Become a Site Supporter and Never see Ads again!

Author Topic: master md's>analog out>24 bit???  (Read 9535 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline dunebug81

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2031
  • Gender: Male
Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2006, 08:55:06 AM »
Well thats just stupid.  I'll have to do a side by side test and see what I can see.
Greg
www.enemyzero.com/greg/
aim: dunebug81

Offline nardo

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 232
    • The Comatorium - The Mars Volta News
Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2006, 09:10:51 AM »
Well thats just stupid.  I'll have to do a side by side test and see what I can see.
Yeah, it's a joke, they should at least warn people. I'm not 100% sure on that but I think I read that there is no proper ATRAC codec available for the computer so the re-encoding is Sony's way around that. Even if it were working properly you'd get slightly better results by using a standalone deck that has DSP.

sml42

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2006, 09:47:24 AM »
I think I read that there is no proper ATRAC codec available for the computer so the re-encoding is Sony's way around that.

That sounds vaguely familiar.

Certainly, any transcoding (i.e. ATRAC > ATRAC3) will introduce extra lossiness. Kind of like going wav>mp3>wav>mp3 I would imagine. I wonder if that's what's going on here?

The question is, where is the transcoding happening? If it's happening in the player itself before hitting the pc, well there's not a lot you can do about that. If it's happening on the pc, well then perhaps an updat to SS could avoid the transcode, and just decode ATRAC>WAV and we'd all be happy? Hmm... I wonder...

+t for this info though, I haven't seen this discussed anywhere else on the web.

Offline Brett S.

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 71
  • Gender: Male
  • As seen in VT
Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2006, 01:38:00 AM »
which brings us back to........

How about analog out into pre,adc,soundcard of choice????

You have the original md compression, plus the analog transfer as far as lossy goes

Is this better then adding more compression, plus noise via the way being discussed?????
Sennheiser K3U/ME40,ME20 -
(Dorsey Mod)Oktava MC12's >
Canare Starquad xlr's > BM2P+ UA5 > MT 2 / Sony TCD-D7

Offline nardo

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 232
    • The Comatorium - The Mars Volta News
Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2006, 04:46:29 AM »
which brings us back to........

How about analog out into pre,adc,soundcard of choice????

You have the original md compression, plus the analog transfer as far as lossy goes

Is this better then adding more compression, plus noise via the way being discussed?????
Just get someone to do the transfer via coaxial/optical-out using an appropriate stand-alone deck.

By the way, Sony seems as if they are slowly but surely reacting to this issue, the newest SonicStage (4.2) has DSEE* which isn't really a solution to the problem but at least an attempt to improve on the current state. It is for computer playback only, though.

* (from Sony): DSEE is a high-frequency completion technology developed by Sony that improves the quality of compressed audio and adds back in high frequencies that are often lost when audio is compressed. The resulting audio is closer to the original, more natural, and offers a wider sense of space.

Offline Liquid Drum

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 661
  • Gender: Male
Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2006, 08:24:32 PM »
This only happens to normal MD's right??

I'm using Hi-MD and I transfer via USB. So far, I've had no problems - the audio sounds the same as on the MD, so I don't think it compresses anymore than it already has.

I believe that I'm going from MD (Atrac, Hi-SP mode) > PC (Wav.) The frequency graphs look fine to me (no cut-off at 15).

I don't see why it would go from atrac > atrac3+ - just doesn't make sense to me.
Mics:
AT933/C

Batt-Boxes, Pre-amps:
CA-9100

Recorders:
Edirol R-09
iRiver H120 (CF Modded)
Sony MZ-RH910 Hi-MD

Video: Canon HV20 E

Offline ThudS

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 1
Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2007, 02:43:48 PM »
....

I don't see why it would go from atrac > atrac3+ - just doesn't make sense to me.

Unless you've forgotten to turn that option off in SonicStage?

Offline boojum

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3633
  • Gender: Male
Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2007, 03:05:14 PM »
This was just covered in another thread.  It was also researched on minidisc.org and discovered to not be true.  A fellow there xferred his files and checked the file(s) in Adobe Audition and saw no degradation as has been described.  Once again, one test is worth a thousand opinions.  Use the RH1 to U/L all your legacy MD's with no fear of having them degraded.

As for saving them as 24 bit; well, if you care to manipulate them on the PC I understand it is a better way to do it, in 24 bit.  It will not improve the sound but will add fewer artifacts during manipulation.  You will have to resample and dither back to 16 bit.

Cheers
« Last Edit: August 19, 2007, 03:07:38 PM by boojum »
Nov schmoz kapop.

Offline westkc3

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 107
Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2007, 03:39:08 PM »
It's been a pain but I've used the optical out on my Sony MDS JE-520 into the optical in of one of my H120s.  I still have about 50 to complete of about 260.  I don't have SoundStage as these were recorded with a Sharp MD so I had to go realtime.  Regardless of the time it's taken me, I'm still very happy I made the switch from MD.

Offline nardo

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 232
    • The Comatorium - The Mars Volta News
Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2007, 12:12:15 PM »
This was just covered in another thread.  It was also researched on minidisc.org and discovered to not be true.  A fellow there xferred his files and checked the file(s) in Adobe Audition and saw no degradation as has been described.  Once again, one test is worth a thousand opinions.  Use the RH1 to U/L all your legacy MD's with no fear of having them degraded.

As for saving them as 24 bit; well, if you care to manipulate them on the PC I understand it is a better way to do it, in 24 bit.  It will not improve the sound but will add fewer artifacts during manipulation.  You will have to resample and dither back to 16 bit.

Cheers
I seriously wish I could believe this because it would save us all a lot of time. Did you read my posts carefully? http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,76899.msg1027426.html#msg1027426
I never said SP/LP2 files are being converted to ATRAC3+ as a standard or as an option that I accidentally might have selected (I surely didn't), SS does never inform you about this step, when you convert to WAV your output files are .WAV but they have been converted to ATRAC3+ (no idea on the bitrate) prior to being converted to .WAV, apparently that is the current workaround for the ATRAC-for-the-PC codec as was stated by someone on the German minidisc forum.
This discussion has nothing to do with HiMD recordings, transfers of those are all lossless and no one has claimed otherwise anywhere, just to make this clear once and for all (not saying anyone in this topic did say so, just trying to keep the information as straight as possible in here).

I've done frequency analysis and spectral analysis on files transferred via standalone deck (TOSlink > TOSlink connection) and compared them to the RH1>USB transfers and there were obvious differences, referred to as cut-offs in prior posts, most noticeably on SP recordings, not so bad with LP2 recordings (which all seem to have drop-offs at around 16kHz, as is obvious since the bitrate is really low, 128kbps, I think). You might want to give this a try yourself if you own a deck - I also read some of the minidisc.org discussion and couldn't open the attachment, other than that I just saw someone who "believed" something. Again, try this for yourself and post the results, I'd love to see a new version of SS/the ATRAC codec handle this differently. I'm on 4.2 still afair (am at work right now so can't check).
Shortly after this was being discussed on ts.com the DSEE feature was introduced to SonicStage (coincidence?), it adds something similiar to DSP to the playback of files, thereby making them sound/appear fuller than they were in the first place. So you might get even different results when playing back your .oma in SS and recording the digital output of your soundcard (internal or external) than when doing a straight transfer via USB or via a deck.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2007, 12:13:52 PM by nardo »

Offline boojum

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3633
  • Gender: Male
Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2007, 09:54:53 PM »
I wish you could believe it, too.  But you choose not too.

Cheers
Nov schmoz kapop.

Roving Sign

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2007, 08:47:17 AM »
I would go on ebay and try to find a stand alone deck with an optical output.

Try to find one contemporaneous to your recorder...Some of the older ones dont read the netMD era stuff - Double check compatibility with the various recording modes...

A friend who hits a lot of bluegrass shows broke his MD - I set him up with a "new" one...I made damn sure I bought him one that only recorded in SP mode(Sony MZ-R37). I also hooked him up with a standalone with a digital output(Sony MDS-101 - i think)...less than 100 bucks total for both pieces.

Now if he makes a recording I want - I go Standalone (optical) > JB3...realtime - but at least its a "digital" transfer - (I wouldn't be surpised if there is an A/D step in there...rather than an software based ATRAC>WAV conversion.) Also makes it easy for him to dump it down to his stand alone CD burner.

I prefer this approach to any "re-recording" way of transferring...

Offline taper420

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 953
  • Gender: Male
Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2007, 05:51:25 PM »
Magic wands > magic box > magic bucket

Offline J.Maye

  • Trade Count: (5)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3241
  • Gender: Male
  • Formerly Phan2001
Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2007, 08:17:17 PM »


 I go Standalone (optical) > JB3...realtime - but at least its a "digital" transfer - (I wouldn't be surpised if there is an A/D step in there...rather than an software based ATRAC>WAV conversion.)

Why would there be an AD step here? Your passing a digital signal to a digital recording AFAIK. I could be wrong, but I think this is the best way to go if you are starting with a "normal" non-HI MD recorded in the highest old school md quality ???

Im planning on doing a bunch of transfers via optical out on a MD player>iriver h120>USB to HD in the next week or so specifically because I dont want to go 1/8th>sound card via analog due to the bypassing of the additional A/D conversion. I wouldnt even bother if there is an AD conversion both ways. 
AKG CK91/92/93/94>mk93/h98>se300b>BM2P+ua5>M10
Or
CA ST11 (C,O)>9100>M10
Busman T mod R4

Offline prof_peabody

  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 4338
  • Team Houston
Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2007, 11:22:10 PM »
The MDS JE-470 mod instructions can be found here:

http://www.mtsu.edu/~hhw2b/470mod.html

 

RSS | Mobile
Page created in 0.194 seconds with 36 queries.
© 2002-2017 Taperssection.com
Powered by SMF
Website Design by Foxtrot Media, Inc., a Baltimore Website Company