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Author Topic: 24/48 vs 24/44.1 ... Help?  (Read 10666 times)

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Offline DSatz

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Re: 24/48 vs 24/44.1 ... Help?
« Reply #30 on: March 24, 2008, 07:51:32 AM »
digifish, when digital audio was introduced to the general public in the early 1980s, there was a great deal of emphasis on making everyone into instant experts by explaining "how it works" down to a certain depth of understanding. Most journalists and other commentators relied on a certain stock set of images or metaphors to explain how it works. Part of that set was the idea that digital audio is recorded as a series of "stairstep" sample values.

It was remarkable at the time how often you would see almost the identical set of drawings in every article about digital audio--showing how a smoothly flowing analog signal would be reduced to a succession of evenly spaced stairsteps. That image has led to a number of suppositions and expectations which are not actually true of digital audio recording when correctly implemented and used. Just about everyone got the impression that if you were to hook up an oscilloscope to the output of a CD player, you would see these stairsteps, as if that's what its analog output looked like, instead of a the smoothly flowing analog signal which actually is there.

The author of the article that you referred us to is a very careful and intelligent writer, but like many other people in audio even today, he seems perhaps to be unaware of how digital audio recording actually works as a system, since he writes:

> (A) I had predicted that 16 bit quantization noise might be audible when recording in the quietest natural locations and I was wrong. It remains surprising to me that quantization noise is inaudible with the 16 bit file all the way down to levels producing -60dB peaks (or ~.1% saturation!) from the background sounds. One would think, as the bit "steps" are divided evenly across the 96dB total range, that resolution and performance would drop off faster than this.

It's to the author's great credit that he admits what his ears were telling him instead of clinging to what his belief system told him to expect. He explains the reasons for his expectation--and terms such as "bit 'steps'" and "resolution" are leftovers from the broken metaphor that I was talking about.

I have to get going now, but just to summarize--a properly dithered digital recording system doesn't have audible quantization noise as such, nor stairstep waveforms, nor increasing distortion at lower recorded levels (nor increased "resolution" at higher recorded levels), nor a floor threshold beneath which there is "digital deafness." It has a soft noise floor just like any analog medium; as low-level signals approach that noise floor they can go beneath it for as much as 10 dB or more and still be heard, just as in any analog medium. The audible character of that noise floor will depend on its statistical properties and its frequency curve just as with any analog medium.

All of the above is directly observable by anyone who cares to check it out. The persistence of beliefs to the contrary on all of the above statements is a testament to ... I don't know what, but I wish it would go away.

And even with the slight increase in the level of the noise floor that dither causes, 16-bit linear PCM (the system used on CDs) is 20+ dB quieter than the best analog tape recordings of the era in which the CD was introduced. Dolby and the others had to come up with advanced, new noise reduction algorithms such as Dolby SR so that analog tape at 15 or even 30 ips could reasonably compete.

For anyone who came up in the analog era (my favorite records as a child, e.g. Elvis Presley's "Hound Dog," were still 78s), 16-bit PCM gives an astoundingly wide dynamic range. The fact that it's in consumer hands now is a very big deal.

--best regards
« Last Edit: March 24, 2008, 07:56:55 AM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline Kevin Straker

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Re: 24/48 vs 24/44.1 ... Help?
« Reply #31 on: March 24, 2008, 08:56:33 AM »
I use Audio DVD creator to burn DVD-A discs, obviously. It requires either a 48 or 96khz file. It won't do 44.1. Since I started to actually listen to the discs in 24 bit format I use 24/48 for that reason. When I just had the intention of winding up with a CD product I used 24/44.1. The only reason I can see in your case to use a higher sampling rate is for future upgrades in the 24 bit playback realm. Looks like this was said already, but I'll leave it up anyways.
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Offline JasonSobel

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Re: 24/48 vs 24/44.1 ... Help?
« Reply #32 on: March 24, 2008, 09:10:03 AM »
I use Audio DVD creator to burn DVD-A discs, obviously. It requires either a 48 or 96khz file. It won't do 44.1. Since I started to actually listen to the discs in 24 bit format I use 24/48 for that reason. When I just had the intention of winding up with a CD product I used 24/44.1. The only reason I can see in your case to use a higher sampling rate is for future upgrades in the 24 bit playback realm. Looks like this was said already, but I'll leave it up anyways.

just to be clear, the "Audio DVD creator" program does not create DVD-Audio discs.  it creates DVD-Video discs, with the linear PCM as the audio portion.  the DVD-Video format allows for either 48 or 96 kHz sampling rate, while the DVD-Audio format is more flexible and allow for 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, or 192 kHz.  There is also reasonably priced (some of it is free) software to create DVD-A discs.  but then you need to make sure that your DVD player can handle the format.

Offline Kevin Straker

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Re: 24/48 vs 24/44.1 ... Help?
« Reply #33 on: March 24, 2008, 09:25:52 AM »
I use Audio DVD creator to burn DVD-A discs, obviously. It requires either a 48 or 96khz file. It won't do 44.1. Since I started to actually listen to the discs in 24 bit format I use 24/48 for that reason. When I just had the intention of winding up with a CD product I used 24/44.1. The only reason I can see in your case to use a higher sampling rate is for future upgrades in the 24 bit playback realm. Looks like this was said already, but I'll leave it up anyways.

just to be clear, the "Audio DVD creator" program does not create DVD-Audio discs.  it creates DVD-Video discs, with the linear PCM as the audio portion.  the DVD-Video format allows for either 48 or 96 kHz sampling rate, while the DVD-Audio format is more flexible and allow for 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, or 192 kHz.  There is also reasonably priced (some of it is free) software to create DVD-A discs.  but then you need to make sure that your DVD player can handle the format.
Thanks for the clarification. I have a fancy new Oppo dvd player that will play damn near anything. What cheap/freeware will burn discs that will only play on a dvd-a player? Thanks again-Kevin


« Last Edit: March 24, 2008, 03:05:32 PM by Kevin Straker »
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Offline JasonSobel

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Re: 24/48 vs 24/44.1 ... Help?
« Reply #34 on: March 24, 2008, 09:33:11 AM »
What cheap/freeware will burn discs that will only play on a dvd-a player?

DVD-Audiofile is a program that Scott Brown put together.  there's a lot of discussion of it here:
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,52892.0.html
(actually, what Scott did was put together a windows GUI for the free, open source "DVD audio Tools" project: http://dvd-audio.sourceforge.net/)
DVD-Audiofile will create a disc image (.ISO) of a DVD-Audio disc.  once the disc image is created, you can use any DVD burning program to burn the image.  I always use ImgBurn, which is a free program available here: http://www.imgburn.com/.

edit to add: I'm not sure if the links that Scott put up for DVD-Audiofile are still available.  If you can't download it there, I also have it mirrored on my 24 bit FAQ site: http://24bit.turtleside.com/

Offline ghellquist

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Re: 24/48 vs 24/44.1 ... Help?
« Reply #35 on: March 24, 2008, 07:23:17 PM »
OK ... I understand the gains of 24-bit over 16-bit (greater dynamic range), but I don't see the advantage of 48kHz over 44.1kHz.

Just adding my few cents to this. In short, it all depends according to my (in)experience:

1 - the purpose or end result of the recording. Sometimes 48 is a better end result as already mentionen about video DVD-s.
Deep stuff: If you want to do sound for video you might even want to select 48048 instead (.1% pullup, sometimes used when running audio together with video cameras).

2 - the AD converter you are using. Some simply sounds better at one or the other of the frequencys. I believe this may be because the designers had to work towards a budget and simply had to take short-cuts. (Sometimes I believe the designers simply did a bad job).

3 - what tools you are using. Sample rate conversion today is not a big deal. Programs like r8brain (even the free version) easily converts with good quality between any two sample rates.
Deep stuff: Rumours has it that in the historical days 44.1 was selected for CD-s in order to make it very incompatible with DAT running at 48. Used to be very difficult to convert, now any laptop has more processing power than old days supercomputing centers and eats those conversions for breakfast.

4 - what you are used to. Sure is easier if most things use same sample rate.

Gunnar

Offline DSatz

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Re: 24/48 vs 24/44.1 ... Help?
« Reply #36 on: March 24, 2008, 08:06:29 PM »
ghellquist,

> Rumours has it that in the historical days 44.1 was selected for CD-s in order to make it very incompatible with DAT running at 48.

That simply isn't possible. The CD format was specified and implemented years before R-DAT existed as a medium.

The 44.1 kHz sampling rate was chosen for its compatibility with the field rate of broadcast video recorders, and because the available A/D converters at the time became less and less linear the faster you drove them. A single-channel A/D converter back then was an object the size of a small paperback book, costing well over $1000 apiece and requiring an annual trip back to the factory for recalibration. The converters had to be fine tuned for each session by finding the null in the noise floor (my job as a technician for New York Digital Recording in many sessions back then).

Throughout much of the 1980s, professional digital audio was generally recorded on broadcast-quality 3/4" "U-Matic" videotape on machines such as the Sony BVU-200 and BVU-800, via digital audio adapters such as the Sony PCM-1600, -1610 and -1630.

Consumer digital audio recording came about via the Sony PCM-1, PCM-10 and later the (much better known) PCM-F1, which were designed for use with consumer or industrial video recorders--the PCM-F1 even had a companion Betamax recorder, the SL-2000, which was identically styled. However, since the field rate of PAL/SECAM video differs from that of NTSC video, there actually were two very slightly different sampling rates depending on whether you bought the US/Japan model of the PCM-F1 or the European model; one of them ran at 44.056 kHz and the other at 44.1. If I remember correctly the U.S. model ran at 44.056, creating a 1/50th of a semitone shift in pitch if an F1 recording was transferred digitally to 1610.

But such transfers weren't possible in the beginning; you couldn't transfer a digital recording to a computer for editing; you couldn't get at the data in any way for years. PCs at that point wouldn't have been powerful enough to do much with audio anyway--their hard drives were slow, physically large but decidedly too small in capacity for audio projects, plus unreliable and expensive.

And so on.

--best regards
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline digifish_music

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Re: 24/48 vs 24/44.1 ... Help?
« Reply #37 on: March 24, 2008, 08:18:16 PM »
digifish, when digital audio was introduced to the general public in the early 1980s, there was a great deal of emphasis on making everyone into instant experts by explaining "how it works" down to a certain depth of understanding. Most journalists and other commentators relied on a certain stock set of images or metaphors to explain how it works. Part of that set was the idea that digital audio is recorded as a series of "stairstep" sample values.


Interesting response, on a small post.

The point of my post was for people to hear some low-level 16 bit recordings and compare them to 24 bit recordings. The differences are minimal.

I have made a lot of 16 and 24 bit recordings myself, I use 24 bit where I can to maintain a sensible safety margin and theoretically improve the audio quality. In my experience, 16 bit and 24 bit are indistinguishable in all real-world conditions where I record audio.

digifish
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Offline ghellquist

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Re: 24/48 vs 24/44.1 ... Help?
« Reply #38 on: March 24, 2008, 08:33:25 PM »
Interesting response, on a small post.

The point of my post was for people to hear some low-level 16 bit recordings and compare them to 24 bit recordings. The differences are minimal.

I have made a lot of 16 and 24 bit recordings myself, I use 24 bit where I can to maintain a sensible safety margin and theoretically improve the audio quality. In my experience, 16 bit and 24 bit are indistinguishable in all real-world conditions where I record audio.

digifish

There we differ in application. I find I get too small a margin down to the noise floor when recording 16 bits in classical music. I use those extra bits partly as safety margin by having peaks at or below -12dB Full Scale. But to be truthful, few so-called 24 bit AD-s really give more than 20 actual bits (signal to noise ratio hardly ever above 120dB). Once mastered I see absolutely no need for more than 16 bits as no playback system I ever has encountered gives that large S/N when actually used.

Gunnar

 

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