Topic: Transferring Mini DV Masters

[Charlie Miller]

Is there any quality loss by transferring my Mini DV masters to DVD? Would it be better to transfer them to blu-ray?

I'm guessing that blu-ray would allow me to use better audio without compression??

[stantheman1976]

Any type of compression is going to cause some quality loss.  Transferring to DVD compresses the video to MPEG-2 which even at the least amount for DVD would be about 150% compressions.

MiniDV is 25mbps 48KHz which amounts to ~13GB per hour of video when it's transferred to PC.  You can transfer and store the DV video on a data Blu-Ray and it wouldn't lose quality.

I don't have any experience with Blu-Ray but I know if you transfer it as BR video it will still need some type of compression which could also make it more difficult to edit in the future. 

Just keep your masters and make duplicates if you need a backup.  Those tapes aren't going anywhere anytime soon and should last for a very long time.

[willndmb]

you can store raw footage on dvds uncompressed too
but you can't take that disc and watch it on a dvd player

[datbrad]

you can store raw footage on dvds uncompressed too
but you can't take that disc and watch it on a dvd player

This is exactly what I do. I take the DV (firewire) out from the camera to the PC, and do the capture at full size .AVI, so there is no loss. The DVDs I make from these files to play on DVD players are compressed, but the master files are left uncompressed on the HDDs I have.

I archive these files on external hard drives, because they are too  big to fit intact on a DVD data single disc. A one hour standard definition mini DV tape can be 12 gigs as an uncompressed .AVI file, so I think Blue Ray data discs would be a great archiving option for the raw video files, just due to their capacity.

[junkyardt]

Alright well I've just transferred my first MiniDV the proper way via firewire to PC, and I've got a few questions I hope some people here have already dealt with.

I used Sony Vegas for capturing, what do others use? Is there a better program to use? Has anyone tried WinDV? ( http://windv.mourek.cz/ )

I'm trying to understand dropped frames. For a 1 hr 33 minute video I got 71 dropped frames. Would this generally be considered acceptable or terrible? Should I try to eliminate all dropped frames entirely, or is there even any way to do that? Is there some acceptable level of dropped frames I should shoot for? And I guess most importantly, I don't notice anything with the naked eye when watching the captured video, so as long as they're not noticeable with the naked eye, do dropped frames even matter?

And then finally, what's the best way to get the huge 20+ GB worth of raw video down into a DVD with the least noticeable quality loss? I'm going to sync external audio to the transferred video in Sony Vegas, so I imagine when I'm done I'd render it as Video for Windows (AVI/DV), and not MPEG, to maintain the quality. But then once I've got the finished product AVI/DV file, how do I get that down into a usable size?

[stantheman1976]

For standard DVD you must compress to MPEG.  You cannot get around that.  Getting the best quality possible is tricky because you need to figure out what bitrate you need to use and whether you need a constant bitrate or a variable bitrate.  Audio must also be factored into this decision.  If you are using linear PCM audio at 16/44 it will be 1.4mbps.  DVD spec is a maximum of 9.8mbps for video and audio together.  If you are using a compressed audio stream of MP2 or AC3 you have a little more room for the video. 

You said your video is 1h33m.  You'll be best using VBR for one that long.  Decide what type of audio you want and what the audio bitrate will be and use an online bitrate calculator to tell you exactly what you need for the video.  This one is very good:
http://dvd-hq.info/bitrate_calculator.php.  There will be some quality loss when compressing to DVD but if you are careful it won't be noticeable.  With a 1 hour or less video you can use 8mbps CBR and it should look like the original to the naked eye.  Even with 1h33m using VBR you should get very good results.

Determining the maximum length you should put on a DVD can depend on they type of video.  Shaky, hand held footage will not look that great if you try to squeeze 90-120 minutes on a single layer disc.  Steady footage with a tripod will fare much better.  I have fit over 2 1/2 hours by request on a single layer before, most of it being tripod shots, and it was acceptable.

As for dropped frames only 0 is totally acceptable.  You won't notice anything watching the footage but when you try to sync it with other footage or audio you will have issues.  You need to recapture your tape and make sure there are no dropped frames.

I normally use WinDV.  It's small, takes up few resources, and gets the job done with no fuss.  You just need to make sure you have the options set correctly or it will split the footage into multiple files as you capture.  When WinDV is open click the config button.  Make sure you select type 2 AVI.  Discontinuity Threshold is how long the video goes blank before it stops capturing.  If you set it to 0 it will capture until the physical end of the tape.  I usually set it to 5 so after 5 seconds of no video it stops capturing.  Max AVI size is how big you will allow a file to be.  If you want your footage split into multiple segments set it for what you want.  Say you want 5 minute segments.  30fps * 60 sec/min = 1800fpm.  1800fpm * 5m =  9000 max size.  You get the idea from there.  I usually set it to 1,000,000 so it just captures and I don't ever have to worry about it.  Every Nth frame should stay at 1.

Make sure you're not doing other stuff on your PC while capturing and if you have a culttered hard drive you might want to defrag it.  Also make sure if you recorded in LP mode you are playing back on the same camera you recorded with.  Some cameras hate LP mode tapes they didn't record. 

[junkyardt]

thanks for all that info, the link doesn't seem to be working though. i will try to recapture again with WinDV and see what results i get. also, i didn't defrag the first time, so i'll do that before trying again. these are in fact LP tapes, but playing back on the same camera they were recorded on isn't an option now (i had briefly borrowed the camera they were recorded on, and no longer have that one, but now have a different one that i own--they are both JVC models so hopefully it won't be too much of an issue).

would running a tape cleaner to clean the tape heads before each playback make a difference as far as dropped frames? or does that only matter in regards to recording?

this was footage shot on a tripod, but i guess i should've clarified the first time, the 1 hr 33 mins isn't the TOTAL length, just the length of that tape (recorded in LP). the whole show was around 2 hours, with the rest of it being on another tape (also in LP), and i'll combine the 2 sections of the show in Sony Vegas.

i don't HAVE to go all the way down to a single layer DVD, although it would be nice. if the quality would be significantly better i guess i could make a dual layer DVD out of it. do you think only compressing to dual layer would make a noticeable difference over single layer for a 2 hr show?

also the last thing for future reference...up till now i've only recorded in LP mode...does using SP make a huge difference in quality that it's worth using? it's just, at only 60 minutes per tape, and having to pick a good spot prior to the 60 minute mark to switch (between songs), i could end up having to use 3 tapes for a show just over 2 hours!

[stantheman1976]

Quality wise SP and LP are identical.  Some cheaper cameras do use 12 bit audio in LP instead of 16 bit though.  The frame rate, compressions, and video size are exactly the same.  It just makes a difference when you have to play back the LP tape on consumer grade equipment.  Some cameras just don't like tapes in LP mode that they did not record.  If you're recording on a camera you won't be able to use again after the fact stay with SP.  I know it makes things more difficult during the recording process but it can save you major headaches after the fact.

You should not use a cleaning tape unless you have to.  Most cameras, if not all, will give you a notification if your tape heads need cleaning.  As long as you are using one brand of tapes exclusively it shouldn't be an issue.  If you switch brands it can leave residue behind clogging up your recording heads.  Cleaning tapes can be abrasive and should only be used when necessary. 

So the entire video should be around 2 hours when you're finished?  Since it is steady tripod shot footage you should be able to compress it to a single layer using VBR.  What type of audio are you going to use?  If you're using compressed audio AC3 is generally regarded as being higher quality and more compatible than MP2.  Vegas can output AC3.  I don't remember if it comes with the plugin now or not.  I've been using it since V6 and I've been with V8 since it came out.  AC3 at 384kbs should give you good results unless you are dead set on LPCM.  If your disc was going to be 60-90 minutes I'd say don't hesitate to use LPCM but with one longer than that AC3 is a good option to save space and still have decent quality audio.

[SClassical]

When I capture miniDV into Vegas 8 pro I dont run any programs in the background or anything. Also I disconnect from the internet. That helps solve drop frames 100% of the time for me.

[sabre]

thanks for all that info, the link doesn't seem to be working though.

Try this link (the original link had a "." at the end of it)
http://dvd-hq.info/bitrate_calculator.php

would running a tape cleaner to clean the tape heads before each playback make a difference as far as dropped frames? or does that only matter in regards to recording?

I would only use a head cleaner if there are visible artifacts while watching the video (either on the LCD or when hooked up to a TV). Dropped frames are usually caused by another program accessing the hard drive while you're transferring. Most hard drives can cope with some simultaneous hard drive activity but if you start watching another video while recording or you run too many programs then you're going to drop frames. I would try to stop any program that's running in the background (look at the task bar located in the bottom right hand corner of the screen). I would also recommend rebooting the PC prior to capturing as well. A defrag might also help.

the whole show was around 2 hours, with the rest of it being on another tape (also in LP), and i'll combine the 2 sections of the show in Sony Vegas.

i don't HAVE to go all the way down to a single layer DVD, although it would be nice. if the quality would be significantly better i guess i could make a dual layer DVD out of it. do you think only compressing to dual layer would make a noticeable difference over single layer for a 2 hr show?

Putting 2 hours of footage onto a DVD5 is not a really good idea. The average bitrate will need to be around 4600kbps (if you're using AC3/MP2 audio) and even lower if you're using PCM. A DVD9 version will allow you to use the maximum bitrate possible for the DVD and will look the best as can be. Why not try it out for yourself. Encode 10 minutes of footage at 4600kbps and then encode the same footage at 9000kbps - watch it on your TV.

[stantheman1976]

The only bad thing about making it DVD9 is that if you want to burn it to disc.  DL discs just aren't typically as reliable or compatible as SL.  Then you have to worry about using a decent program to burn and if you get -R DL discs you cannot choose where the disc switches to the second layer so when the player switches to the second layer there can be a noticeable pause.  With +R DL discs you can choose where the layer break and pick a spot where the switch will be smoother.

If you plan to watch the final only on a PC though all the above is a non-issue.  Make it DVD9 and when you share it the people who get it from you can do what they please.

[guitard]

Sometimes I get dropped frames at the very beginning or end of a tape.  This especially happens a lot when there is a second or two of unused tape at the beginning of a tape.  So basically, they are dropped frames that occurred during a portion of the tape that I wasn't going to use anyway.

So if you can determine when the dropped frames occurred and it's a similar situation to what I described - don't worry about them.

[coloartist]

I only get dropped frames from cheap or bad tapes.

I just bought a BluRay burner. I have havent hooked it up yet, but they have dropped quite a bit.

LG Internal Bluray disc Rewriter  $179.00

Discs were $39.99 for 15- 25gb discs

50gb discs were $17.00 , though.