Topic: Tascam/Teac VR-10 Digital Recorder

[LikeASong]

Thank you for your kindness -
please don't worry it was not taken as harshness -
I'm here to learn as much as I can and have to understand when critique is needed.

Anyway hopefully we now can acknowledge that the Teac VR-10 is capable of making almost unbelievably good recording ala cd2go brilliant recordings of Grace Potter.

(...)

I think it sounds pretty good, again - "all things considered", the VR-10 was set on a table front center about 6 feet away from the stage - next on the left of the table in the main stage picture (next to a Tascam DR-07MkII that was also recording......) while I was taking photos.

Nice recordings overall. Specially impressive is the second one, with the floor noise being almost imperceptible. I like how the recorder handled the trumpet dynamics, and although I'm not a fan of strong bass, this is just the good amount. Drums aren't lost either (congas are, though, and that's understandable). I guess a guitar would have been a bit lost if present, specially with the trumpet. Keyboard is there, also a bit drowned when all the instruments kick in, but it's understandable too.

My grandfather is a musician and producer and I was with him the night he had to tape a big band (2 trumpets, 2 saxophones, 1 tuba, 1 trombone and other stuff I can't remember, together with 2 guitars, 1 piano, bass, drums, etc) for an official release. He told me it was the most challenging taping he had ever done, since the brass dynamics used to overpower the rest of the instruments, but if they were lowered in the mix, they became too muddy and there was a lot of detail lost in their performances. He ended up mic-ing each instrument twice (with one cardioid and one omnidirectional mic each, and did different EQs and filterings for each) and the general stage sound with 4 omnis, and the overal mix was simply superb.
I myself have taped similar stage configs as yours, with one drumkit, one keyboard, one bass, one guitar and one sax or one trumpet many times, and I never achieved anything similar to your recording (that said, I haven't taped a show like that since 2011, my knowledge was smaller than it is today - but anyway).

I say all of this this just to tell you that I think I know what I'm talking about when I say you achieved a great recording with close-to-zero effort and with close-to-zero budget. And that, my friend, is something that not many people can say


PS. Good on you for choosing Sting for the sound test. I love him, and I love The Police. I've grown up with that music!

[LikeASong]

Hey guys, wow--who would have thought that of all my recordings, this one is getting the most attention, guess I can sell my DPAs now    Anyway, this was definitely recorded with the Teac's internals. As the info file states I placed it on the left balcony ledge which is in line with the left stack. This is a great example of how location trumps all. And luck helps too--I think the PA levels, mix, mic location, etc. all lined up for this one. Even when comparing with the next night in the same spot, this one sounds better to me. In less than ideal conditions (higher dB setting, farther back (these are omnis), more bass), I wouldn't expect the mics to perform quite as well. I'm glad I have it--I usually carry it to every show as a backup in case I don't get in with my full rig, at least I know I can make a listenable recording regardless 

Below is another GPN show with the Teac; I was FOB, deck in my hat, and this one has much more prominent (though not distorted) bass. Impressive that a recorder of this size and cost can handle these dBs:

http://archive.org/details/gpn2010-12-10.teacvr10.cd2go.flac24

I've wondered how much better the Tascam DR-05 omni mics are, as I believe they are larger capsules and can handle 125dB; I have the DR-07 MKII (cardioids) and have been pleased with the results, definitely lacking some bottom end though.

Let me know if there is anything else I can add here...   

-james

Wow, James, thanks a lot for chiming in. First of all, congratulations for your recordings using this tiny thing we're discussing in this thread. They are impressive, specially if you take into account the cost of the recording and the effort/sacrifice needed to make such recordings.

I didn't know Irving Plaza has got balconies at all, but then again I haven't been there and I only know it because of watching some videos and stuff. Your Grace Potter recording there is truly superb and location, of course, is the key. Surely some of the other factors you mention (excellent PA equalization and levels, maybe even the crowd behaviour or the venue's condition that night) might have helped, but the thing is there. A bad gear with excellent conditions will *never* get you an excellent recording, IMO. So the gear is good You only have to get the best conditions and the good recording will happen eventually.

[UnknownVT]

Nice recordings overall. Specially impressive is the second one, with the floor noise being almost imperceptible. I like how the recorder handled the trumpet dynamics
...
My grandfather is a musician and producer and I was with him the night he had to tape a big band (2 trumpets, 2 saxophones, 1 tuba, 1 trombone and other stuff I can't remember, together with 2 guitars, 1 piano, bass, drums, etc) for an official release. He told me it was the most challenging taping he had ever done
...
I say all of this this just to tell you that I think I know what I'm talking about when I say you achieved a great recording with close-to-zero effort and with close-to-zero budget. And that, my friend, is something that not many people can say

WoW! thanks for your kind comments LikeASong, much appreciated.

Like you said it's kind of like real estate - location, location location.
I understand that as I've been a big music fan, photographer, reviewer and former casual taper for many years -
I also associate with a lot of local musicians and studio producers/engineers, so something probably has rubbed off on me.

I don't think I'll ever really graduate from being an inattentive casual taper -
as I do photography at gigs  -
but I am pretty impressed with the SQ of both my recorders this VR-10 and the Tascam DR-07MkII for the minimal effort demanded.

PS. Good on you for choosing Sting for the sound test. I love him, and I love The Police. I've grown up with that music!

OK overall take on that more "controlled" recording - I compared the recording against both my "live" sound system environment, and against the vbr MP3 ripped from the actual CD played on the computer.

To my ears the recording is overall more muffled - there is a slight increase in bass balance - but not necessarily to the good - the bass is less defined/crisp - and that goes for the upper frequencies - the whole reason I chose that track was for the cymbals sizzle - again it was less crisp.

Now having pointed out the shortcomings - I remain impressed with the recording - in isolation without any comparison - it sound pretty darned good - it was only after several repeated (almost to the point of nausea) continuous back to back comparisons that I could identify with confidence which was which (of course this may bring in the question of my listening/ears - but I think I have pretty good listening )

[UnknownVT]

A bad gear with excellent conditions will *never* get you an excellent recording, IMO. So the gear is good You only have to get the best conditions and the good recording will happen eventually.

Well put -
on any gear - one only has to get one single superb result to be able to say its performance is good
- as you pointed out, it's impossible for bad gear to do that.

I'll give the analogy in photography -
most understand the lens is one of the most critical components -
It doesn't need for every single photo to be superb to prove any lens' IQ (image quality)
- it only needs one really technically good photo to prove the IQ -
as it is impossible for a poor lens to do that.

So that's why I said that recording of Grace Potter by cd2go proves how good the VR-10 and internals can be -
(given the right circumstances and operator)

[F.O.Bean]

Now yinz know why I strive to be FOB/DFC at almost every show I record

[UnknownVT]

Direct comparison of Teac VR-10 to the Tascam DR07MkII -

from the jazz gig above -

the VR-10 was set on a table front center about 6 feet away from the stage - next on the left of the table in the main stage picture (next to a Tascam DR-07MkII that was also recording......)

recorded literally side-by-side.
both manual rec level
(Note: DR-07MkII had peak protection On - but I don't think it did anything except at the beginning while on pause of setting the initial rec level.)
If it's of any significance the VR-10 was on the right next to the DR-07MkII.

24bit 48kHz originals -
split in Audacity -
AudioConverter to VBR MP3 -
ReplayGain (default 89db) added with MP3gain.

Ali Solo -  flugelhorn solo -

VR-10 Download 4.54MB (same file as previously posted)

DR-07MkII Download 4.73MB


Kinah Boto - very quiet, then dynamic section -

VR-10 Download 10.19MB (same file as previously posted)

DR-07MkII Download 10.63MB

EDIT to ADD
Here's my controlled SQ test - Sting's Lazarus Heart from CD on my home sound system -
VR-10 recording is the same file as previously -
Tascam DR-07MkII literally recorded minutes ago:

VR-10 SQtest Download 2.43MB (same file as previously posted)

DR07MkII SQtest Download 2.55MB

[cd2go]

A controlled test I did of using the REC button to split/start a new file,
the 4th press froze the recorder -
I just did it again and this time it was on the 3rd press that froze,
one more time, and it was the 5th press that froze -
so it is not consistent
- when frozen - the only resort was to remove the battery to get the VR-10 to work again. 
If it's of any meaning the last file created is 0 bytes - which actually upsets the VR-10 if accessed.

Have you noticed this kind of behavior?

I'd like to take advantage of your experience of the VR-10 - of the good points,
and if possible avoiding or mitigating its weak points.

I have not noticed the deck freezing, but also I have never hit more than record and let it run. If it would help you I can certainly test mine to see if it is a widespread issue? Other than that I think the Teac speaks for itself: cheap, decent mics, easily concealable (have you seen the white colored model, that thing really looks like a cell phone), good battery life considering only 2AAAs. I would like to hear how the A/D stage is when feeding it a line signal, maybe I'll try that one day patching out of my MixPre. The best part of the VR-10? Well, the kickstand, of course 

-james

[UnknownVT]

I have not noticed the deck freezing, but also I have never hit more than record and let it run. If it would help you I can certainly test mine to see if it is a widespread issue?

Only if it's no trouble.

All I did was to start recording and about every 30 secs or so I pressed the Rec button to split the recording file - on both my samples eventually the recorder(s) would freeze where no buttons would respond in any meaningful way - and the recorder will not turn off - only recourse is to remove the battery.

Other than that I think the Teac speaks for itself: cheap, decent mics, easily concealable
...
good battery life considering only 2AAAs.
...
The best part of the VR-10? Well, the kickstand, of course 

Yep, I am very appreciative of the kick stand too.  I have use something to prop up the Tascam DR-07MkII.

My VR-10 lasts about 5hr 20mins on a pair of eneloop AAA

But the DR-07MkII is astonishing - lasting over 15hours on a pair of rechargeable LSD AAs
- both recording at 24-bit 48kHz

What do you consider the main SQ differences between the VR-10 and DR-07MkII?

I have posted direct comparison clips above for my 2 recorders.

Interesting what you said earlier about the mics on the DR-05 handling up to 125db SPL - that is impressive.
I am beginning to suspect that my first recording on the Teac VR-10 (the sample I returned for replacement) which had some horrible distortion - may have been mic overload -
I did use ALC and thought it may have been limitations in that - but I could not see any clipping on Audacity waveform display.

Thanks,

[UnknownVT]

A sample from a gig with difficulties -
acoustic instruments at an eatery - so lots of talking -
VR-10 set on table (on kick-stand) center - about 6ft away from band -

Teac VR-10 internals
24bit 48kHz original -
split in Audacity -
foobar2000 to VBR MP3 -
ReplayGain album gain to 85db added with MP3gain.

Download 3.1MB

[LikeASong]

Did they have any kind of amplification system at all or was it purely acoustic? The guitar at 1:20, where the violin stops, suggests it was all acoustic but you never know. Doesn't sound bad at all but obviously the abundant chatter makes it harder to appreciate. Catchy tune, by the way!

[UnknownVT]

Did they have any kind of amplification system at all or was it purely acoustic? The guitar at 1:20, where the violin stops, suggests it was all acoustic but you never know. Doesn't sound bad at all but obviously the abundant chatter makes it harder to appreciate. Catchy tune, by the way!

It's a jazz standard - Blue Skies - Irving Berlin -
"Blue skies smiling at me - Nothing but blue skies do I see ."

They had  pick-ups on the instruments, and tiny little amps, but I could also hear the instruments directly - especially the guitar, since its sound hole was somewhat facing in my/VR-10 direction.

I actually have tracks with people yelling - pity that such good performances get so little attention.

Sample this one:

Download 4.79MB
Swing 48 - a Django tune -
the guitarist Charles Williams is a world authority on Django Reinhardt

[UnknownVT]

Direct comparison of Teac VR-10 to the Tascam DR07MkII -
recorded literally side-by-side.
Ali Solo -  flugelhorn solo -
VR-10 Download 4.54MB (same file as previously posted)
DR-07MkII Download 4.73MB

Kinah Boto - very quiet, then dynamic section -
VR-10 Download 10.19MB (same file as previously posted)
DR-07MkII Download 10.63MB

Here's my controlled SQ test - Sting's Lazarus Heart from CD on my home sound system -
VR-10 SQtest Download 2.43MB (same file as previously posted)
DR07MkII SQtest Download 2.55MB

Listening to these I can tell the differences -

Controlled SQ test - although was not recorded side-by-side (and it would have been simple enough to do that) -
that was the whole point - other than perhaps setting the record levels - to me it is very reproducible/repeatable - since it is a CD played on my home sound system.

I am actually quite impressed by how close the recordings get to the CD ripped to the same vbr MP3 - even on close listening on good headphones - (well, at least for one of the recorders) -

Teac VR-10 in comparison is overall somewhat muffled, there is more bass emphasis and the treble is not as crisp - but overall it is still pretty good - especially considering there is the variable of my home sound system.

DR07MkII - now this was a revelation to me - it was overall a lot crisper/clearer sounding - but it lost some bass extension - it was so close that most of the time I would confuse the CD ripped to vbr MP3 (direct) to the DR-07MkII recording - now, taking into account that there is my home sound system intervening - this is quite remarkable, almost astonishing.

The two live tracks -
on both again the DR-07MkII was crisper with better clarity - but the bass although cleaner was not as good as the VR-10.
It seems I would prefer the DR-07MkII but wish it had more bass perhaps not that of the VR-10 because that seemed a little more muddled - BUT having made the comparison I think I would be happy with either recording.

Slightly Off Topic - since I had talked about the DR-07MkII - I recorded this last night of the same band from that noisy eatery -
this time in a better setting and better sound system with vocals - on the Tascam DR-07MkII

about 6ft away from stage, DFC -
DR-07MkII 24bit 48k original
internal mics set on A-B
split out in Audacity
foobar2000 converted to vbr MP3
ReplayGain (89db default) added with MP3Gain

Download 4.24MB

[UnknownVT]

I did this recording on the VR-10 on Thursday - and I thought it was pretty good 
- well, OK I am still a noob - so could do with constructive critiques, please.

This was an excerpt (last 5mins) of a tune from a suite at a jazz orchestra concert held in a church, with (to me) very good acoustics, and an attentive sound-person.

The VR-10 was set on the edge of a balcony slightly left of center (and soundboard) more or less from this viewpoint:


The excerpt has a quiet section then eventually goes into a full blown orchestral climax - simple to complex sound-wise and I think is a severe test and shows off the VR-10 capabilities (and shortcomings).

VR-10 internal mics
24bit 48k original
split in Audacity
foolbar2000 convert to vbr MP3
ReplayGain (89db default) added with MP3Gain)

Download 6.18MB

Please let me know what you think?

Thanks.

[LikeASong]

I think that the main focus in this matter should be the performance of this device DIRECTLY COMPARED to its price, size and usability. Of course the Tascam DR-07MkII will perform better many many times, but that's only to be expected for a device that costs and weighs 3 times as much (if not more) than the VR-10. A Sony PCM-D50 will perform much better than the Tascam DR-07mkII too, but it costs 500 bucks. It's all relative. I am more than convinced that the TEAC VR-10 is a gem for its price and I will be getting one as soon as I find an intersting enough deal inc- shipping costs.

By the way, I agree with your comparisons. The TEAC sounds a bit more muffled overall, but the Tascam lacks a bit of depth. It's all a matter of taste - but both sound very good for their price, that's not to be discussed at all

[UnknownVT]

I think that the main focus in this matter should be the performance of this device DIRECTLY COMPARED to its price, size and usability.

You are right and I agree with you!

This is the main reason why despite me liking the overall sound of the Tascam DR-07MkII more - that I actually deliberately use the Teac VR-10 considerably more - it is smaller more portable and discreet and the cheap price makes me less hesitant in taking it out more.

But to say it's only good for its price - is kind of like "damning with faint praise" -
I am not for a moment claiming it is the bestest in the world -
but the VR-10 sounds pretty darned good
punching way above its weight class - evidence?
please don't go by my noob recordings -
but please listen to cd2go's recording of GPN -
http://www.archive.org/details/gpn2011-03-09.teacvr10.cd2go.flac24

By the way, I agree with your comparisons. The TEAC sounds a bit more muffled overall, but the Tascam lacks a bit of depth. It's all a matter of taste - but both sound very good for their price, that's not to be discussed at all

Again in agreement - for the price they are amazing - even not counting the price - they are still quite amazing - like I said I'd be happy with recordings from either - well, actually I am as evidenced by my recording count -
and I know potentially when all the stars line up I could get as a good a recording on the VR-10 as cd2go's brilliant one of GPN.  Although with the last jazz orchestra recording I think I may be getting there - it's funny that the position was similar left of center from the balcony.

From doing all those comparisons - I feel the VR-10 probably would do better in venues where the sounds can be too bright, or too lively/reflective - so its slightly muffled characteristic could help compensate for the overly bright environment.

The DR-07MkII may be more suitable for those gigs with more or heavier bass - as its slight lack of bass may help tone/tame the overly bass heavy venues (that's a lot of gigs) - and for acoustic gigs - where the crisper recording could help. 

Thanks again for you comments.