were in the first place. So you might get even different results when playing back your .oma in SS and recording the digital output of your soundcard (internal or external) than when doing a straight transfer via USB or via a deck.

Hey nardo,

+T for researching this topic!
I'd be really grateful if you could take screen shots of the side-by-side analysis you did (optical realtime tranfer vs. RH1>USB>SS). Why don't you post your findings here: http://forums.minidisc.org/index.php?s=&showtopic=19709&view=findpost&p=125800

It would be really interesting to hear what the guys at Minidisc.org has to say about your results, if you descibe your method in detail.
Their theory is that you didn't highlighting the entire waveform in the edit window, clicking "scan" in the frequency analysis window. This is what caused the erroneous analysis.

Thanks,

Jan
Highlight a waveform? I used AnalFreq for that, it's a realtime analysation software, you can "watch" the frequency spectrum. I did spectral view using CEP, EAC and Wavelab but was mostly interested in the frequency analysis. I am at work at the moment and probably won't be able to take screenshots until tomorrow. I'll try and get one off an SP and an LP2 show and will at least post them here if not over at minidisc.org, too.

A little personal tidbit, I was extremely excited over being able to transfer legacy MDs faster than real-time using the RH1. Then one of my friends posted one of his LP2 masters to a torrent site - and the torrent was promptly banned for being "mp3 sourced". That's why I even started looking into this. The show (a Living Colour recording) did look perfectly fine when transferred via my MDS-JB980 deck.

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #34 on: August 23, 2007, 12:50:28 PM »
Have you tried posting your transfer of Living Colour???
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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #35 on: August 24, 2007, 05:12:06 AM »
Highlight a waveform? I used AnalFreq for that, it's a realtime analysation software, you can "watch" the frequency spectrum. I did spectral view using CEP, EAC and Wavelab but was mostly interested in the frequency analysis. I am at work at the moment and probably won't be able to take screenshots until tomorrow. I'll try and get one off an SP and an LP2 show and will at least post them here if not over at minidisc.org, too.

A little personal tidbit, I was extremely excited over being able to transfer legacy MDs faster than real-time using the RH1. Then one of my friends posted one of his LP2 masters to a torrent site - and the torrent was promptly banned for being "mp3 sourced". That's why I even started looking into this. The show (a Living Colour recording) did look perfectly fine when transferred via my MDS-JB980 deck.

Hi again nardo,

I get the impression the guys at minidisc.org are using either Adobe Audition/CEP or Audacity for their frequency analysis screenshots. Hence the reference to "highlighting the waveform".
I'm extremely excited about the possibility too. I've got a deck with optical out, but I found too tedious with realtime transfer of 200+ hours of MD masters. Under the current circumstances, I'm hesitant to shell out $350 for a RH1 only to use for legacy transfers, if I can't be sure that it's superior.

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #36 on: August 24, 2007, 07:58:32 AM »
Highlight a waveform? I used AnalFreq for that, it's a realtime analysation software, you can "watch" the frequency spectrum. I did spectral view using CEP, EAC and Wavelab but was mostly interested in the frequency analysis. I am at work at the moment and probably won't be able to take screenshots until tomorrow. I'll try and get one off an SP and an LP2 show and will at least post them here if not over at minidisc.org, too.

A little personal tidbit, I was extremely excited over being able to transfer legacy MDs faster than real-time using the RH1. Then one of my friends posted one of his LP2 masters to a torrent site - and the torrent was promptly banned for being "mp3 sourced". That's why I even started looking into this. The show (a Living Colour recording) did look perfectly fine when transferred via my MDS-JB980 deck.

Hi again nardo,

I get the impression the guys at minidisc.org are using either Adobe Audition/CEP or Audacity for their frequency analysis screenshots. Hence the reference to "highlighting the waveform".
I'm extremely excited about the possibility too. I've got a deck with optical out, but I found too tedious with realtime transfer of 200+ hours of MD masters. Under the current circumstances, I'm hesitant to shell out $350 for a RH1 only to use for legacy transfers, if I can't be sure that it's superior.

/Jan
I used CEP this time, highlighted the entire wav, opened the Frequency Analysis and hit "Scan". The difference seems to be less obvious compared to e.g. AnalFreq where you can see in real-time that there are a lot more peaks in the deck-transfer as well as more "happening" in the frequencies above 14kHz, there's not just a constant amount of noise/fuzz in case you were wondering.

Alright, first pic is a Keith Caputo (rock) show, Sanken COS-11s>Sharp MD recorded outdoors in SP mode, JB980QS TOSlink transfer:

Same recording but transferred via RH1, converted to WAV using HiMD Renderer:


Now I understand that in the SP ATRAC there won't be much info recorded above 14-15 kHz, yet there is a difference in the freq analysis (even though at very low db levels - maybe there is some kind of low-pass filter at those higher frequencies to "clean up" the sound a little and get rid of what could be considered mostly useless information? doesn't change the fact that it seems to alter the sound) and when playing back these files the RH1 does seem, to my ears, thinner, or sterile even. The bass seems less pronounced than when transferred via standalone-deck, which is actually weird since the low frequencies do look pretty much the same in both ways of transferring but my ears tell me otherwise, I don't notice much of a difference in the higher frequencies or even the mids when listening to these files.

And like I said before, much less of a difference with LP2 recordings, both when looking at the frequency analysis as well as when listening back. This is from a Living Colour recording, outdoors, recorded using AT831b>Sharp MD, first pic is the deck transfer:

Here's the same recording transferred via RH1:


Any thoughts where those slight differences could stem from? Since both are digital transfers I would expect them to be even closer than they are.

Have you tried posting your transfer of Living Colour???
I haven't, no, he only had me transfer one song for comparison reasons, at the moment I only have that saved here with me but no worries the taper does plan on torrenting it (again, as a deck transfer) at some point.

<EDIT> I used the [img]-tag for the images but apparently they don't show up in my post, hence attached them to this post.</EDIT>
« Last Edit: August 24, 2007, 08:05:34 AM by nardo »

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #37 on: August 24, 2007, 09:27:08 AM »
...
and when playing back these files the RH1 does seem, to my ears, thinner, or sterile even. ...

Wouldn't playback through the RH1 be influenced by the onboard amp.

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #38 on: August 24, 2007, 09:50:02 AM »
...
and when playing back these files the RH1 does seem, to my ears, thinner, or sterile even. ...

Wouldn't playback through the RH1 be influenced by the onboard amp.
Should read "and when playing back these files the ones transferred via the RH1 does seem, to my ears, thinner, or sterile even."
I'm always listening to the transferred WAV files through the same exact stereo setup, not headphones.

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #39 on: September 01, 2007, 06:45:05 AM »
As far as I understand...  Sony's DSP (Digital Signal Processor) Type-R, produces the highest sound quality possible from an SP recording during playback.  DSP Type-S (which also retains Type-R), produces the highest sound quality possible from an MDLP (2 or 4) recording during playback.  So given that, I would tend to believe that the analog out of an MD player with DSP Type-R/S (depending what mode you're transferring) would provide a higher quality sound than a digital transfer (optical out or USB).  So... you may lose a little by transferring analog output, but the actual sound will be better.  That is what the DSP chips are for!  I know we all want digital outs, but with legacy discs and a DSP Type-S player...  that's as good as it's gonna get!  Unless Sony comes out with something better!!!  Just don't transfer while the MD's EQ is active!  If you're gonna EQ......  do it on the computer!!!

As far as recording goes with ATRAC compression...  ATRAC is used for SP mode, ATRAC3 is used for MDLP (2/4) mode, and ATRAC3plus is used for Hi-SP & Hi-LP mode.

Never done a comparison, so I may be wrong...  but I don't think so!!! :nightfevah:   
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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #40 on: September 01, 2007, 07:12:30 PM »
So given that, I would tend to believe that the analog out of an MD player with DSP Type-R/S (depending what mode you're transferring) would provide a higher quality sound than a digital transfer (optical out or USB).

Disagree.

Where does the analogue out  come from? It comes from some analogue-to-digital converter inside the player. Where does the digital signal come from? the output from the DSP. The optical output also comes from the DSP...

...unless of course the optical output was truncated to 16-bit and the ADC was fed a 24-bit signal.

I've just had a look at the schematics for my sony mds-je470 (standalone player, atrac type-R), and indeed the DSP does give separate signals to the optical out and the ADC. Unfortunately my scope is out on loan at the moment, so I can't do any measurement... I'd be very interested to find out if there is any difference though... hmm!

best regards,
stephen

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #41 on: September 01, 2007, 10:45:59 PM »
So given that, I would tend to believe that the analog out of an MD player with DSP Type-R/S (depending what mode you're transferring) would provide a higher quality sound than a digital transfer (optical out or USB).

Disagree.

Where does the analogue out  come from? It comes from some analogue-to-digital converter inside the player. Where does the digital signal come from? the output from the DSP. The optical output also comes from the DSP...

...unless of course the optical output was truncated to 16-bit and the ADC was fed a 24-bit signal.

 :tomato:  I guess the analog output would come from the DA section of an AD/DA (analog to digital/digital to analog) converter that is inside the player.  And I guess that the digital signal would come from the minidisc itself.  Which if analog out...  would have to go through the DA converter, or if digital out...  no DA would be needed.  It would stay digital!  So the DSP may be active with both analog and digital outputs?  I don't have a deck with an optical out, so I guess I'm not too sure!  So if that's correct...  USB output would still be the least quality in sound?   

An MD recorder is only 16 bits, so the discs would have already been truncated or dithered.  So I don't think that's an issue for this situation. 

This is an interesting question...  something I've wondered for a long time, since I have over 100 legacy discs to deal with.  Some are in LP2 format, and since there is no deck that has an optical output and supports DSP Type-S (at least not that I know of), the analog out on my Hi-MD seems the best for my situation.  But for SP discs, maybe a DSP Type-R deck with an optical output would be better?  That is, if the DSP is active through the optical output!  Either way, it's sounding like using the DSP would be superior to transferring through USB!!!  What do ya think???  I like this minidisc talk...  not enough of if around!!! :realhappy:   And I might be completely wrong about any/all of this...  I know what I think I know, but what I think I know, I might not know!!!   ;D     
« Last Edit: September 01, 2007, 11:01:52 PM by uncleyug »
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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #42 on: September 02, 2007, 01:13:14 AM »
How you transfer your legacy files is of no matter to me.  It is your trip.  However, I uploaded an SP file recorded on an MZ-N1 about three years ago to my PC.  I did it with my RH1 through SS.  The intermediary files was an OMA and the out put was a WAV.  The charts with the frequency analysis are in another thread.  Whether the chart was regular or logarithmic the frequency response was well up to ~18KHz which is keeping for what SONY says SP freq range is.  Had it run through this intermediary degradation which so many talk about it would have been degraded by ~4 or 5 KHz.  There is little low end in the freq scans as the recording is an interview so what you have is two tenor or baritone voices talking.

As for 24 bit conversion.  Well, you will have a 24 bit copy of a 16 bit file.  Scan at the highest resolution a fuzzy picture and you will still have a fuzzy picture.


Cheers
« Last Edit: September 02, 2007, 01:16:08 AM by boojum »
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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #43 on: September 02, 2007, 01:38:56 AM »
How you transfer your legacy files is of no matter to me.  It is your trip. 

boo...  I'm with ya on that!  But...  I do want to squeeze as much juice out of them ol' apples as I possibly can!!!  I wouldn't think that there could be too much difference though!  If only Sony would cough up some facts about some of these questions.  May MD live long!!!

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #44 on: September 02, 2007, 07:05:18 AM »
Some are in LP2 format, and since there is no deck that has an optical output and supports DSP Type-S (at least not that I know of)
My deck, the MDS-JB980QS, does have DSP Type-S and optical-out (as well as coax-out and analog out).

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #45 on: September 02, 2007, 08:11:46 AM »
Some are in LP2 format, and since there is no deck that has an optical output and supports DSP Type-S (at least not that I know of)
My deck, the MDS-JB980QS, does have DSP Type-S and optical-out (as well as coax-out and analog out).

Wow!!!  Did not know that...  looks like I need to start searchin'!!!  Thanks!!! +T ;D
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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #46 on: September 02, 2007, 11:45:56 AM »
It is hard to believe that a thread on MD transfers would be this long.  Wow!  I guess there is still the interest. 

I had to use my RH1 over the weekend as my SD crapped out.  The SONY is still chugging along.  Granted the SD failing is an anomoly, but it makes em love that little box even more.

Cheers
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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #47 on: September 05, 2007, 03:36:02 PM »

An MD recorder is only 16 bits, so the discs would have already been truncated or dithered.  So I don't think that's an issue for this situation. 


Just browsing back through here and noticed this.... I was actually under the impression that SP is recorded at 20 bits... at the very least, the old md recorders had a 20 bit ADC, whether or not all those bits we're recorded I don't know.
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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #48 on: September 05, 2007, 05:00:59 PM »

An MD recorder is only 16 bits, so the discs would have already been truncated or dithered.  So I don't think that's an issue for this situation. 

Just browsing back through here and noticed this.... I was actually under the impression that SP is recorded at 20 bits... at the very least, the old md recorders had a 20 bit ADC, whether or not all those bits we're recorded I don't know.

Ya know...  I thought about that as well...  and maybe I spoke out-of-turn!!! :tomato:  I realized some of the older home md decks claim to have a 24bit sampling rate or a 20bit A/D converter.  I'm sure it must be correct, but not sure how...  since I've alway thought MD discs are 16bit maximum!  So I'll say it again...  I know what I think I know, but what I think I know, I might not know!!!  Anyways...  Good question!!!  Anyone with a good answer???   
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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #49 on: February 28, 2010, 03:38:58 AM »
Okay, I know this is an old thread, as are all of the threads I have just finished reading, relating to this issue of transferring minidisc recordings to a hard drive. This might end up being a fairly pedantic question as well, but it is what it is....

Originally, my question was also whether there was anything to be gained by a real-time MD transfer to a 24-bit file. After all, we do it with cassettes. Still, at this point I get that it would make a lossy (ATRAC) file just a bigger lossy file, only with less artifacts, which seems moot to me.

My situation is that I picked up a SHARP MD-420 unit some years back, and recorded a tron of shows with it, before realizing the implications of ATRAC compression. At that point, I switched to a Microtrack, and things started looking (and sounding) a whole lot better.

In the meantime, I've got a few hundred minidics sitting here that need to be transferred, so I can store them as data, and can play them on a .flac player on my computers. It seems to me that my sole potion is to run them through an analog cable into the hard drive, which is a shame, since that means by-passing the 4-pole signal, in favor of a standard 1/8" cable, into the soundcard.

As there is no optical out on the unit, and no dedicated "line out" which would establish a sort of "auto-level" output gain into the computer, do I just crank the output volume from the MD until all the way? It seems like the answer would be yes, and frankly, I can play back minidiscs at just about any level, and still capture it satisfactorily on my hard drive, but I'm wondering if any discussion has taken place about setting a recommended output level for capturing on a computer?

Also, what about not capturing as 24-bit, but bumping the sample rate from 44.1 to 48kHz? Mathematically, that seems more appropriate, and that would also more directly affect the dynamic range, so I'd be eager to hear any thoughts on that approach.

Thanks in advance, and if there actually was a discussion about these two points that I missed, sorry!
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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #50 on: February 28, 2010, 06:00:28 PM »
Okay, I know this is an old thread, as are all of the threads I have just finished reading, relating to this issue of transferring minidisc recordings to a hard drive. This might end up being a fairly pedantic question as well, but it is what it is....

Originally, my question was also whether there was anything to be gained by a real-time MD transfer to a 24-bit file. After all, we do it with cassettes. Still, at this point I get that it would make a lossy (ATRAC) file just a bigger lossy file, only with less artifacts, which seems moot to me.

My situation is that I picked up a SHARP MD-420 unit some years back, and recorded a tron of shows with it, before realizing the implications of ATRAC compression. At that point, I switched to a Microtrack, and things started looking (and sounding) a whole lot better.

In the meantime, I've got a few hundred minidics sitting here that need to be transferred, so I can store them as data, and can play them on a .flac player on my computers. It seems to me that my sole potion is to run them through an analog cable into the hard drive, which is a shame, since that means by-passing the 4-pole signal, in favor of a standard 1/8" cable, into the soundcard.

As there is no optical out on the unit, and no dedicated "line out" which would establish a sort of "auto-level" output gain into the computer, do I just crank the output volume from the MD until all the way? It seems like the answer would be yes, and frankly, I can play back minidiscs at just about any level, and still capture it satisfactorily on my hard drive, but I'm wondering if any discussion has taken place about setting a recommended output level for capturing on a computer?

Also, what about not capturing as 24-bit, but bumping the sample rate from 44.1 to 48kHz? Mathematically, that seems more appropriate, and that would also more directly affect the dynamic range, so I'd be eager to hear any thoughts on that approach.

Thanks in advance, and if there actually was a discussion about these two points that I missed, sorry!

of course the easy way would be uploading the discs right to the computer with the latest HIMD recorder. Uploading a full 80 min disc would take about 5 min at the most and you'd have a fully editable wav file once it uploads.
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Offline GroundHog420

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #51 on: March 01, 2010, 12:32:05 AM »
You're obviously not familiar with the unit I mentioned.

Those discs cannot be transferred via a Hi-MD unit, as they were not recorded on that unit, and will not play well with the proprietary software, etc, of the Hi-MD units. I know - I tried, and that's what I learned. That information can also be gleaned from the manuals.

Anyone else, who might be familiar with the technology I've mentioned?

Okay, I know this is an old thread, as are all of the threads I have just finished reading, relating to this issue of transferring minidisc recordings to a hard drive. This might end up being a fairly pedantic question as well, but it is what it is....

Originally, my question was also whether there was anything to be gained by a real-time MD transfer to a 24-bit file. After all, we do it with cassettes. Still, at this point I get that it would make a lossy (ATRAC) file just a bigger lossy file, only with less artifacts, which seems moot to me.

My situation is that I picked up a SHARP MD-420 unit some years back, and recorded a tron of shows with it, before realizing the implications of ATRAC compression. At that point, I switched to a Microtrack, and things started looking (and sounding) a whole lot better.

In the meantime, I've got a few hundred minidics sitting here that need to be transferred, so I can store them as data, and can play them on a .flac player on my computers. It seems to me that my sole potion is to run them through an analog cable into the hard drive, which is a shame, since that means by-passing the 4-pole signal, in favor of a standard 1/8" cable, into the soundcard.

As there is no optical out on the unit, and no dedicated "line out" which would establish a sort of "auto-level" output gain into the computer, do I just crank the output volume from the MD until all the way? It seems like the answer would be yes, and frankly, I can play back minidiscs at just about any level, and still capture it satisfactorily on my hard drive, but I'm wondering if any discussion has taken place about setting a recommended output level for capturing on a computer?

Also, what about not capturing as 24-bit, but bumping the sample rate from 44.1 to 48kHz? Mathematically, that seems more appropriate, and that would also more directly affect the dynamic range, so I'd be eager to hear any thoughts on that approach.

Thanks in advance, and if there actually was a discussion about these two points that I missed, sorry!

of course the easy way would be uploading the discs right to the computer with the latest HIMD recorder. Uploading a full 80 min disc would take about 5 min at the most and you'd have a fully editable wav file once it uploads.
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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #52 on: March 01, 2010, 08:49:50 AM »
You're asking the same question the cassette transfer crowd asks...is there any benefit to 24 bit when making an analog transfer. Answer is - its debatable. I favor the "no" side of the argument. But there are sides. (lots of threads on this)

However - analog is far from the preferred method when it comes to MD transfers - so the 24 bit issue is a kinda moot.

I suggest going to ebay and forking out 50 bucks for used standalone MD recorder/player.

You have a microtrack. So you would just go MDcoax > MT.

Some of the Sony standalone decks can produce a 24 bit spdif stream from the ATRAC - so you can remaster in "proper" 24 bits.

I am still confused about the ATRAC > WAV Conversion though...is there any benefit to de-compressing them to 24 bits?

I know some of the early MD had 20 bit ADs...did later ones have 24 bit A/Ds?


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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #53 on: March 01, 2010, 09:04:50 AM »
I'm probably the most knowledgeable MD user on this forum so I know what I'm talking about.

Sonic Stage and the Sony RH-1 had no problems uploading hundreds of recordings made with my Sharp MT-90 that uses the same recording process as the minidisc you used.  Bit you seem to know more then I do so I'll let you figure this out on your own.

Perhaps next time you ask for help you should take your head out of your ass. 
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runonce

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #54 on: March 01, 2010, 10:05:19 AM »
You are the most full of yourself, that's for certain. Nice language, by the way. Is there some reason you felt compelled to insult someone for no reason? Is that what makes you an "expert"? Curious.....

You possibly missed the point where I said I already attempted to make the transfers of my older minidiscs on a Hi-MD unit, and it would not allow me to do that via the digital upload, because the discs were not Hi-MD discs.

I'm probably the most knowledgeable MD user on this forum so I know what I'm talking about.

Sonic Stage and the Sony RH-1 had no problems uploading hundreds of recordings made with my Sharp MT-90 that uses the same recording process as the minidisc you used.  Bit you seem to know more then I do so I'll let you figure this out on your own.

Perhaps next time you ask for help you should take your head out of your ass.

Thats the part where your losing us - the point is, some HiMD decks CAN transfer legacy, non-HiMD discs...you're saying it didnt work? It IS possible. So we need to debug your process.

But - you might want to provide a better description of what you have tried - might get better advice.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2010, 10:09:06 AM by runonce »

Offline GroundHog420

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #55 on: March 01, 2010, 11:04:09 AM »
Well, part of the question I was mulling over was indeed about the alleged benefits of converting to 24-bit. I think we're probably in agreement that this might be viewed on a case-by-case basis. I have looked at a few different spectrals done from test analog transfers, and they don't show me anything that provides a strong argument in favor of 24-bit transfers.

Alternately, I was thinking that a 16-bit/48kHz transfer might be useful, as the 48kHz sample rate deals with the part of the data that represents the dynamic range of the recording. This wouldn't really be useful in terms of making changes such as increasing the volume, etc, but might allow some room for minor non-destructive editing.

The other big question I was asking was based on my not being aware that there were some changes made in MD units since the initial run of Hi-MD units. As with a lot of of early MD users, I had been under the impression that the only way to make transfers was via an analog cable, which always struck me as being inefficient, since it would have been reliant on the output volume setting, and horribly subjective in that respect. That's why I still have all my old MD masters. Now I'm glad I did.

Inadvertently, I've now learned that apparently the Sony MZ-RH1 is apparently more developed than its' predecessors (which would not allow USB transfers of pre-Hi-MD discs). I'm afraid I don't recall the Hi-MD model I used to attempt making my transfers, but it wasn't the RH1. From what I gather, the RH1 is the first unit that would allow such a digital transfer. The first line in the following review pretty much answers that question.

Quote from: MDCenter.NL
(this is an excerpt from a review found H E R E.)

Upload of old recordings via USB
Perhaps the most important new function of the MZ-RH1 is the possibility to upload standard format MD recordings. Whereas with earlier generations of Hi-MD it was only possible to upload Hi-MD format recordings, with the MZ-RH1 this is now possible for all recordings (and therefore recordings made with old MD devices).
In order to be able to make full use of this functionality you need to use the updated version of SonicStage 3.4 supplied with the MZ-RH1. The complete version number of this release of SonicStage is 3.4.02.14020. The necessary modified NetMD drivers are also supplied packaged in a new version of the Personal Audio Drivers. Version 4.4.00.11241 in this case. If you have these or later versions of the software installed you will be able to use the MD upload capabilities of the MZ-RH1. Because the MZ-RH1 itself has had to be specially adapted to allow MD uploads it is not possible that you can use the new Sonic Stage version to upload with old Hi-MD devices. The upload of MD recordings will only work on devices that were designed to do so from the beginning. At present therefore only the MZ-RH1. After the software has been successfully installed the upload of old recordings can begin. As soon as a disc with standard MD recordings is put in the MZ-RH1, Sonic Stage will indicate by means of an arrow which tracks can be uploaded or not. This means that in practice microphone recordings, analog in and optical digital recordings can be uploaded. Recordings made via the computer (i.e. via USB) cannot be uploaded because with such recordings the distinction cannot be made between legally transferred music or music which has been purchased for example via the Connect Music Store. Normal MD format discs cannot store enough extra information need to be able to make this distinction.

I bailed on the MD technology fairly quickly when I grasped the concept of ATRAC, so I would have been out of the loop as far as any advances which were made in that field. All I knew for certain was that I was stuck with a bunch of lossy recordings, which sound fine, but are lossy nonetheless. I stopped recording on MD and got a Microtrack, and then an Edirol R09 and a R-04, and never looked back.

So that seems hopeful, if I want to go out and buy a RH1, although it's also seems ironic that I would now need to buy another MD unit in order to convert these older recordings. More likely, though, I'd want to track down something like the Denon DMD-100, or a similar component type model, possibly like the Sony MDS-JB980QS. Sadly, they will still be lossy recordings, because like a lot of folks who jumped on that technology in the early days of MD, I didn't understand the limitations of ATRAC. Still, it's great to discover that there is hope for transferring all these old shows as data in their original state.

You're asking the same question the cassette transfer crowd asks...is there any benefit to 24 bit when making an analog transfer. Answer is - its debatable. I favor the "no" side of the argument. But there are sides. (lots of threads on this)

However - analog is far from the preferred method when it comes to MD transfers - so the 24 bit issue is a kinda moot.

I suggest going to ebay and forking out 50 bucks for used standalone MD recorder/player.

You have a microtrack. So you would just go MDcoax > MT.

Some of the Sony standalone decks can produce a 24 bit spdif stream from the ATRAC - so you can remaster in "proper" 24 bits.

I am still confused about the ATRAC > WAV Conversion though...is there any benefit to de-compressing them to 24 bits?

I know some of the early MD had 20 bit ADs...did later ones have 24 bit A/Ds?
Hey man, that common sense shit won't fly around here, we're from Portland, we're edgy & different or something  ???
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Offline GroundHog420

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #56 on: March 01, 2010, 11:58:40 AM »
I don’t know about your self-professed level of knowledge, but you are possibly the most full of yourself, that's for certain. Nice language, by the way. Is there some reason you felt compelled to insult someone for no reason? Is that what makes you an "expert"? Curious.....  I never claimed to be knowledgeable in any way regarding MD technology, which I should think would be apparent in the fact that I posted a question here in the first place.

You possibly missed the point where I said I already attempted to make the transfers of my older minidiscs on a Hi-MD unit, and it would not allow me to do that via the digital upload, because the discs were not Hi-MD discs. I did not use an RH-1, which should be somewhat apparent by the fact that I was unable to transfer my older discs via USB. As I have since learned through other channels, that unit added that functionality, which earlier Hi-MD units were lacking.

What you might have offered as a response, since you consider yourself an "expert" in this area, is the knowledge that early Hi-MD units did not offer the ability to upload previously recorded discs via USB, just as I stated in my earlier post. You could have also offered the knowledge that some latter models - such as the RH-1, had been upgraded to include this functionality. You could have also included the knowledge that certain standalone component-type models also offer that functionality, via digital coaxial cables.

For being such a "knowledgeable" fellow, you certainly exhibited very little evidence of any actual knowledge, only self-congratulatory boasting, and a rude remark. I've got a thick skin, so I'm not exactly crying in my beer, but all the same, your comments were certainly unwarranted. Perhaps you might consider taking your own advice regarding the removing of one's own head, before offering "help" to others.

I'm probably the most knowledgeable MD user on this forum so I know what I'm talking about.

Sonic Stage and the Sony RH-1 had no problems uploading hundreds of recordings made with my Sharp MT-90 that uses the same recording process as the minidisc you used.  Bit you seem to know more then I do so I'll let you figure this out on your own.

Perhaps next time you ask for help you should take your head out of your ass.
Hey man, that common sense shit won't fly around here, we're from Portland, we're edgy & different or something  ???
she kept playing with the balls for around 2 years after i thought i had seen it all from them.

Offline GroundHog420

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #57 on: March 01, 2010, 02:00:55 PM »
Ah, but my point is, he may have been correct, but was off-base in his initial reply.

The RH-1 evidently does allow USB transfer of pre-Hi-MD discs. That much seems to be true.

For the record, my early attempts to transfer my older discs were in early 2006. The fellow who loaned me an early model Hi-MD for testing mentioned that his deck was a Sony RH MZ-910, which was a second-generation Hi-MD deck. Not only did that deck not allow a USB transfer of my older discs, Sony's proprietary SonicStage software invited some malware to play on my then-new PC, and interfered with some of the network directories. That was fun.

I never said I had used a RH-1 to attempt transferring my pre-Hi-MD discs. I mentioned I had a Sharp MD-420 - if he's that "knowledgeable", that would have at least given him a clue that I was not up to date with the current MD technology. There's no shame in being a bit behind the times, is there? That's why I was asking a question in the first place.

Therefore, his assertion that the "easy way" would be to use the latest RH-1 deck kind of assumed that I would know what he was talking about. Until he mentioned that particular deck, I would have had no way of even knowing that the technology had been upgraded since the first run of Hi-MD decks hit the market; particularly as I stopped using minidiscs about four years ago. Apparently, the RH-1 was introduced a few months after my tests with the RH MZ 910. Who knew? Also, I'm finding varied reports, some of which indicate that the RH-1 was discontinued in 2007. If that's true, it rules out that being an "easy" option. If that's not true, it still would mean spending a good chunk of cash on a relatively dated (and possibly unsupported) piece of equipment.

At any rate, that's a nice gesture of you to defend your friend, but it doesn't change the fact that he really was being a jerk, and could have offered more information than he provided. That's the basic problem with a lot of these forums - quite a few people are content to just tap out a knee-jerk one-line response to something, rather than to engage themselves in a deeper discussion of the issue at hand. Generally, I find that "too little information" seems to be the rule of thumb on the internet. Just sayin'.


For being such a "knowledgeable" fellow, you certainly exhibited very little evidence of any actual knowledge, only self-congratulatory boasting, and a rude remark. I've got a thick skin, so I'm not exactly crying in my beer, but all the same, your comments were certainly unwarranted. Perhaps you might consider taking your own advice regarding the removing of one's own head, before offering "help" to others.

Come on now. You told him basically that he didn't know what he was talking about when he was correct and he got huffy about it. He should have been polite, but that can set some people off. Sounds like your skin may not be as thick as you think it is.
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Offline dunebug81

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #58 on: March 01, 2010, 03:37:21 PM »
As for being an expert that I am not but as one of the few people who use and love the minidisc format I have learned quite a bit over the years.

The RH1 is the last MD unit that Sony produced and after years of a great teachnology going to waste they finally got it right. It is the only unit that supports USB 2.0 and the uploading of HIMD, NetMD, and legacy ATRAC recordings. The RH1 has been discontinued but the M200 can still be purchased new and is the identical model with 2 exceptions. 1) The Mac os is supported but only with PCM recordings 2) It comes with a worthless $50 microphone.

I wasn't rude to you. You told me that I didn't know what I was talking about.  I only mention that I was knowledgeable in the subject because there are so few of us on here who know much, if anything, about minidisc.

If you're looking for straight digial uploads in 16bit then I'm sure you could find someone to do the transfer for you. I would help you out but I'm a truck driver and come home once a month at the most  and I couldn't get it done for you in a timely fashion.  However if you can't find someone else to do the transfers for you and are on no hurry to get them back I would be happy to transfer you discs to whatever medium you wish. 
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runonce

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #59 on: March 01, 2010, 04:11:10 PM »
Quote
Sadly, they will still be lossy recordings, because like a lot of folks who jumped on that technology in the early days of MD, I didn't understand the limitations of ATRAC. Still, it's great to discover that there is hope for transferring all these old shows as data in their original state.

Look - they will ALWAYS be lossy...no matter what you do. That loss is built in to ATRAC. Not coming back. Its like going mp3 > wav. The data is thrown out for good.

Dont take this the wrong way - But I think pining over the virtues of 24 bit when you are remastering a lossy source via a portable deck's headphone output is bit ridiculous.

The best you can hope for is the most direct ATRAC > WAV conversion.

A. Hi-MD > Computer

B. Standalone > Microtack (via spdif)

I think - for the most part - these can be considered equivalent processes.(probably some quibble room here)

I think the jury is still out as to the virtue of reconstructing the wav as a 24bit file. If there was any archival advantage...obviously that would be great. But you'd still want 16bits if you need to go to CD.

Another MD user and member here had a standalone MD that had the spdif output set at 24 bit as default. (according to the manual). So - thats why I wonder. Sony made it an option...before there were any real 24 bit devices available (for the most part). Why bother unless it made a difference?

I know I've owned Sony standalones with 20 bit ADs - so some confusion there for sure.

Offline GroundHog420

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #60 on: March 01, 2010, 05:13:38 PM »
I never stated that you didn't know what you were talking about. You were referring to a unit that I was not familiar with (the RH-1), and I was talking about a unit which I apparently forgot to mention the model name of in my first post (the RH MZ-910). We were both right, inasmuch as the RH-1 can transfer via USB, and the RH MZ-910 will not allow that method of transfer. That does not imply that you don't know what you're talking about, just that we were talking about two different things.

Yes, you were rude, unless telling someone to get their head out their ass is your way of trying to demonstrate to someone how smart you are. Apparently, because I forgot to specify which deck I had tried, that gave you license to insult me. Thanks for your offer, I guess, but I've found out what I need to know, and will happily spend whatever I need to, to get a deck that will serve my purposes. Besides, after all this nonsense, there's no way in hell I would entrust my masters with a guy who had a chance to present himself as an intelligent, knowledgeable person, but instead chose to willingly present himself as a complete fucking jerk.

As for being an expert that I am not but as one of the few people who use and love the minidisc format I have learned quite a bit over the years.

The RH1 is the last MD unit that Sony produced and after years of a great teachnology going to waste they finally got it right. It is the only unit that supports USB 2.0 and the uploading of HIMD, NetMD, and legacy ATRAC recordings. The RH1 has been discontinued but the M200 can still be purchased new and is the identical model with 2 exceptions. 1) The Mac os is supported but only with PCM recordings 2) It comes with a worthless $50 microphone.

I wasn't rude to you. You told me that I didn't know what I was talking about.  I only mention that I was knowledgeable in the subject because there are so few of us on here who know much, if anything, about minidisc.

If you're looking for straight digial uploads in 16bit then I'm sure you could find someone to do the transfer for you. I would help you out but I'm a truck driver and come home once a month at the most  and I couldn't get it done for you in a timely fashion.  However if you can't find someone else to do the transfers for you and are on no hurry to get them back I would be happy to transfer you discs to whatever medium you wish.
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Offline GroundHog420

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #61 on: March 01, 2010, 05:15:28 PM »
Ummm... yes, I quite understand that. To my awareness, we are not debating anything here.

"Pining"? Hardly. Like I said, I'm happy to discover that I can transfer these in the format they're in, without losing anything else.

My comment was simply an acknowledgment of not having a better understanding of the format back when I recorded those shows. To my ears, and most others who have heard many of these recordings, they sound just fine. I was simply remarking in the sense that if I knew more about MD back then, I would have used a different recording medium.

I've been recording shows for something like 35 years, and it's always a learning curve. When I was a kid, I didn't get how using a better brand of cassette, or a better microphone, would vastly improve the sound quality. Learning things like that along the way is what turned it from a casual hobby into a more serious archiving endeavor in my adult years.

My original question had to do with finding out what other people thought, particularly given the previous discussion about the possibility of 20-bit AD conversion, etc. It all sounded like a lot of speculation, and I since some of those questions had not been answered yet, I wondered if there was any empiric data to substantiate anyone's claims. I stated at the beginning that I personally didn't think it mattered whether it went to 24-bit or not. So, ummm.... I wonder why you seem to be stuck on that point, when I pretty much agreed with you a while ago.

This has got to be the strangest thread on TS I have ever set my foot in. Sorry to have bothered you folks - you seem like you would prefer to be left alone with each other, so I will gladly leave you to it. Enjoy yourselves.

Quote
Sadly, they will still be lossy recordings, because like a lot of folks who jumped on that technology in the early days of MD, I didn't understand the limitations of ATRAC. Still, it's great to discover that there is hope for transferring all these old shows as data in their original state.

Look - they will ALWAYS be lossy...no matter what you do. That loss is built in to ATRAC. Not coming back. Its like going mp3 > wav. The data is thrown out for good.

Dont take this the wrong way - But I think pining over the virtues of 24 bit when you are remastering a lossy source via a portable deck's headphone output is bit ridiculous.

The best you can hope for is the most direct ATRAC > WAV conversion.

A. Hi-MD > Computer

B. Standalone > Microtack (via spdif)

I think - for the most part - these can be considered equivalent processes.(probably some quibble room here)

I think the jury is still out as to the virtue of reconstructing the wav as a 24bit file. If there was any archival advantage...obviously that would be great. But you'd still want 16bits if you need to go to CD.

Another MD user and member here had a standalone MD that had the spdif output set at 24 bit as default. (according to the manual). So - thats why I wonder. Sony made it an option...before there were any real 24 bit devices available (for the most part). Why bother unless it made a difference?

I know I've owned Sony standalones with 20 bit ADs - so some confusion there for sure.
Hey man, that common sense shit won't fly around here, we're from Portland, we're edgy & different or something  ???
she kept playing with the balls for around 2 years after i thought i had seen it all from them.

runonce

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #62 on: March 01, 2010, 07:50:07 PM »
Good Luck!

 ::)
« Last Edit: March 01, 2010, 07:51:45 PM by runonce »

Offline dunebug81

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #63 on: March 01, 2010, 08:11:04 PM »
Good Luck!

 ::)

wow, even when he agrees he still argues with you. It's too bad that some people can't just say "I didn't know that thanks for the info." such is life.

Since this is a Minidisc thread I have a question, I'm sure the answer to this is no but I'll ask it anyway.

 Have any of you that use a HI-MD and the sonic stage software been able to install, run, and upload a recording on windows 7?  I have not seen any info on if it will run or not. I would like to buy a new laptop but everything comes with windows 7 and having a computer that won't run Sonic Stage does me no good.   
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adrianf74

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #64 on: May 22, 2010, 02:30:27 PM »
So, I just posted a similar question in a new thread before finding this one.

My situation is similar.  I've got an Edriol R-09 (no digital input) so the question I ask is the same... I've got a portable unit a friend's loaning me and I've got a slew of shows (mainly recorded in MDLP on a Sharp MT-877 from 2002 through 2005).  I want to transfer these from MD (because my friend's going back overseas) and use his deck analog out to my Edirol (which I know isn't the most optimal situation).

Is it worth going 24/48 or should I just stick with 16/44.1?  I'm leaning towards the latter because of ATRAC and the source material but I know some people will swear up and down that 24/48 is the "best way to go."  I just want to do this project one time and one time only.

Thanks again.

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #65 on: May 22, 2010, 07:29:37 PM »

Is it worth going 24/48?


Sure, why not...  Its a simple procedure to go 16/44 from either 16/48 or 24/48...  Why not do the best with what you got until you can do it better???

Terry
***Do you have PHISH, VIDA BLUE, JAZZ MANDOLIN PROJECT or any other Phish related DATs/Tapes/MDs that need to be transferred???  I can do them for you!!!***

I will return your DATs/Tapes/MDs.  I'll also provide Master FLAC files via DropBox.  PM me for details.

Sony PCM R500 > SPDIF > Tascam HD-P2
Nakamichi DR-3 > (Oade Advanced Concert Mod) Tascam HD-P2
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Offline boojum

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #66 on: May 23, 2010, 05:48:37 AM »
So, I just posted a similar question in a new thread before finding this one.

My situation is similar.  I've got an Edriol R-09 (no digital input) so the question I ask is the same... I've got a portable unit a friend's loaning me and I've got a slew of shows (mainly recorded in MDLP on a Sharp MT-877 from 2002 through 2005).  I want to transfer these from MD (because my friend's going back overseas) and use his deck analog out to my Edirol (which I know isn't the most optimal situation).

Is it worth going 24/48 or should I just stick with 16/44.1?  I'm leaning towards the latter because of ATRAC and the source material but I know some people will swear up and down that 24/48 is the "best way to go."  I just want to do this project one time and one time only.

Thanks again.

If it were possible to copy it at 24/192 it would not make any difference.  You cannot improve the quality of what you are copying from by copying at high sampling rates.  It will never be better than the original.  16/44.1 will be more than adequate for ATRAC files.  It is no different than copying MP3 files to WAV files.  They will not be improved in quality.   
« Last Edit: May 23, 2010, 04:33:50 PM by boojum »
Nov schmoz kapop.

Offline sunjan

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #67 on: May 24, 2010, 07:35:24 AM »
Boojum is right, from a mathematical point of view.
Original ATRAC3 (also known as ATRAC-LP or LP2 mode) = 132 kbit/s
Standard 16-bit audio CD = 1,411.2 kbit/s
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kbit/s#Examples


That said, let your ears judge. Transfer one track in various bit rates and verify if you hear any difference. If you don't, it's pretty safe to say that 16-bit gives you sufficient headroom.
If you've read previous threads, I shouldn't have to point out that your transfer method involves an extra DA>AD step, which you could avoid by using other equipment. YMMV...
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adrianf74

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #68 on: May 24, 2010, 09:29:52 AM »
Boojum is right, from a mathematical point of view.
Original ATRAC3 (also known as ATRAC-LP or LP2 mode) = 132 kbit/s
Standard 16-bit audio CD = 1,411.2 kbit/s
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kbit/s#Examples


That said, let your ears judge. Transfer one track in various bit rates and verify if you hear any difference. If you don't, it's pretty safe to say that 16-bit gives you sufficient headroom.
If you've read previous threads, I shouldn't have to point out that your transfer method involves an extra DA>AD step, which you could avoid by using other equipment. YMMV...

Thanks everyone.  I honestly doubt I'd "hear" anything differently between the sample rates.  I know 44/16 is still overkill based on ATRAC3 but wanted to know what others thought.

I know that there's an extra DA>AD step in there.  My computer does not have optical in (nor does my Edirol for that matter) so I'm kinda stuck doing it this way.  I don't know when I'll have access to another MD player so I'd rather do this while I have the chance - my friend with the MD player goes back overseas in a few weeks.

Offline lukpac

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #69 on: August 04, 2016, 12:27:33 PM »
Thats the part where your losing us - the point is, some HiMD decks CAN transfer legacy, non-HiMD discs...you're saying it didnt work? It IS possible. So we need to debug your process.

Is there a list of what Hi-MD decks can transfer/upload non-Hi-MD recordings?

I have a bunch of standard MiniDiscs that I recorded before getting flash based recorders. I made analog dubs of them years ago, but would really like to archive digital copies of all of them. I've seen a lot of conflicting information about the ability to transfer legacy recordings using Hi-MD machines. Wikipedia suggests the MZ-RH1 was the first machine to allow such transfers, but was that a change in the machine, or a change in SonicStage?

The MZ-RH1 still commands quite a bit of money, certainly far more than I'd care to spend on a machine that would only be used to transfer existing recordings. There are other, less expensive Hi-MD machines with USB connections, but it isn't clear if they support such transfers or not.

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #70 on: August 04, 2016, 02:20:00 PM »
Thats the part where your losing us - the point is, some HiMD decks CAN transfer legacy, non-HiMD discs...you're saying it didnt work? It IS possible. So we need to debug your process.

Is there a list of what Hi-MD decks can transfer/upload non-Hi-MD recordings?

I have a bunch of standard MiniDiscs that I recorded before getting flash based recorders. I made analog dubs of them years ago, but would really like to archive digital copies of all of them. I've seen a lot of conflicting information about the ability to transfer legacy recordings using Hi-MD machines. Wikipedia suggests the MZ-RH1 was the first machine to allow such transfers, but was that a change in the machine, or a change in SonicStage?

The MZ-RH1 still commands quite a bit of money, certainly far more than I'd care to spend on a machine that would only be used to transfer existing recordings. There are other, less expensive Hi-MD machines with USB connections, but it isn't clear if they support such transfers or not.

I have a MD player that does 16/44 digital output...  I may be able to transfer your MDs for you...  See my sig for the model number...  You'll have to research yourself to see if it will work...

Terry
***Do you have PHISH, VIDA BLUE, JAZZ MANDOLIN PROJECT or any other Phish related DATs/Tapes/MDs that need to be transferred???  I can do them for you!!!***

I will return your DATs/Tapes/MDs.  I'll also provide Master FLAC files via DropBox.  PM me for details.

Sony PCM R500 > SPDIF > Tascam HD-P2
Nakamichi DR-3 > (Oade Advanced Concert Mod) Tascam HD-P2
Sony MDS-JE510 > Hosa ODL-276 > Tascam HD-P2

******

Offline EarlyMorningRain

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #71 on: August 18, 2016, 11:31:53 AM »
I have a MD player that does 16/44 digital output...  I may be able to transfer your MDs for you...  See my sig for the model number...  You'll have to research yourself to see if it will work...
Terry

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