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Author Topic: Portable Larvy AD10?  (Read 24279 times)

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Offline carlbeck

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Re: Portable Larvy AD10?
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2008, 07:46:11 PM »
Dan I would say almost if not all of us are using condensers, you are correct.
I know you like, tape for people's approval and stuff, and wave your tapes around like they're your dick...  but even you can't actually think section tapes from philips sound good.  



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Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: Portable Larvy AD10?
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2008, 07:55:26 PM »
Since we are on the topic of powering a/c audio gear via an inverter, it is worth mentioning that the common modified sine wave units are far from ideal. The Exeltech is a true sinewave.  The spectrogram of a preamp's noisefloor is dramatically different on wall a/c vs. a modified sinewave inverter:

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,71722.msg960770.html#msg960770

Offline Dan Lavry

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Re: Portable Larvy AD10?
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2008, 02:11:07 AM »
Since we are on the topic of powering a/c audio gear via an inverter, it is worth mentioning that the common modified sine wave units are far from ideal. The Exeltech is a true sinewave.  The spectrogram of a preamp's noisefloor is dramatically different on wall a/c vs. a modified sinewave inverter:

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,71722.msg960770.html#msg960770


The Tripp-lite inverter I used for my alarm backup is not required to be particularly clean. Of course I can see potential problems with dirty inverters used for audio, especially when the waveform has significant amount of high frequency content, which can find its way into the signal path, by one of a number of mechanisms of interference.

You said: "The spectrogram of a preamp's noise floor is dramatically different on wall a/c vs. a modified sine wave inverter", but while you can show it to be the case, it is worthwhile to note that different preamps may be impacted very differently to various disturbances. In fact, I stand by that statement for virtually all analog gear.

Take a single OP amp, or a discrete stage or what not. You can measure it , or you can often look at data sheets of opamps and alike... The terminology is PSRR (power supply rejection ratio). The rejection (commonly expressed in dB) is very much a function of frequency content, and tends to be worse at higher frequencies... So you start with the power source, then you figure the rejection of the power supply, then you figure the rejection of the circuits... It is the combined rejection which counts. Some micpres will have fantastic rejection, others will have poor rejection... Same is true for other gear...

Having said it, I do agree that micpres are inherently extra sensitive at the front end circuitry, because whatever gets in there, even a small amount of garbage, will be amplified right along with the signal.

Regards
Dan Lavry

Offline mblindsey

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Re: Portable Larvy AD10?
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2008, 09:56:11 AM »

Here is a question:
Of course, most pro recordings use condensers. Condensers are great, but they also have some "issues", relative to dynamic mics. First, dynamics are more robust, and many condensers are relatively fragile. Second, with condensers, one needs to be careful regarding mechanical motion of the cables (such as tapping on the cable), to avoid "thump" sounds. That is because a cable has capacitance, and when charged to 48VDC, you tap it, the capacitance changes for a moment, which generates a voltage "spike".
The above weaknesses seem to me to be more of an issue for portable applications, while dynamics offer robust operation with fewer issues. Yes, of course the condenser yields more output, and very often better response, but there are a few dynamics out there that are pretty nice. So is the majority using condensers? That would be my guess, but I do not really know.

Regards
Dan Lavry


Dan:

I think you are correct on the "more output, and very often better response" observation.  Although, I have seen some good recordings made with dynamics.

When I stepped into this hobby I took a completely non-technical approach to my choice in mics.  I listened to a bunch of recordings made with many different mics, and picked out something that sounded good to my ears.  I think that's the way a lot of people here choose gear.  Over several decades I think this community has gravitated to certain brands/models because they've heard great recordings made with them.  Simple as that.  If it sounds good, it is good...and we'll lug a bigger battery around for phantom to get that sound we're looking for.

Shock mounts go a long way towards reducing the thumps that you mentioned.  I've had drunks grab my mic stand to catch their balance and never heard it on play back (Sabra's SSM-1).

--Michael


« Last Edit: March 21, 2008, 10:04:18 AM by mblindsey »
Mics:  Microtech Gefell m200/M20/nBob Actives>PFA, CA-11
Pre's: USB Pre2, 1x V3, 2x V3 w/optimod, MP2, Church Ugly
Decks: SD MixPre 6 II, R44 Oade Concert Mod, M10
Playback: Grace m9xx->Sen HD 650, Fostex TH-X00, HIFIMAN HEXX
Mixing: RME Fireface UFX->Reaper/Izotope->Yamaha HS8

Offline Weirdness

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Re: Portable Larvy AD10?
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2008, 11:01:17 AM »
Wow!!!
    Very exiting to have a great designer on the forum.  Funny too, I had recently noticed the new Lavry ADC online and the A/C only thing made me quickly erase the whole thing from memory.  I for one think that a high quality portable ADC would sell and this is precicely the reason that I have not sold off my V2 as yet.  If the unit were around the same physical size as a V2 and could run off of a 6v battery, it would be a killer piece in the field.  The metering on the AD10 looks great too and having adjustable gain is definitely a must.  I ran a friends Benchmark AD2K+ for awhile and not having continually adjustible gain was something that was a minus on that unit.   I woud say that the Apogee AD500 was a real treat to use, adjustable gain, no 48v or headphone out or DAC required.  The only drawbacks with that piece were really that it was a bit big in size and the 12v battery was a pain to lug around.           

Otherwise, I have heard such great things about Lavry products in general there is no doubt that a portable AD10 would be a winner.  Hopefully sometime in the near future I'll have a DA10 running in my playback system as well, I've wanted to have a listen to that piece for some time and have heard nothing but good things about it.  Anyways, count me in on this one, if you can come up with a great sounding portable ADC I'm in for sure...

Offline Dan Lavry

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Re: Portable Larvy AD10?
« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2008, 07:06:15 PM »

Here is a question:
Of course, most pro recordings use condensers. Condensers are great, but they also have some "issues", relative to dynamic mics. First, dynamics are more robust, and many condensers are relatively fragile. Second, with condensers, one needs to be careful regarding mechanical motion of the cables (such as tapping on the cable), to avoid "thump" sounds. That is because a cable has capacitance, and when charged to 48VDC, you tap it, the capacitance changes for a moment, which generates a voltage "spike".
The above weaknesses seem to me to be more of an issue for portable applications, while dynamics offer robust operation with fewer issues. Yes, of course the condenser yields more output, and very often better response, but there are a few dynamics out there that are pretty nice. So is the majority using condensers? That would be my guess, but I do not really know.

Regards
Dan Lavry


Dan:

I think you are correct on the "more output, and very often better response" observation.  Although, I have seen some good recordings made with dynamics.

When I stepped into this hobby I took a completely non-technical approach to my choice in mics.  I listened to a bunch of recordings made with many different mics, and picked out something that sounded good to my ears.  I think that's the way a lot of people here choose gear.  Over several decades I think this community has gravitated to certain brands/models because they've heard great recordings made with them.  Simple as that.  If it sounds good, it is good...and we'll lug a bigger battery around for phantom to get that sound we're looking for.

Shock mounts go a long way towards reducing the thumps that you mentioned.  I've had drunks grab my mic stand to catch their balance and never heard it on play back (Sabra's SSM-1).

--Michael




Am not "for" or "against" condensers. dynamic or ribbons. My post was an inquiry of what is being most used in portable settings. The more "stationary" applications is almost completely based on condensers, and I suspect that the main reason for it (not the only reason) is the higher output level. Of course it does not come "free", because the condenser requires an energy source (other then the sound air vibrations) . The dynamic and ribbon mics do not, so I thought it possible that people will use dynamic mics more often for portable applications. The ribbon yields the weakest output, yet it has been getting a bit more popular lately, especially for solo piano, acoustic guitar...

Yes, a lot of people use their ears, and I am all for it. I am a musician (I play piano and accordion), and I use my ears. After all, music is for the ears :-) 

In my opinion, there is too much of a gap between "ear people" and "technical people". The ear people insist that the ear is all that matters. So very often I see someone listening to something and mistakingly expanding their conclusions with far overreaching generalizations. I see technical people look at specs, not realizing that one can have an inaudible 1% distortion and an irritating .01% distortion...

On one side of the equation, one can not do everything by ear. A designer can, and should verify how a product sounds. But getting to an end result that sounds great is not done by ear. It is done by engineering. Say you have a disturbing 7KHz tone. The ear can hear it, but it can not tell you if it is due to radio interference, power supply noise, circuit oscillations, aliasing of high frequency energy, intermediation... The ear is no substitute for an ohm meter, scope, audio test system...
On the other side, the designer should be very aware of the ear, and that is not at all an easy task. The ear is NOT an FFT, the ear is NOT an oscilloscope, though it does share some "elements" of an FFT and a scope.

The "difficult part" happens when people have different SUBJECTIVE tastes. When I started designing for audio I realized very quickly that I need to separate the objective from the subjective. I decided to stay with what is OBJECTIVLY good, and get as far as I can from what is SUBJECTIVE. In order to do it, I separated all the audio gear (generically) into 2 lists:

1. Gear that needs to be transparent.
2. Gear that is designed to alter the sound.

We do not want our speaker wires to do EQ. We do not want the amplifiers to compress the sound. We do not want the power amplifier to yield reverb... In fact, ideally, we would be doing great if we can have a perfect reproduction of the acoustic performance, and for that, one needs all the elements in the chain to be as transparent as possible.

At the same time, the music production person (recording, mixing, mastering...) may choose to alter the sound, and for that we have equipment such as EQ, compressors, reverb, limiters...

If the micpre, converters, amplifiers, mixers, speakers and more color the sound, there is no good way to take the coloration out. The music production person is being controlled by the gear. However, if the gear is as transparent as possible, one can alter it as they wish with tools designed for alteration. One may like the coloration of some gear, but the same coloration over and over? I like salt in my soup but not on my desert. One may enjoy seeing the world through pink tinted glasses, but there are times that blue tint works better, or no tint at all. The first real life test of my first Lavry Engineering AD (AD122) was to record YoYo Ma. I did not want to alter his Stradivarius cello sound... One may love tubes, but you leave YoYo alone... At minimum you want to record it as accurately as you can, and alter it later...

So now you know what I think :-)

Regards
Dan Lavry

   


Offline scb

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Re: Portable Larvy AD10?
« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2008, 08:25:28 PM »
transparency is the name of the game!

Over the years, i've owned portable ADC's from Graham Patten (ADC-20, too digital and artificial sounding), Benchmark (Sonic AD2k+, aka the ad2402, very transparent and awesome at 24 bit, a little thin at 16 bit), apogee (mini-me, a little too colored for my taste), grace design (lunatec v3...I can't really put my finger on what I disliked about the ADC except to say I simply prefer the sound of my current ADC), and the Mytek Stereo 192.  The Mytek is my current box and the one that i've run for the last 3 years or so.  It's the only portable box that Mytek makes, and it runs off of 7 or 8+ volts.  I think Michal said it needs a minimum of 7 volts, but I'm forgetting his exact words that he told me when I bought the box in 2004.  I've been running it off of a 9 volt lithium battery pack with no issues, and have routinely run it for over 3 hours with juice to spare on a 9v, 5400mAH battery.  It doesn't get too hot at 9V, though if you give it 12, that extra juice can definitely be felt in the form of heat

Anyway, if there were a portable Lavry unit, it's definitely something I'd look into...

Offline mblindsey

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Re: Portable Larvy AD10?
« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2008, 12:19:17 PM »
So now you know what I think :-)

Regards
Dan Lavry


No disagreements here. 

I hope though this forum exchange we've opened another potential market for your products.  Please keep us updated if you decide to enter the field recording market, as I'm sure there is no shortage of people in this forum who would be willing to tell you exactly what feature sets in a product would be important to this group of potential customers.

Thanks again for posting here.  It is wonderful to have industry experts drop by and interact.

Regards,
Michael Lindsey
Mics:  Microtech Gefell m200/M20/nBob Actives>PFA, CA-11
Pre's: USB Pre2, 1x V3, 2x V3 w/optimod, MP2, Church Ugly
Decks: SD MixPre 6 II, R44 Oade Concert Mod, M10
Playback: Grace m9xx->Sen HD 650, Fostex TH-X00, HIFIMAN HEXX
Mixing: RME Fireface UFX->Reaper/Izotope->Yamaha HS8

Offline Dan Lavry

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Re: Portable Larvy AD10?
« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2008, 01:29:55 PM »
So now you know what I think :-)

Regards
Dan Lavry


No disagreements here. 

I hope though this forum exchange we've opened another potential market for your products.  Please keep us updated if you decide to enter the field recording market, as I'm sure there is no shortage of people in this forum who would be willing to tell you exactly what feature sets in a product would be important to this group of potential customers.

Thanks again for posting here.  It is wonderful to have industry experts drop by and interact.

Regards,
Michael Lindsey

Thank You Michael,

I am trying to figure out what the needs are for a portable unit, and it is not always as easy as it seems.
For example, I was thinking about a stereo unit, but reading some comments, there may be some preference for a 4 channel unit, which will obviosly must be bigger (more XLR connectors, more circuits...) , will require more power, will cost more... Then there is the question of the prefered memory: based on the posts, my guess was incorrect, laptops are not the prefered choice...

I appreciate the various comment but I still have much to learn regarding "the most desirable features" in portable recording, on top of best sound and product reliability.

Regards
Dan Lavry 



Offline sygdwm

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Re: Portable Larvy AD10?
« Reply #24 on: March 24, 2008, 01:37:52 PM »
i would think that a dc powered 2 channel analog pre would suffice for the larger part of the demographic here
mics: (4)akg c460b(a60,mk46,ck1x,ck1,ck2,ck3,ck61,ck63)
pres: oade m148/edirol wmod ua5
recorders: marantz stock671/oade acm671/fostex busman vintage fr2le

(P.S.: On a threaded discussion board like this one, there's no need to repeat someone's post when you reply to them; everyone can see all the messages in the thread.)

Offline Dan Lavry

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Re: Portable Larvy AD10?
« Reply #25 on: March 24, 2008, 01:51:15 PM »
i would think that a dc powered 2 channel analog pre would suffice for the larger part of the demographic here

2 Channel micpre without an AD? I was thinking about a combination of Pre and AD, while trying to figure out the best memory storage. The reason? It would be easier to handle fewer pieces, less interconnecting cables between various units and less interconnections to the battery. But I can also see some very good reasons to having a separate micpre.

Is there a general preference for separate pieces (pre, AD, memory...)? Is there a preference for "multi function gear"?

Regards
Dan Lavry
www.lavryengineering.com

Offline mblindsey

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Re: Portable Larvy AD10?
« Reply #26 on: March 24, 2008, 01:51:45 PM »

Off the top of my head, I would vote for:

1.  Able to be powered by 6-12V DC
2.  2 x Good Pre's
3.  Good AD
4.  S/PDIF out
5.  Analog out
6.  Provides phantom
7.  Rugged, yet small-ish enclosure (~6-9”L x ~6-9”W x ~2-3”H)
8.  Priced between $1-2K

--Michael
Mics:  Microtech Gefell m200/M20/nBob Actives>PFA, CA-11
Pre's: USB Pre2, 1x V3, 2x V3 w/optimod, MP2, Church Ugly
Decks: SD MixPre 6 II, R44 Oade Concert Mod, M10
Playback: Grace m9xx->Sen HD 650, Fostex TH-X00, HIFIMAN HEXX
Mixing: RME Fireface UFX->Reaper/Izotope->Yamaha HS8

Offline mblindsey

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Re: Portable Larvy AD10?
« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2008, 02:26:48 PM »

Is there a general preference for separate pieces (pre, AD, memory...)? Is there a preference for "multi function gear"?

Regards
Dan Lavry
www.lavryengineering.com

My personal preference is to just get a S/PDIF signal and use the "bit bucket" of my choice (in the field).  However, there are a lot of people here that like all the conveniences that come with all-in-one solutions. 

Like my Grace Designs Lunatec V3, I want another device that is at home in the field and in my rookie basement project studio.  But, one that is different enough to justify owning both (like a “clear, tube, transformer, or complex” feature).

--Michael

« Last Edit: March 24, 2008, 07:15:51 PM by mblindsey »
Mics:  Microtech Gefell m200/M20/nBob Actives>PFA, CA-11
Pre's: USB Pre2, 1x V3, 2x V3 w/optimod, MP2, Church Ugly
Decks: SD MixPre 6 II, R44 Oade Concert Mod, M10
Playback: Grace m9xx->Sen HD 650, Fostex TH-X00, HIFIMAN HEXX
Mixing: RME Fireface UFX->Reaper/Izotope->Yamaha HS8

Offline JasonSobel

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Re: Portable Larvy AD10?
« Reply #28 on: March 24, 2008, 02:29:31 PM »
Is there a general preference for separate pieces (pre, AD, memory...)? Is there a preference for "multi function gear"?

in general, the preference of most is "multi function gear".  many people use something like the Grace V3 or the Apoogee MiniMe for both the pre and A/D.  Just about everyone I know of who uses a Sound Devices 722 uses it for both A/D and storage (obviously).  And many people, for convenience, will run mics straight into the Sound Devices units and utilize the on-board mic pres, A/D, and storage.

on the other hand, there are also many people who think that a piece of gear designed for a specific function will perform that one function better than the "multi function" pieces of gear.  So you still get people running seperate pre-amps, seperate A/D's, and seperate recording decks.  but the general trend is combining functions into a single piece of gear.

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Re: Portable Larvy AD10?
« Reply #29 on: March 24, 2008, 02:37:53 PM »

Off the top of my head, I would vote for:

1.  Able to be powered by 6-12V DC
2.  2 x Good Pre's
3.  Good AD
4.  S/PDIF out
5.  Analog out
6.  Provides phantom
7.  Rugged, yet small-ish enclosure (~6-9”L x ~6-9”W x ~2-3”H)
8.  Priced between $1-2K

--Michael


add to that:

-AES/EBU out (nice to have in addition to s/pdif, and more rugged)
-wordclock in/out for syncing with other devices
-field-functional metering

 

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