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Offline moricle

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A-B Configuration
« on: January 31, 2016, 11:54:29 PM »
I have been using my matched Rode M5s (cards) for a while now, and always have done an A-B setup.  I have a simple microphone bar (cannot adjust spacing of mics, see picture below) and assumed the A-B configuration would be easiest/best.  Perhaps X-Y is an option with this mic bar.  Having read more about configurations, it seems this config choice is very monophonic.  My goal is to record the best sounding recording I can of the band (good volume, decently wide sound image, minimize crowd noise, etc.)  Therefore I am trying to wrap my head around X-Y vs. DIN vs. A-B vs. ORTF vs. NOS, so I can make an informed decision.  I'll most likely post questions about those configs soon..

For now, what's the opinion of using my matched M5s in an A-B configuration?  I'm generally pleased with the sound I get, but my last two recordings seemed to need some work in terms of my choice of mic placement (independent of mic configuration).   If I can, I place my mics dead-center of the two PAs and have the mics raised about 7.5 - 8 feet high.


Here are some of my A-B recordings as reference:

https://archive.org/details/mantras2016-01-20.flac

https://archive.org/details/kw2016-01-16.flacRodeM5aud
LMA: https://archive.org/details/@moricle
Mics: Rode M5 Cards, CA-14 Omnis, CA-14 Cards
Decks: Tascam DR-60D, Tascam DR-22WL
Lineage: SD > Audacity (amplify/normalize) > FLAC

Offline Sebastian

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Re: A-B Configuration
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2016, 01:56:27 AM »
With a bar like the one you have, your mics are really close to each other. Therefore, they'll pick up almost the same sound and your stereo image will be a bit weak. When you say you're running A-B, are your mics positioned in parallel to each other? If yes, you could just rotate them a bit to get a wider angle. You'll probably not be able to get the full spacing as required by DIN/ORTF/NOS specs, but your stereo image should get at least a little better.

You might also want to consider getting another stereo bar. Adjustable ones aren't really that expensive. Try this one, for example.

That being said, I don't think your recordings sound that bad. Keller Williams suffers a bit from the crowd noise, but that's nothing a different mic config would have prevented. The only thing you could have done is to get the mics higher up. The Mantras recording seems to be panned a little bit to the left. Is it possible that your left mic pointed to a stack and the right one didn't?

Especially in small, bad-sounding places, I found that simply pointing the mics at the stacks generally works best for me. In one of the places I tape, DIN or ORTF are just too wide. The mics would point to the side walls and pick up a lot of unwanted reverberation. But with all things in taping, you just need to experiment a bit and find out what works best for you.

Offline moricle

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Re: A-B Configuration
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2016, 02:07:55 AM »
EDIT:  Thanks for taking the time to listen.  To answer the first question: Yes; by A-B, I mean that the mics are facing parallel towards the stage.  I'll look into getting a new mic bar.


That being said, I don't think your recordings sound that bad. Keller Williams suffers a bit from the crowd noise, but that's nothing a different mic config would have prevented. The only thing you could have done is to get the mics higher up. The Mantras recording seems to be panned a little bit to the left. Is it possible that your left mic pointed to a stack and the right one didn't?

I was pretty close to center for that show, but it is possible my left mic had slightly higher gain, or was positioned slightly not parallel.


Especially in small, bad-sounding places, I found that simply pointing the mics at the stacks generally works best for me. In one of the places I tape, DIN or ORTF are just too wide. The mics would point to the side walls and pick up a lot of unwanted reverberation. But with all things in taping, you just need to experiment a bit and find out what works best for you.


I think I understand what you mean.  I should probably point the mics towards the stacks usually.  What about a situation where you are forced to setup your mics off to the right or left?  In other words, if I couldn't set up my mics directly in the dead center between the stacks and was a good 6 or more feet off to the right..  how would you orient the mics and adjust the gain?
« Last Edit: February 01, 2016, 02:09:31 AM by moricle »
LMA: https://archive.org/details/@moricle
Mics: Rode M5 Cards, CA-14 Omnis, CA-14 Cards
Decks: Tascam DR-60D, Tascam DR-22WL
Lineage: SD > Audacity (amplify/normalize) > FLAC

Offline Sebastian

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Re: A-B Configuration
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2016, 05:11:35 AM »
I think I understand what you mean.  I should probably point the mics towards the stacks usually.  What about a situation where you are forced to setup your mics off to the right or left?  In other words, if I couldn't set up my mics directly in the dead center between the stacks and was a good 6 or more feet off to the right..  how would you orient the mics and adjust the gain?

What you should and shouldn't do depends on the situation and which results you like better. I'm just saying that it's worth a try pointing the mics at the stacks without paying too much attention to their angle.

If you're not in the center, it also depends. If you're way back, the effect of being a few feet off to either side isn't that big. But when you're closer to the stage, you could try X/Y to compensate for being off-center. X/Y has a weaker stereo image than the spaced mics configs, but has worked well for me in such situations.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: A-B Configuration
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2016, 08:57:28 AM »
For audience or on-stage recording of a band or ensemble (as opposed to mic'ing a piano or something), A-B needs a spacing of, oh say 15" or more at the least to work optimally.  More like a couple feet or more.  3' is a good starting point.

Having read more about configurations, it seems this config choice is very monophonic.  My goal is to record the best sounding recording I can of the band (good volume, decently wide sound image, minimize crowd noise, etc.)  Therefore I am trying to wrap my head around X-Y vs. DIN vs. A-B vs. ORTF vs. NOS, so I can make an informed decision.
Especially in small, bad-sounding places, I found that simply pointing the mics at the stacks generally works best for me. In one of the places I tape, DIN or ORTF are just too wide. The mics would point to the side walls and pick up a lot of unwanted reverberation. But with all things in taping, you just need to experiment a bit and find out what works best for you.

PAS = point at stacks (PA speakers). For best results, it is important to modify the spacing between mics based on the angle between them.  See these threads-

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=153112.0
&
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=167549.msg2087409#msg2087409




What about a situation where you are forced to setup your mics off to the right or left?  In other words, if I couldn't set up my mics directly in the dead center between the stacks and was a good 6 or more feet off to the right..  how would you orient the mics and adjust the gain?

Discussed just a few days ago here-
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=175968.msg2173382#msg2173382
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline acidjack

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Re: A-B Configuration
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2016, 09:18:58 AM »
I second Sebastian's recommendation of a good mic bar, and Gutbucket's always-thorough explanation about spacing vs. angle. In general for audience taping at a distance, favor increasing the former and decreasing the latter....
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
Pres/Power: Aerco MP2, tinybox v2  [KCY], CA-UBB
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My recordings on nyctaper.com: http://www.nyctaper.com/?tag=acidjack | LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/acidjack | twitter: http://www.twitter.com/acidjacknyc | Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/acidjacknyc

Offline bombdiggity

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Re: A-B Configuration
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2016, 06:09:08 PM »
In general for audience taping at a distance, favor increasing the former and decreasing the latter....

This ^.  From a practical perspective to my ears I agree it doesn't make much sense to point the mics too far off from straight ahead when back in a room.  IMO "stereo separation" becomes overvalued from a relatively distant position.  By the time the sound gets more than a third of the way back (and often a lot less than that) in any room where a PA is being used it's all pretty much an even wash (the sound is fully mixed by then).  Mic angle becomes more about enhancing or limiting the degree of room reverb back there (and I favor limiting those impacts, which argues for mics straight ahead). 
 
With good cardiod mics IMO you get a very directional (and satisfying) representation of the soundstage (location of specific sound sources) when very close just pointing the mics straight ahead.  That seems sort of the definition of what they should do...  If I'm really close (stage lip) on a wide stage I may turn the angle out a little wider (provided there isn't a PA or loud crowd). 

I don't like to move the angle much off dead ahead without a very good reason.  I haven't played with spacing much at all (falling more into the "if it ain't broke" camp) but may experiment more with that at some point. 
« Last Edit: February 01, 2016, 07:11:30 PM by bombdiggity »
Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: A-B Configuration
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2016, 06:48:47 PM »
Um, no offence meant, but there are a number of contradictory statements in that post.

AJ was emphasizing using increased spacing from further back- That is, using more spacing (the former) and less angle (the latter) from farther back; and conversely, less spacing and more angle from closer up front.

X/Y (with has zero spacing between microphones) requires a very wide angle between microphones to work optimally, so the mics end up pointing way off-axis.  It's the opposite extreme of configurations which are pointed more or less directly ahead and which will benefit from increased spacing between mics to compensate for the minimal angle between them.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline bombdiggity

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Re: A-B Configuration
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2016, 07:09:55 PM »
Um, no offence meant, but there are a number of contradictory statements in that post.

AJ was emphasizing using increased spacing from further back- That is, using more spacing (the former) and less angle (the latter) from farther back; and conversely, less spacing and more angle from closer up front.

X/Y (with has zero spacing between microphones) requires a very wide angle between microphones to work optimally, so the mics end up pointing way off-axis.  It's the opposite extreme of configurations which are pointed more or less directly ahead and which will benefit from increased spacing between mics to compensate for the minimal angle between them.

Agreed. 

I was very imprecise with "X-Y-ish".  I did not mean to imply an actual X/Y configuration and should edit but don't have time to for now, so deleted that statement...  I'm sure that part would not make sense read in context of true X/Y.  I think the rest makes sense or at least makes sense in terms of the results I hear. 

This: "using more spacing (the former) and less angle (the latter) from farther back; and conversely, less spacing and more angle from closer up front" (which is a strategy we all agree with) is essentially a more precise way of saying "PAS" (assuming you're in the center between the stacks), at least in terms of angle, with the wider spacing an attempt to use distance between the mics to compensate for the lack of stereo definition that in nearly all cases would come with being more distant from the sources (assuming the standard mono mix with little or no panning). 

It does help to conceptualize the trade-offs. 
« Last Edit: February 01, 2016, 07:27:03 PM by bombdiggity »
Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: A-B Configuration
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2016, 08:16:42 PM »
Okay, that's fair.

My only comments on what you just posted are that I don't think being centered or off-center matters much with regard to mic spacing verses angle, since spacing verses angle is more of a close/far (direct/reverberant-sound ratio) optimization thing.  Centered verses off-center is more of a balanced Left/Right image thing, in which case it works to close your eyes and just point the entire mic array at the apparent acoustic center, regardless of mic spacing / mic angle arrangement.  The resulting image will then at least be centered, even if it isn't as nicely spread out and perfectly balanced Left/Right as it would from a more centered recording location.

And, I think recording a mostly mono PA allows for somewhat of a wider spacing than may be optimal otherwise for a more stereophonic source, because a "monoish" PA tends to fill any "hole in the middle" of the playback image.  The audience sound and room reverberance components may be "over-wide" on their own, but then the mono-PA fills that hole in the middle.  That's one reason I think super wide omnis sometimes work so well outdoors- the music fills the middle between a wide, diffuse and enveloping audience ambience.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Hypnocracy

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Re: A-B Configuration
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2016, 08:28:32 PM »
Moricle

Pick up a K&M Stereo bar...they are less than $15 shipped from ebay

http://www.ebay.com/itm/K-M-Microphone-Bar-Dual-Mic-Holder-/361477569147?hash=item5429bdfa7b:g:FS0AAOSwL7VWn5-C

Get Two 3/8 to 5/8 barrel adaptor and two 5/8 to 3/8 adapters...stacked together they make a nice Spacer to offset the mics in the vertical for ORTF and XY and even DIN if your microphones are long.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mic-Clip-Inner-Thread-Adaptor-3-8-to-5-8-Stand-Accessory-5-8-to-3-8-/170884909933?hash=item27c988cb6d:m:m5PYQFBYa7gp62bGYGmpXQg'

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Microphone-Mic-Screw-Clip-Thread-3-8-to-5-8-Adaptor-new/170865923712?rt=nc&_soffid=5011836908&_soffType=OrderSubTotalOffer&_trksid=p5731.m3795

Now you are ready to try almost all of the patterns and find the ones that you like in the rooms you frequent. Standard Patterns are best in the sweet spot...if you can set up where you like...walk the room when the band is warming up or the house music is playing...find that spot that sounds good to you. Usually located on line between the apex's of a Right angle Triangle and a equal lateral triangle...Stacks being at the baseline corners & you the apex.

Try running DIN or NOS at the Lincoln on the first tier, The Blind Tiger front of the sound board, Pour House Balcony...Southland I've ran a Point At Stacks with a 12" space back at the booths...

Save ORTF for on stage...XY on a band you don't care about...IMO

AB is still fine to run...although I'd like a bit more space than either of these bars will give.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2016, 08:49:24 PM by Hypnocracy »
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