Topic: HD DVD or Blu Ray>720p/1080i

[ts]

Which hi def dvd player to buy with a display that doesn't support 1080p? I see Toshiba has an inexpensive HD DVD player that does up tp 1080i. My 42 in. Hitachi is only a couple years old and not ready to buy a new display yet.

[dunebug81]

its ill in which movies you think are the best.  there are quite a few that are coming out on only blu-ray or only hd-dvd.  you may want to hold off on getting something just yet....the multi format players will be dropping in price for Christmas.  i like blu-ray as lionsgate puts out almost all their new stuff on blu-ray.   picture wise I don't see any difference. 

[John Kelly]

They're basically the same thing when it comes to how the movies look and sound.  I prefer HD DVD due to my views on Sony, and so far I haven't had a movie come out on Blu-Ray to make me regret that decision. 

But Sears is going to have the Toshiba HD-A3 on sale for $169.99 on Black Friday, if that sways your decision at all (and it comes with Bourne Identity and 300 in the box).

[ts]

I understand the differences between the 2 formats. My problem is my TV. I don't have a 1080p set. 720p is all I have for now and the big box retailers keep telling me a purchase of a hi def DVD player, either format, is a waste.

[John Kelly]

Big box retailers are dead wrong.  They just want to sell you an expensive TV with their loss-leading HD player.

[ts]

Big box retailers are dead wrong.  They just want to sell you an expensive TV with their loss-leading HD player.

I tend to agree with you on that. However a salesperson at Crutchfield put it this way, "Why spend 25-30 bucks on the movies when you can set your current DVD player (Denon 2910) to upconvert (proper term?) your SD DVD's to 720p". Or something like that. And he didn't try to sell me a 1080p display.

So the way I see it is, Blu Ray is out until I get a 1080p display and HD DVD is questionable based on the above statement. Yea or nay Which leads me to my next question. Is 720p better than 1080i?

[Belexes]

But Sears is going to have the Toshiba HD-A3 on sale for $169.99 on Black Friday, if that sways your decision at all (and it comes with Bourne Identity and 300 in the box).

I have had my eye on this unit, $299 at Best Buy when not on sale.  Do you think Best Buy will honor Sears Black Friday price?  I have a $125 in gift card money from BB and $0 from Sears.

[H₂O]

I am in on the Blu-Ray side as the capacity of Blu-Ray is better

Blu-Ray supports 25GB per layer with a maximum of 8 layers for 200GB (only disc's with upto 2 layers are currently avail - I have no idea if you will need a new player when the number of layers go above 2)

HD-DVD supports only 15GB per layer with a maximum of 2 layers for 30 GB (a new addition to the format is currently being developed to push to 3 layers at around 45GB)

This doesn'y mean that Blu-Ray has better picture than HD-DVD, but to me it means that the technology at least from a storage perspective would potentially have a longer lifecycle.

[willndmb]

for me bluray has more movies that i would like including concerts
but at the store (as i don't own one yet) i can not see a difference between blu or hd

imo if you have a upconvert player that does a nice job, as i do there is no need to pay big bucks for a new player
i would hold off and wait for a sale like black friday or longer for price drops

speaking of black friday, i don't know about where you guys are but around me you need to get there at least by midnight to get anything decent and thats hoping you get out of the store alive and also not jumped in the parking lot
for ps3 the 2 walmarts 3 mins & 10 mins from me had 4 people robbed in the parking lot 1 by gunpoint, no no its not even a bad area - in fact the police said after that thats prob why people came to this store to rob other, because no one coming out would expect it

[Belexes]

speaking of black friday, i don't know about where you guys are but around me you need to get there at least by midnight to get anything decent and thats hoping you get out of the store alive and also not jumped in the parking lot

The top 2 stores for Black Friday are Wal-Mart and Best Buy.  Best Buy does vouchers, or at least mine did, at about 5:00 AM or so.  Employees walk down the line and you get a voucher for the item you need to buy and then can come back later in the day to pick it up. (like a same day rain check with no $ down).  The only problem is that if you want the $300 laptop or whatever the "top" item will be, the store quantity is limited, so people have to camp out for those items.  My store allows you to set up a tent next to the building. 

Wal-Mart was a piece of cake. 24 hour shop, so they put all the ad items out in the freight aisles with poly-wap around the skids of products, then at 5:00 AM employees removed the poly-wrap and everyone dives in for what they need.

[spreadheadtom]

I picked up the Toshiba HD-A30 last night at Best Buy...they have this promotion going right now:

Their promo: 9 free movies

2 in Box (300 + Bourne Identity) + 2 Your choice in Store + 5 Mail In Movies




At $20-25 a movie thats $180-$225 worth of HD-HVDs.

The player was 399.99....figure in about 225.00 worth of free movies and it turns into a nice deal.

  Tommy

[dunebug81]

I picked up the Toshiba HD-A30 last night at Best Buy...they have this promotion going right now:

Their promo: 9 free movies

2 in Box (300 + Bourne Identity) + 2 Your choice in Store + 5 Mail In Movies




At $20-25 a movie thats $180-$225 worth of HD-HVDs.

The player was 399.99....figure in about 225.00 worth of free movies and it turns into a nice deal.

  Tommy

That is a good deal.  I was thinking about buying an xbox hddvd drive cause you get heroes + 2 free instore movies + 5 free by mail.  heroes on HD is $100 just by itself.

[John Kelly]

I am in on the Blu-Ray side as the capacity of Blu-Ray is better

Blu-Ray supports 25GB per layer with a maximum of 8 layers for 200GB (only disc's with upto 2 layers are currently avail - I have no idea if you will need a new player when the number of layers go above 2)

HD-DVD supports only 15GB per layer with a maximum of 2 layers for 30 GB (a new addition to the format is currently being developed to push to 3 layers at around 45GB)

This doesn'y mean that Blu-Ray has better picture than HD-DVD, but to me it means that the technology at least from a storage perspective would potentially have a longer lifecycle.

That is simply not true.  Blu-Ray doesn't have a single disc outside of the labs bigger than 50gb.  Toshiba's 51gb HD DVD discs have been fully approved by the HD DVD board and should see release soon after consumer testing.  The expectation is that all HD DVD players will be able to play these newer, higher than Blu-Ray capacity discs with a simple firmware update (which is easy on HD DVD, since an ethernet connection is required in the spec).

Both companies are working on multi-layer huge capacity discs, but they're still in R&D labs. 

[ts]

imo if you have a upconvert player that does a nice job, as i do there is no need to pay big bucks for a new player
i would hold off and wait for a sale like black friday or longer for price drops

That was the point of this thread. Since I do not have a 1080p display but do have an upconvert capable DVD player, why spend the money on hi def DVDs and a new HD player. It seems that Blu Ray definitely needs the 1080p display to make it worth it, but there are some who think that a 720p display with HD DVD will provide a big jump in pic quality over my current setup which is Denon 2910>Hitachi 720p. Would just like some more input here before I go running around spending more money

[Belexes]

At my Best Buy, they sat me in front of Batman Returns (non-HD) and then they threw in the HD release and I watched the same scene and there was a vast difference in quality, but I was watching it on either 1080i or more likely 1080p.  If I were you, I would go to a store and have them do a demo for you with something similar to your setup.

[ts]

At my Best Buy, they sat me in front of Batman Returns (non-HD) and then they threw in the HD release and I watched the same scene and there was a vast difference in quality, but I was watching it on either 1080i or more likely 1080p.  If I were you, I would go to a store and have them do a demo for you with something similar to your setup.

I'd say it was 1080p. There is a huge difference when they play that game with you. But when veiwing HD on 720p or SD upconvert to 720p, the difference is supposedly minimal. The 1080i thing I just don't get. Big box sales people say 720p is better than 1080i, yet Comcast broadcasts HD in 1080i.

[dunebug81]

At my Best Buy, they sat me in front of Batman Returns (non-HD) and then they threw in the HD release and I watched the same scene and there was a vast difference in quality, but I was watching it on either 1080i or more likely 1080p.  If I were you, I would go to a store and have them do a demo for you with something similar to your setup.

I'd say it was 1080p. There is a huge difference when they play that game with you. But when veiwing HD on 720p or SD upconvert to 720p, the difference is supposedly minimal. The 1080i thing I just don't get. Big box sales people say 720p is better than 1080i, yet Comcast broadcasts HD in 1080i.

CBS HD (1080i) looks better then FoxHD (720p) to me on my set for normal TV shows.  If watching a football game then FoxHD looks better because of the fast action the picture doesn't get all pixelated.

[John Kelly]

I wont buy SD DVDs anymore.  After getting HD DVD on my *720p* set there was such a huge difference that I can't go back.

[spreadheadtom]

Wal-Mart tomorrow......Toshiba HD-A2 on sale for $98.00!!!!!!

[dunebug81]

Wal-Mart tomorrow......Toshiba HD-A2 on sale for $98.00!!!!!!

It may or may not make a difference to some but this player does NOT output 1080p.  Hell even for $100 you can't really beat it.  I'm pretty sure you will get the 5 free movies with it as well.

[George]

My tv does 1080p, but my cable box pushes 1080i and yeah, it looks way better than 720p (ie. CBS HD vs. Fox HD).  The difference is night and day.

[jhirte]

I'm thinking I need an A30....

[deadhoarse]

I'd say it was 1080p. There is a huge difference when they play that game with you. But when veiwing HD on 720p or SD upconvert to 720p, the difference is supposedly minimal.

Trust me, the difference between true 720P and SD upconvert 720p is not minimal.  Upconverting basically just scales the video to a higher resolution - The resolution wasn't there in the first place, the idea is just that the upscaling hardware is supposed to do a better job scaling the video up than your TV set.

Oh, that Best Buy deal where you get 9 free HD DVD's?  Part of the deal was to get 2 additional HD DVD's valued at $34.99 or below for free in store.  There was a bug in their system where you could get any 2 additional HD DVD products for free.  I picked up the Planet Earth HD DVD box set ($99.99) for free...

[phanophish]

imo if you have a upconvert player that does a nice job, as i do there is no need to pay big bucks for a new player
i would hold off and wait for a sale like black friday or longer for price drops

That was the point of this thread. Since I do not have a 1080p display but do have an upconvert capable DVD player, why spend the money on hi def DVDs and a new HD player. It seems that Blu Ray definitely needs the 1080p display to make it worth it, but there are some who think that a 720p display with HD DVD will provide a big jump in pic quality over my current setup which is Denon 2910>Hitachi 720p. Would just like some more input here before I go running around spending more money

Upconverting does improve image quality, but not to the level as a native higher def image.  It's like saying why waste money on 24 bit recording.  I can always just record 16 bit and up convert with Sound Forge or something.  You then become dependent on the upconvert algorithm to accurately guess what the missing information is.  Sometime is is right, sometimes not. 

FWIW.  I just picked up a HD-DVD player for the $100 deal they had at WalMart.  It was a one day deal but I'm guessing it may show back up.

Basically in all of the reviews I have read when it comes to actual image quality between BlueRay and HD-DVD there is no difference.  There are some slight capacity advantages to BR, but as of now there is no content that takes advantage of them.  It is more of a driver for data storage when those drives begin to take off.  HDDVD is making up some ground there though so the jury is out. 

For me it was a matter of cost of playback.  BR players are all still in the $400 range.  Toshiba, the main HDDVD manufacturer is running a deal where you get 5 free movies by mail so basically for the cost of 5 movies, I got the player for free.

You will definelt see a image quality improvment moving from any standard DVD or upconverting player to a native HD device and content. 

The 720p vs 1080i argument can be content dependent.  Fast moving content can sometimes have artifacts when there is a lot of motion such as sports or action movies.  The overall quality boils down to being content dependent somewhat.  Either one looks much better that standard def 480i.

[John Kelly]

FWIW.  I just picked up a HD-DVD player for the $100 deal they had at WalMart.  It was a one day deal but I'm guessing it may show back up.

Actually that's not very likely.  They were basically selling off the remaining HD-A2 stock, and I doubt there is much if any left now.  The A3 will go on sale probably as low as $150, but I doubt we'll see the $99 mark again this year.

But I could be wrong.

[willndmb]

At my Best Buy, they sat me in front of Batman Returns (non-HD) and then they threw in the HD release and I watched the same scene and there was a vast difference in quality, but I was watching it on either 1080i or more likely 1080p.  If I were you, I would go to a store and have them do a demo for you with something similar to your setup.

I'd say it was 1080p. There is a huge difference when they play that game with you. But when veiwing HD on 720p or SD upconvert to 720p, the difference is supposedly minimal. The 1080i thing I just don't get. Big box sales people say 720p is better than 1080i, yet Comcast broadcasts HD in 1080i.

i am not sure what tw cable/channels send out for a signal but the discovery 1080i stuff looks a million time better then most of the stuff on and channel

[Belexes]

This retailer has a 2-day sale on the A3 for $169:

http://www.americantv.com/

$10 less than what I bought it for at Best Buy.

[willndmb]

This retailer has a 2-day sale on the A3 for $169:

http://www.americantv.com/

$10 less than what I bought it for at Best Buy.

amazon has it for 169 too
and sears has it till noon tomorrow for 169

amazon was 199 with 8 movies last week, the prob is none of the movies were anything worth getting imo

[John Kelly]

Comes with 300 and Bourne Identity in the box - both great flicks if you ask me.

[H₂O]

I am in on the Blu-Ray side as the capacity of Blu-Ray is better

Blu-Ray supports 25GB per layer with a maximum of 8 layers for 200GB (only disc's with upto 2 layers are currently avail - I have no idea if you will need a new player when the number of layers go above 2)

HD-DVD supports only 15GB per layer with a maximum of 2 layers for 30 GB (a new addition to the format is currently being developed to push to 3 layers at around 45GB)

This doesn'y mean that Blu-Ray has better picture than HD-DVD, but to me it means that the technology at least from a storage perspective would potentially have a longer lifecycle.

That is simply not true.  Blu-Ray doesn't have a single disc outside of the labs bigger than 50gb.  Toshiba's 51gb HD DVD discs have been fully approved by the HD DVD board and should see release soon after consumer testing.  The expectation is that all HD DVD players will be able to play these newer, higher than Blu-Ray capacity discs with a simple firmware update (which is easy on HD DVD, since an ethernet connection is required in the spec).

Both companies are working on multi-layer huge capacity discs, but they're still in R&D labs. 

I never said 200GB was outside of the labs but it has been developed.  See:
http://www.digitalartsonline.co.uk/news/index.cfm?newsid=4430
http://www.engadget.com/2006/04/12/tdk-hard-at-work-on-8-layer-200gb-blu-ray-disc/
http://www.engadget.com/2006/04/28/tdk-ok-were-done-with-the-200gb-recordable-blu-ray/

Sony R&D had these in 2004 and TDK in 2006

Also the important point is HD-DVD is pegged at 17GB per layer where as Blu-Ray can handle 25GB per layer or 45% more capacity per layer - this means for a data capacity point Blu-Ray is superior.

They are developing 51GB HD-DVD's as you say at 17GB per layer but still it takes 3 layers of HD-DVD to equal 2 layers of Blu-Ray.  The 51GB HD-DVD spec was just approved a few days ago.
http://www.neowin.net/news/main/07/11/18/dvd-forum-approves-triple-layer-hd-dvd-version-20

Overtime HD-DVD may be able to support 8 layers as well but no one has developed this and the max capacity would be 17GB x 8 or 136GB vs 200GB for Blu-Ray

[John Kelly]

I am in on the Blu-Ray side as the capacity of Blu-Ray is better

Blu-Ray supports 25GB per layer with a maximum of 8 layers for 200GB (only disc's with upto 2 layers are currently avail - I have no idea if you will need a new player when the number of layers go above 2)

HD-DVD supports only 15GB per layer with a maximum of 2 layers for 30 GB (a new addition to the format is currently being developed to push to 3 layers at around 45GB)

This doesn'y mean that Blu-Ray has better picture than HD-DVD, but to me it means that the technology at least from a storage perspective would potentially have a longer lifecycle.

That is simply not true.  Blu-Ray doesn't have a single disc outside of the labs bigger than 50gb.  Toshiba's 51gb HD DVD discs have been fully approved by the HD DVD board and should see release soon after consumer testing.  The expectation is that all HD DVD players will be able to play these newer, higher than Blu-Ray capacity discs with a simple firmware update (which is easy on HD DVD, since an ethernet connection is required in the spec).

Both companies are working on multi-layer huge capacity discs, but they're still in R&D labs. 

I never said 200GB was outside of the labs but it has been developed.  See:
http://www.digitalartsonline.co.uk/news/index.cfm?newsid=4430
http://www.engadget.com/2006/04/12/tdk-hard-at-work-on-8-layer-200gb-blu-ray-disc/
http://www.engadget.com/2006/04/28/tdk-ok-were-done-with-the-200gb-recordable-blu-ray/

Sony R&D had these in 2004 and TDK in 2006

Also the important point is HD-DVD is pegged at 17GB per layer where as Blu-Ray can handle 25GB per layer or 45% more capacity per layer - this means for a data capacity point Blu-Ray is superior.

They are developing 51GB HD-DVD's as you say at 17GB per layer but still it takes 3 layers of HD-DVD to equal 2 layers of Blu-Ray.  The 51GB HD-DVD spec was just approved a few days ago.
http://www.neowin.net/news/main/07/11/18/dvd-forum-approves-triple-layer-hd-dvd-version-20

Overtime HD-DVD may be able to support 8 layers as well but no one has developed this and the max capacity would be 17GB x 8 or 136GB vs 200GB for Blu-Ray

It was approved before the last time I posted - that was approval of the 2.0 spec, the other was 1.9. 

[willndmb]

how long will it take to burn a HD or Blu disc 
shit sometimes it seems to take forever burning 4 or 8 gb

[Sheed]

don't know if anyone is interested but www.dealcatcher.com has a coupon code and a link to a philips outlet sale, you can get a refurb bluray player for 179.  also some nice deals on tv's, etc.

[willndmb]

don't know if anyone is interested but www.dealcatcher.com has a coupon code and a link to a philips outlet sale, you can get a refurb bluray player for 179.  also some nice deals on tv's, etc.

i can't get anything to load except the front page
and that is taking a long time

there we go
i might grab one of these

[ianstone]

i just got a 42" plasma (1080P) (panasonic)

anyone have any rec's on a player to get?

looks like the toshiba hd-35 has some of the best reviews but its pricey...


anyone have any recs?

[spreadheadtom]

i just got a 42" plasma (1080P) (panasonic)

anyone have any rec's on a player to get?

looks like the toshiba hd-35 has some of the best reviews but its pricey...


anyone have any recs?

I have the A30 and like it.....a friend has the A3 and he likes it........


not much help, I know.

[John Kelly]

i just got a 42" plasma (1080P) (panasonic)

anyone have any rec's on a player to get?

looks like the toshiba hd-35 has some of the best reviews but its pricey...


anyone have any recs?

Did you snag one of the Amex ones that I was trying to get?  Gotta wait 'til 3 for my next chance...

Edit - and to answer your question I'd get an A30.  A3 might be enough as well depending on how far away from your set you sit.

[ianstone]

i just got a 42" plasma (1080P) (panasonic)

anyone have any rec's on a player to get?

looks like the toshiba hd-35 has some of the best reviews but its pricey...


anyone have any recs?

Did you snag one of the Amex ones that I was trying to get?  Gotta wait 'til 3 for my next chance...

no, but that amex thing is virtually impossible. waste of time if you ask me...

I did get a fantastic deal on it via sears though... my delivery date got pushed back from 11/26 (my bday) to 12/7....

It was on sale for 1199 (marked down from $1799) and if you paid with your sears card (during the week before thanksgiving, i believe the 17th or so is when we ordered) you got a $150 rebate on your sears card, making the total $1050 before taxes.
Then, since they pushed back my delivery date they offered (after a little bitching) to give me an additional 10% off... so should be a $105 or so discount, bringing my total down to
$945 for the tv....

a steal if you ask me...

so now i need to figure out which player to get.

i believe the a-3 doesn't output 1080p - just 1080i.
i'm not sure about the a-30...

in my research, it seems like the a-35 is the choice - but maybe it'll be best to wait until january?

[ianstone]

oops, my bad. looks like the a-30 DOES output 1080p while the a-3 does 1080i/720p

i figure if i have the 1080p set, i should get a 1080p player...

any major differences between the a-35 and the a-30?

[John Kelly]

oops, my bad. looks like the a-30 DOES output 1080p while the a-3 does 1080i/720p

i figure if i have the 1080p set, i should get a 1080p player...

any major differences between the a-35 and the a-30?

I *think* it's just multi-channel analog output.  www.avsforum.com is a good place to check, though.

[ianstone]

thanks, +T

keep me in the loop if any of you hear of any HD DVD specials