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Offline Teen Wolf Blitzer

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recommend an HD camcorder
« on: February 05, 2010, 01:24:45 PM »
$1500 limit.  What are your thoughts on mini DV tape vs. flash?  I've been told it's better to go mini dv tape but frankly I don't want a ton of media.  Not to mention realtime transfers.
Thoughts?

Offline rastasean

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Re: recommend an HD camcorder
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2010, 02:59:21 PM »
Personally I would pick anything panasonic. I don't mind DV tapes too much except that you have to keep buying them unless you want to record over the media.


Panasonic HDC-TM300 32GB Full HD Camcorder


What will you be filming and doing with the video? editing it? Is your computer powerful enough to edit the video it records?
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Offline fguidry

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Re: recommend an HD camcorder
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2010, 03:00:36 PM »
Tape is over unless you need to archive your shots. The latest generation of DSLR and Micro 4/3 still cams with HD video are knocking off much higher priced video cams. You can get the Panasonic Lumix GH1 for your price. Do some searches and see if it does what you want (exquisite image quality, great in low light, adapters for practically any lens ever made, zoom during video, articulated display, long shot times).

Just an old fogey's opinion.

Fran

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Re: recommend an HD camcorder
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2010, 05:24:14 PM »
Thanks for the input guys.  I've been told by others Panasonic makes the best cams. 

And back to the topic of tape vs. flash card.  Someone told me you get a better picture using tape?  Due to compression?  Any clarification on that? 

And as for the point and shoot options.  Ya they are cool but the limited run time is not appealing to me.  ie. file size/time before it cuts.  I want a whole set uncut which is why tape seems undesirable to me with an hour length.  Might be ok if you had 2 cams and could start them staggered. 

Offline rastasean

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Re: recommend an HD camcorder
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2010, 06:13:32 PM »
Thanks for the input guys.  I've been told by others Panasonic makes the best cams. 

And back to the topic of tape vs. flash card.  Someone told me you get a better picture using tape?  Due to compression?  Any clarification on that? 

And as for the point and shoot options.  Ya they are cool but the limited run time is not appealing to me.  ie. file size/time before it cuts.  I want a whole set uncut which is why tape seems undesirable to me with an hour length.  Might be ok if you had 2 cams and could start them staggered.

Not all cameras have a cut off time, it is dependent of the card.
For example my panasonic point and shoot zs3 could record 8 gigs* of AVCHD video as long as the battery does not die.

*this is the size of my card so that is why I said 8 but it can take up to 32 gigs.
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Offline tailschao

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Re: recommend an HD camcorder
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2010, 06:14:23 PM »
And back to the topic of tape vs. flash card.  Someone told me you get a better picture using tape?  Due to compression?  Any clarification on that?
In terms of consumer HD camcorders, tape-based record in HDV, and SSD/HDD/Flash Card based record in AVCHD. AVCHD is a form of H.264 encoding, HDV is a form of MPEG-2 encoding.

Now, H.264 is theoretically a better codec. If you turn up all the fancy settings it can achieve better image quality at the same bitrate as HDV, all other things considered. HOWEVER, remember that the encoding of both of these is done in camera. The encoding hardware chips need to be cheap, small, cool, low-power and be capable of encoding the footage in real time. The more fancy H.264 encoding settings you use to improve the quality, the more processing power is required to encode the footage in real time. MPEG-2 based codecs require less processing power. Which means that, certainly for the first few generations of AVCHD camcorders, the image quality was actually inferior, because the encoding chips were technically limited and so quality was sacrificed for the ability to encode in real time. Also the max bitrate was lower (17Mbps vs 25Mbps) in the first couple of gens, but IIRC even the HF11 (AVCHD @ 24Mbps) looked worse than the HV20 (HDV @ 25Mbps). I'm not sure if it has evened out yet, it definitely will one day, as the computers in the cameras get better and faster.

Remember H.264-based codecs also requre more computer processing power to process afterwards, AVCHD especially.

Personally I'd get a HV20/HV30/HV40 (All the same, just with a couple of added features). Tape-based HDV, but I've yet to find a more recent cam that matches all of its features and with the same price & image quality, especially in low-light.

Offline baustin

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Re: recommend an HD camcorder
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2010, 06:45:21 PM »
the teamhood (phish video tapers) guys all run the canon hv30 and highly recommend it.

i'm just starting to use my sony hdr-sr1. its an older camera that came with an internal 30gb hdd. i pulled out the 30gb drive and replaced it with a newer 120gb hdd. not a big fan of tapes personally.

as far as editing, i am literally trying to teach myself video editing as i type, so take my input with a grain of salt.

Offline firmdragon

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Re: recommend an HD camcorder
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2010, 07:14:09 PM »
if you're going the camcorder route, the hv20/30/40 are solid.  and probably the best bang for your buck.

the only downside is tape switching at 60min/80min.  for your budget you might be able to squeeze a used hv20 with a firestore for under $1500

as for dslrs doubling as video cams, i thought most of those cams do do full HD, but don't have autofocus + they heat up a lot.  also the exposuring is hard to set.  (well that's what i gathered from a friend who owns a 5d mk2)

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Re: recommend an HD camcorder
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2010, 09:21:42 PM »
Thanks guys.  What do the tapes go for?  Where do you all buy them?  I could get 2 HV40's for 1500.  Hmmmm

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Re: recommend an HD camcorder
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2010, 04:19:44 PM »
Thanks guys.  What do the tapes go for?  Where do you all buy them?  I could get 2 HV40's for 1500.  Hmmmm

or two HV30s for 1000
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Offline Mental Time Traveler

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Re: recommend an HD camcorder
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2010, 07:22:32 PM »
i'm just starting to use my sony hdr-sr1. its an older camera that came with an internal 30gb hdd. i pulled out the 30gb drive and replaced it with a newer 120gb hdd. not a big fan of tapes personally.

im using sony hdr-sr11e, its hard disk camcorder and in full hd (avchd) video editing is pain but as for the camera, really great for taping. what i found really useful is that one setting can be set under the knob. this way you dont need to set sharpness on lcd (which usually results in shakes). this apply for stealth of course. other than that, really good quality. it's a little under your price range and this model is 2 years old. maybe something newer could be your choice. never used canons but there are many great recordings done with hv30.

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Re: recommend an HD camcorder
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2010, 02:16:07 AM »
Sanyo Xacti HD2000. Manual control, audio input with manual level and no AGC, AC adapter standard, replaceable battery, SDHC card, excellent in low light. Edit with Edius Neo Booster for real time preview if you have a decent Core 2 Duo. Heck, I could even cut these files in PE7.

Go to Vimeo.com and look around the Xacti and Lumix channels.

Fran

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Re: recommend an HD camcorder
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2010, 03:15:52 PM »
I use a Sony hdr hc9 mini dv camcorder, and i have nothing but good things to say about it. I love having the tapes because then i don't have to keep buying more hard drives to store the data. If you are going to go with tapes, do yourself a favor and buy a 50 pack on ebay for 100 bucks. The camera shoots in 1080i, and when uploaded to the computer, one hour is 38 Gb's of uncompressed HDV, unlike the hard drive cams which use about 13 Gb's an hour of vid, which is compressed. It's a breeze to edit my video in Imovie, i have all macs, and then send it to idvd which downconverts to SD to make a dvd. I record audio separately and dub in during the editing process. Here is a recent example, Midnite recorded in a small hall in Mill Valley, California on Feb 5  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxS3ii0zv0A. I think the Canons do a pretty good job too.

Offline tailschao

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Re: recommend an HD camcorder
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2010, 03:33:43 PM »
I use a Sony hdr hc9 mini dv camcorder, and i have nothing but good things to say about it. I love having the tapes because then i don't have to keep buying more hard drives to store the data. If you are going to go with tapes, do yourself a favor and buy a 50 pack on ebay for 100 bucks. The camera shoots in 1080i, and when uploaded to the computer, one hour is 38 Gb's of uncompressed HDV, unlike the hard drive cams which use about 13 Gb's an hour of vid, which is compressed. It's a breeze to edit my video in Imovie, i have all macs, and then send it to idvd which downconverts to SD to make a dvd. I record audio separately and dub in during the editing process. Here is a recent example, Midnite recorded in a small hall in Mill Valley, California on Feb 5  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxS3ii0zv0A. I think the Canons do a pretty good job too.
Something is going wrong here then. All HDV tape based camcorders record at a fixed, constant bitrate of 25 Mb/Sec. One hour of footage @ 25 Mb/Sec is 12 GB, not 38. AVCHD camcorders offer a choice as to the average Bitrate, in addition to having the bitrate fluctuate throughout the recording based on the level of complexity of the footage at that time. AFAIK the latest generation of AVCHD camcorders can record in 24 Mb/Sec, 17 Mb/Sec, 13 Mb/Sec and 9 Mb/Sec (this may vary slightly between manufacturers). At 24, the file size will be similar to that of HDV footage, just a tiny bit smaller possibly. As I said before, some day this same size will result in better image quality than HDV, but I'm not sure if they're quite there with the encoding chips yet.

Also, there is no such thing as "uncompressed HDV". HDV is compressed, as is all video footage (except uncompressed... obviously). 1 hour of 1920x1080 footage uncompressed comes out at something like 250GB+, assuming a YV12 colour space. HDV is compressed, as is AVCHD, as are Blu-Ray discs, as are DVDs, as is almost every piece of video you come into contact with. They are just different types of compression with very different algorithms invovled.

Offline rastasean

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Re: recommend an HD camcorder
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2010, 04:22:42 PM »
I use a Sony hdr hc9 mini dv camcorder, and i have nothing but good things to say about it. I love having the tapes because then i don't have to keep buying more hard drives to store the data. If you are going to go with tapes, do yourself a favor and buy a 50 pack on ebay for 100 bucks. The camera shoots in 1080i, and when uploaded to the computer, one hour is 38 Gb's of uncompressed HDV, unlike the hard drive cams which use about 13 Gb's an hour of vid, which is compressed. It's a breeze to edit my video in Imovie, i have all macs, and then send it to idvd which downconverts to SD to make a dvd. I record audio separately and dub in during the editing process. Here is a recent example, Midnite recorded in a small hall in Mill Valley, California on Feb 5  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxS3ii0zv0A. I think the Canons do a pretty good job too.
Something is going wrong here then. All HDV tape based camcorders record at a fixed, constant bitrate of 25 Mb/Sec. One hour of footage @ 25 Mb/Sec is 12 GB, not 38. AVCHD camcorders offer a choice as to the average Bitrate, in addition to having the bitrate fluctuate throughout the recording based on the level of complexity of the footage at that time. AFAIK the latest generation of AVCHD camcorders can record in 24 Mb/Sec, 17 Mb/Sec, 13 Mb/Sec and 9 Mb/Sec (this may vary slightly between manufacturers). At 24, the file size will be similar to that of HDV footage, just a tiny bit smaller possibly. As I said before, some day this same size will result in better image quality than HDV, but I'm not sure if they're quite there with the encoding chips yet.

Also, there is no such thing as "uncompressed HDV". HDV is compressed, as is all video footage (except uncompressed... obviously). 1 hour of 1920x1080 footage uncompressed comes out at something like 250GB+, assuming a YV12 colour space. HDV is compressed, as is AVCHD, as are Blu-Ray discs, as are DVDs, as is almost every piece of video you come into contact with. They are just different types of compression with very different algorithms invovled.

let's all hope over to the footage calculator:
http://www.digitalrebellion.com/footage_calc.htm

somehow or another, they think there is a such thing as uncompressed 1080p.

Advice is a form of nostalgia, dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it’s worth.

 

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