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Offline yug du nord

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #45 on: September 02, 2007, 08:11:46 AM »
Some are in LP2 format, and since there is no deck that has an optical output and supports DSP Type-S (at least not that I know of)
My deck, the MDS-JB980QS, does have DSP Type-S and optical-out (as well as coax-out and analog out).

Wow!!!  Did not know that...  looks like I need to start searchin'!!!  Thanks!!! +T ;D
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Offline boojum

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #46 on: September 02, 2007, 11:45:56 AM »
It is hard to believe that a thread on MD transfers would be this long.  Wow!  I guess there is still the interest. 

I had to use my RH1 over the weekend as my SD crapped out.  The SONY is still chugging along.  Granted the SD failing is an anomoly, but it makes em love that little box even more.

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Offline taper420

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #47 on: September 05, 2007, 03:36:02 PM »

An MD recorder is only 16 bits, so the discs would have already been truncated or dithered.  So I don't think that's an issue for this situation. 


Just browsing back through here and noticed this.... I was actually under the impression that SP is recorded at 20 bits... at the very least, the old md recorders had a 20 bit ADC, whether or not all those bits we're recorded I don't know.
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Offline yug du nord

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #48 on: September 05, 2007, 05:00:59 PM »

An MD recorder is only 16 bits, so the discs would have already been truncated or dithered.  So I don't think that's an issue for this situation. 

Just browsing back through here and noticed this.... I was actually under the impression that SP is recorded at 20 bits... at the very least, the old md recorders had a 20 bit ADC, whether or not all those bits we're recorded I don't know.

Ya know...  I thought about that as well...  and maybe I spoke out-of-turn!!! :tomato:  I realized some of the older home md decks claim to have a 24bit sampling rate or a 20bit A/D converter.  I'm sure it must be correct, but not sure how...  since I've alway thought MD discs are 16bit maximum!  So I'll say it again...  I know what I think I know, but what I think I know, I might not know!!!  Anyways...  Good question!!!  Anyone with a good answer???   
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Offline GroundHog420

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #49 on: February 28, 2010, 03:38:58 AM »
Okay, I know this is an old thread, as are all of the threads I have just finished reading, relating to this issue of transferring minidisc recordings to a hard drive. This might end up being a fairly pedantic question as well, but it is what it is....

Originally, my question was also whether there was anything to be gained by a real-time MD transfer to a 24-bit file. After all, we do it with cassettes. Still, at this point I get that it would make a lossy (ATRAC) file just a bigger lossy file, only with less artifacts, which seems moot to me.

My situation is that I picked up a SHARP MD-420 unit some years back, and recorded a tron of shows with it, before realizing the implications of ATRAC compression. At that point, I switched to a Microtrack, and things started looking (and sounding) a whole lot better.

In the meantime, I've got a few hundred minidics sitting here that need to be transferred, so I can store them as data, and can play them on a .flac player on my computers. It seems to me that my sole potion is to run them through an analog cable into the hard drive, which is a shame, since that means by-passing the 4-pole signal, in favor of a standard 1/8" cable, into the soundcard.

As there is no optical out on the unit, and no dedicated "line out" which would establish a sort of "auto-level" output gain into the computer, do I just crank the output volume from the MD until all the way? It seems like the answer would be yes, and frankly, I can play back minidiscs at just about any level, and still capture it satisfactorily on my hard drive, but I'm wondering if any discussion has taken place about setting a recommended output level for capturing on a computer?

Also, what about not capturing as 24-bit, but bumping the sample rate from 44.1 to 48kHz? Mathematically, that seems more appropriate, and that would also more directly affect the dynamic range, so I'd be eager to hear any thoughts on that approach.

Thanks in advance, and if there actually was a discussion about these two points that I missed, sorry!
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Offline dunebug81

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #50 on: February 28, 2010, 06:00:28 PM »
Okay, I know this is an old thread, as are all of the threads I have just finished reading, relating to this issue of transferring minidisc recordings to a hard drive. This might end up being a fairly pedantic question as well, but it is what it is....

Originally, my question was also whether there was anything to be gained by a real-time MD transfer to a 24-bit file. After all, we do it with cassettes. Still, at this point I get that it would make a lossy (ATRAC) file just a bigger lossy file, only with less artifacts, which seems moot to me.

My situation is that I picked up a SHARP MD-420 unit some years back, and recorded a tron of shows with it, before realizing the implications of ATRAC compression. At that point, I switched to a Microtrack, and things started looking (and sounding) a whole lot better.

In the meantime, I've got a few hundred minidics sitting here that need to be transferred, so I can store them as data, and can play them on a .flac player on my computers. It seems to me that my sole potion is to run them through an analog cable into the hard drive, which is a shame, since that means by-passing the 4-pole signal, in favor of a standard 1/8" cable, into the soundcard.

As there is no optical out on the unit, and no dedicated "line out" which would establish a sort of "auto-level" output gain into the computer, do I just crank the output volume from the MD until all the way? It seems like the answer would be yes, and frankly, I can play back minidiscs at just about any level, and still capture it satisfactorily on my hard drive, but I'm wondering if any discussion has taken place about setting a recommended output level for capturing on a computer?

Also, what about not capturing as 24-bit, but bumping the sample rate from 44.1 to 48kHz? Mathematically, that seems more appropriate, and that would also more directly affect the dynamic range, so I'd be eager to hear any thoughts on that approach.

Thanks in advance, and if there actually was a discussion about these two points that I missed, sorry!

of course the easy way would be uploading the discs right to the computer with the latest HIMD recorder. Uploading a full 80 min disc would take about 5 min at the most and you'd have a fully editable wav file once it uploads.
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Offline GroundHog420

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #51 on: March 01, 2010, 12:32:05 AM »
You're obviously not familiar with the unit I mentioned.

Those discs cannot be transferred via a Hi-MD unit, as they were not recorded on that unit, and will not play well with the proprietary software, etc, of the Hi-MD units. I know - I tried, and that's what I learned. That information can also be gleaned from the manuals.

Anyone else, who might be familiar with the technology I've mentioned?

Okay, I know this is an old thread, as are all of the threads I have just finished reading, relating to this issue of transferring minidisc recordings to a hard drive. This might end up being a fairly pedantic question as well, but it is what it is....

Originally, my question was also whether there was anything to be gained by a real-time MD transfer to a 24-bit file. After all, we do it with cassettes. Still, at this point I get that it would make a lossy (ATRAC) file just a bigger lossy file, only with less artifacts, which seems moot to me.

My situation is that I picked up a SHARP MD-420 unit some years back, and recorded a tron of shows with it, before realizing the implications of ATRAC compression. At that point, I switched to a Microtrack, and things started looking (and sounding) a whole lot better.

In the meantime, I've got a few hundred minidics sitting here that need to be transferred, so I can store them as data, and can play them on a .flac player on my computers. It seems to me that my sole potion is to run them through an analog cable into the hard drive, which is a shame, since that means by-passing the 4-pole signal, in favor of a standard 1/8" cable, into the soundcard.

As there is no optical out on the unit, and no dedicated "line out" which would establish a sort of "auto-level" output gain into the computer, do I just crank the output volume from the MD until all the way? It seems like the answer would be yes, and frankly, I can play back minidiscs at just about any level, and still capture it satisfactorily on my hard drive, but I'm wondering if any discussion has taken place about setting a recommended output level for capturing on a computer?

Also, what about not capturing as 24-bit, but bumping the sample rate from 44.1 to 48kHz? Mathematically, that seems more appropriate, and that would also more directly affect the dynamic range, so I'd be eager to hear any thoughts on that approach.

Thanks in advance, and if there actually was a discussion about these two points that I missed, sorry!

of course the easy way would be uploading the discs right to the computer with the latest HIMD recorder. Uploading a full 80 min disc would take about 5 min at the most and you'd have a fully editable wav file once it uploads.
Hey man, that common sense shit won't fly around here, we're from Portland, we're edgy & different or something  ???
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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #52 on: March 01, 2010, 08:49:50 AM »
You're asking the same question the cassette transfer crowd asks...is there any benefit to 24 bit when making an analog transfer. Answer is - its debatable. I favor the "no" side of the argument. But there are sides. (lots of threads on this)

However - analog is far from the preferred method when it comes to MD transfers - so the 24 bit issue is a kinda moot.

I suggest going to ebay and forking out 50 bucks for used standalone MD recorder/player.

You have a microtrack. So you would just go MDcoax > MT.

Some of the Sony standalone decks can produce a 24 bit spdif stream from the ATRAC - so you can remaster in "proper" 24 bits.

I am still confused about the ATRAC > WAV Conversion though...is there any benefit to de-compressing them to 24 bits?

I know some of the early MD had 20 bit ADs...did later ones have 24 bit A/Ds?


Offline dunebug81

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #53 on: March 01, 2010, 09:04:50 AM »
I'm probably the most knowledgeable MD user on this forum so I know what I'm talking about.

Sonic Stage and the Sony RH-1 had no problems uploading hundreds of recordings made with my Sharp MT-90 that uses the same recording process as the minidisc you used.  Bit you seem to know more then I do so I'll let you figure this out on your own.

Perhaps next time you ask for help you should take your head out of your ass. 
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runonce

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #54 on: March 01, 2010, 10:05:19 AM »
You are the most full of yourself, that's for certain. Nice language, by the way. Is there some reason you felt compelled to insult someone for no reason? Is that what makes you an "expert"? Curious.....

You possibly missed the point where I said I already attempted to make the transfers of my older minidiscs on a Hi-MD unit, and it would not allow me to do that via the digital upload, because the discs were not Hi-MD discs.

I'm probably the most knowledgeable MD user on this forum so I know what I'm talking about.

Sonic Stage and the Sony RH-1 had no problems uploading hundreds of recordings made with my Sharp MT-90 that uses the same recording process as the minidisc you used.  Bit you seem to know more then I do so I'll let you figure this out on your own.

Perhaps next time you ask for help you should take your head out of your ass.

Thats the part where your losing us - the point is, some HiMD decks CAN transfer legacy, non-HiMD discs...you're saying it didnt work? It IS possible. So we need to debug your process.

But - you might want to provide a better description of what you have tried - might get better advice.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2010, 10:09:06 AM by runonce »

Offline GroundHog420

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #55 on: March 01, 2010, 11:04:09 AM »
Well, part of the question I was mulling over was indeed about the alleged benefits of converting to 24-bit. I think we're probably in agreement that this might be viewed on a case-by-case basis. I have looked at a few different spectrals done from test analog transfers, and they don't show me anything that provides a strong argument in favor of 24-bit transfers.

Alternately, I was thinking that a 16-bit/48kHz transfer might be useful, as the 48kHz sample rate deals with the part of the data that represents the dynamic range of the recording. This wouldn't really be useful in terms of making changes such as increasing the volume, etc, but might allow some room for minor non-destructive editing.

The other big question I was asking was based on my not being aware that there were some changes made in MD units since the initial run of Hi-MD units. As with a lot of of early MD users, I had been under the impression that the only way to make transfers was via an analog cable, which always struck me as being inefficient, since it would have been reliant on the output volume setting, and horribly subjective in that respect. That's why I still have all my old MD masters. Now I'm glad I did.

Inadvertently, I've now learned that apparently the Sony MZ-RH1 is apparently more developed than its' predecessors (which would not allow USB transfers of pre-Hi-MD discs). I'm afraid I don't recall the Hi-MD model I used to attempt making my transfers, but it wasn't the RH1. From what I gather, the RH1 is the first unit that would allow such a digital transfer. The first line in the following review pretty much answers that question.

Quote from: MDCenter.NL
(this is an excerpt from a review found H E R E.)

Upload of old recordings via USB
Perhaps the most important new function of the MZ-RH1 is the possibility to upload standard format MD recordings. Whereas with earlier generations of Hi-MD it was only possible to upload Hi-MD format recordings, with the MZ-RH1 this is now possible for all recordings (and therefore recordings made with old MD devices).
In order to be able to make full use of this functionality you need to use the updated version of SonicStage 3.4 supplied with the MZ-RH1. The complete version number of this release of SonicStage is 3.4.02.14020. The necessary modified NetMD drivers are also supplied packaged in a new version of the Personal Audio Drivers. Version 4.4.00.11241 in this case. If you have these or later versions of the software installed you will be able to use the MD upload capabilities of the MZ-RH1. Because the MZ-RH1 itself has had to be specially adapted to allow MD uploads it is not possible that you can use the new Sonic Stage version to upload with old Hi-MD devices. The upload of MD recordings will only work on devices that were designed to do so from the beginning. At present therefore only the MZ-RH1. After the software has been successfully installed the upload of old recordings can begin. As soon as a disc with standard MD recordings is put in the MZ-RH1, Sonic Stage will indicate by means of an arrow which tracks can be uploaded or not. This means that in practice microphone recordings, analog in and optical digital recordings can be uploaded. Recordings made via the computer (i.e. via USB) cannot be uploaded because with such recordings the distinction cannot be made between legally transferred music or music which has been purchased for example via the Connect Music Store. Normal MD format discs cannot store enough extra information need to be able to make this distinction.

I bailed on the MD technology fairly quickly when I grasped the concept of ATRAC, so I would have been out of the loop as far as any advances which were made in that field. All I knew for certain was that I was stuck with a bunch of lossy recordings, which sound fine, but are lossy nonetheless. I stopped recording on MD and got a Microtrack, and then an Edirol R09 and a R-04, and never looked back.

So that seems hopeful, if I want to go out and buy a RH1, although it's also seems ironic that I would now need to buy another MD unit in order to convert these older recordings. More likely, though, I'd want to track down something like the Denon DMD-100, or a similar component type model, possibly like the Sony MDS-JB980QS. Sadly, they will still be lossy recordings, because like a lot of folks who jumped on that technology in the early days of MD, I didn't understand the limitations of ATRAC. Still, it's great to discover that there is hope for transferring all these old shows as data in their original state.

You're asking the same question the cassette transfer crowd asks...is there any benefit to 24 bit when making an analog transfer. Answer is - its debatable. I favor the "no" side of the argument. But there are sides. (lots of threads on this)

However - analog is far from the preferred method when it comes to MD transfers - so the 24 bit issue is a kinda moot.

I suggest going to ebay and forking out 50 bucks for used standalone MD recorder/player.

You have a microtrack. So you would just go MDcoax > MT.

Some of the Sony standalone decks can produce a 24 bit spdif stream from the ATRAC - so you can remaster in "proper" 24 bits.

I am still confused about the ATRAC > WAV Conversion though...is there any benefit to de-compressing them to 24 bits?

I know some of the early MD had 20 bit ADs...did later ones have 24 bit A/Ds?
Hey man, that common sense shit won't fly around here, we're from Portland, we're edgy & different or something  ???
she kept playing with the balls for around 2 years after i thought i had seen it all from them.

Offline GroundHog420

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #56 on: March 01, 2010, 11:58:40 AM »
I don’t know about your self-professed level of knowledge, but you are possibly the most full of yourself, that's for certain. Nice language, by the way. Is there some reason you felt compelled to insult someone for no reason? Is that what makes you an "expert"? Curious.....  I never claimed to be knowledgeable in any way regarding MD technology, which I should think would be apparent in the fact that I posted a question here in the first place.

You possibly missed the point where I said I already attempted to make the transfers of my older minidiscs on a Hi-MD unit, and it would not allow me to do that via the digital upload, because the discs were not Hi-MD discs. I did not use an RH-1, which should be somewhat apparent by the fact that I was unable to transfer my older discs via USB. As I have since learned through other channels, that unit added that functionality, which earlier Hi-MD units were lacking.

What you might have offered as a response, since you consider yourself an "expert" in this area, is the knowledge that early Hi-MD units did not offer the ability to upload previously recorded discs via USB, just as I stated in my earlier post. You could have also offered the knowledge that some latter models - such as the RH-1, had been upgraded to include this functionality. You could have also included the knowledge that certain standalone component-type models also offer that functionality, via digital coaxial cables.

For being such a "knowledgeable" fellow, you certainly exhibited very little evidence of any actual knowledge, only self-congratulatory boasting, and a rude remark. I've got a thick skin, so I'm not exactly crying in my beer, but all the same, your comments were certainly unwarranted. Perhaps you might consider taking your own advice regarding the removing of one's own head, before offering "help" to others.

I'm probably the most knowledgeable MD user on this forum so I know what I'm talking about.

Sonic Stage and the Sony RH-1 had no problems uploading hundreds of recordings made with my Sharp MT-90 that uses the same recording process as the minidisc you used.  Bit you seem to know more then I do so I'll let you figure this out on your own.

Perhaps next time you ask for help you should take your head out of your ass.
Hey man, that common sense shit won't fly around here, we're from Portland, we're edgy & different or something  ???
she kept playing with the balls for around 2 years after i thought i had seen it all from them.

Offline GroundHog420

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #57 on: March 01, 2010, 02:00:55 PM »
Ah, but my point is, he may have been correct, but was off-base in his initial reply.

The RH-1 evidently does allow USB transfer of pre-Hi-MD discs. That much seems to be true.

For the record, my early attempts to transfer my older discs were in early 2006. The fellow who loaned me an early model Hi-MD for testing mentioned that his deck was a Sony RH MZ-910, which was a second-generation Hi-MD deck. Not only did that deck not allow a USB transfer of my older discs, Sony's proprietary SonicStage software invited some malware to play on my then-new PC, and interfered with some of the network directories. That was fun.

I never said I had used a RH-1 to attempt transferring my pre-Hi-MD discs. I mentioned I had a Sharp MD-420 - if he's that "knowledgeable", that would have at least given him a clue that I was not up to date with the current MD technology. There's no shame in being a bit behind the times, is there? That's why I was asking a question in the first place.

Therefore, his assertion that the "easy way" would be to use the latest RH-1 deck kind of assumed that I would know what he was talking about. Until he mentioned that particular deck, I would have had no way of even knowing that the technology had been upgraded since the first run of Hi-MD decks hit the market; particularly as I stopped using minidiscs about four years ago. Apparently, the RH-1 was introduced a few months after my tests with the RH MZ 910. Who knew? Also, I'm finding varied reports, some of which indicate that the RH-1 was discontinued in 2007. If that's true, it rules out that being an "easy" option. If that's not true, it still would mean spending a good chunk of cash on a relatively dated (and possibly unsupported) piece of equipment.

At any rate, that's a nice gesture of you to defend your friend, but it doesn't change the fact that he really was being a jerk, and could have offered more information than he provided. That's the basic problem with a lot of these forums - quite a few people are content to just tap out a knee-jerk one-line response to something, rather than to engage themselves in a deeper discussion of the issue at hand. Generally, I find that "too little information" seems to be the rule of thumb on the internet. Just sayin'.


For being such a "knowledgeable" fellow, you certainly exhibited very little evidence of any actual knowledge, only self-congratulatory boasting, and a rude remark. I've got a thick skin, so I'm not exactly crying in my beer, but all the same, your comments were certainly unwarranted. Perhaps you might consider taking your own advice regarding the removing of one's own head, before offering "help" to others.

Come on now. You told him basically that he didn't know what he was talking about when he was correct and he got huffy about it. He should have been polite, but that can set some people off. Sounds like your skin may not be as thick as you think it is.
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Offline dunebug81

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #58 on: March 01, 2010, 03:37:21 PM »
As for being an expert that I am not but as one of the few people who use and love the minidisc format I have learned quite a bit over the years.

The RH1 is the last MD unit that Sony produced and after years of a great teachnology going to waste they finally got it right. It is the only unit that supports USB 2.0 and the uploading of HIMD, NetMD, and legacy ATRAC recordings. The RH1 has been discontinued but the M200 can still be purchased new and is the identical model with 2 exceptions. 1) The Mac os is supported but only with PCM recordings 2) It comes with a worthless $50 microphone.

I wasn't rude to you. You told me that I didn't know what I was talking about.  I only mention that I was knowledgeable in the subject because there are so few of us on here who know much, if anything, about minidisc.

If you're looking for straight digial uploads in 16bit then I'm sure you could find someone to do the transfer for you. I would help you out but I'm a truck driver and come home once a month at the most  and I couldn't get it done for you in a timely fashion.  However if you can't find someone else to do the transfers for you and are on no hurry to get them back I would be happy to transfer you discs to whatever medium you wish. 
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runonce

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Re: master md's>analog out>24 bit???
« Reply #59 on: March 01, 2010, 04:11:10 PM »
Quote
Sadly, they will still be lossy recordings, because like a lot of folks who jumped on that technology in the early days of MD, I didn't understand the limitations of ATRAC. Still, it's great to discover that there is hope for transferring all these old shows as data in their original state.

Look - they will ALWAYS be lossy...no matter what you do. That loss is built in to ATRAC. Not coming back. Its like going mp3 > wav. The data is thrown out for good.

Dont take this the wrong way - But I think pining over the virtues of 24 bit when you are remastering a lossy source via a portable deck's headphone output is bit ridiculous.

The best you can hope for is the most direct ATRAC > WAV conversion.

A. Hi-MD > Computer

B. Standalone > Microtack (via spdif)

I think - for the most part - these can be considered equivalent processes.(probably some quibble room here)

I think the jury is still out as to the virtue of reconstructing the wav as a 24bit file. If there was any archival advantage...obviously that would be great. But you'd still want 16bits if you need to go to CD.

Another MD user and member here had a standalone MD that had the spdif output set at 24 bit as default. (according to the manual). So - thats why I wonder. Sony made it an option...before there were any real 24 bit devices available (for the most part). Why bother unless it made a difference?

I know I've owned Sony standalones with 20 bit ADs - so some confusion there for sure.

 

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