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Offline travelinbeat

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Melting Batteries
« on: January 05, 2010, 09:06:54 PM »
So I bought a 9.6v from a place called Hobbytown USA here in my neighborhood.  I made an adapter to take the Tamiya power plug and spit out a 1/8" mono in order to power my Denecke PS2 (discussion on that process over here).  I plugged in the battery and the little red power light on the denecke popped on and off (as it should) and the battery pack instantly got very very hot.  I unplugged it, cooled it down, tried again, same thing.  I hooked up mic's and saw that it was working, it was just getting VERY hot, VERY fast.  So I took it all apart, cooled the battery again, then charged it (first ever charge), plugged it in again and within about 10 seconds it was smoking and the plastic was melting away from the batteries!! 

Question is basically wtf.  Bad batteries?  Bad solder work on my part somewhere?  I mean, I'm pretty confident that I did everything right (the successful powering of the mics I think attest to that), but it's certainly possible that I made a mistake.  Any input?

Thanks
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Offline bhtoque

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Re: Melting Batteries
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2010, 10:09:38 PM »
That's a short somewhere. I had the same problem with a ni-cd pack once. Mine shorted between the cells in the pack, but I can't say you are having the same issue.

I'd check your cable with a multi-meter then you'll know where the problem is.

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Offline travelinbeat

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Re: Melting Batteries
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2010, 12:54:51 AM »
no short on the cable (yay I made it right!), guess the problem is / was the battery.... strange that a brand new battery would do that though  ???
Mics: Busman BSC1's K1/K2/K3/K4, CA-14's
Units: 2x Edirol R-09HR, iRiver H120 (RockBox + 2200mAh + CF mod)
Power & Accessories: Naiant Littlebox 1.5, Church ST-9100, Denecke PS-2, 2x Kingston SDHC (Model: SD2/8GB), 2x Kingston SDHC (Model: SD4/16GB), Kingston 32GB (Model: SD4/32GB), Darktrain XLR, 2x Shure A81WS's, 4x Powerex 9.6v, 12x Sanyo 2700 NiMH, 2x AT8410A's

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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: Melting Batteries
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2010, 02:10:00 AM »
That -is- strange.  How did you test the cable?  Did you test all the cables and connection points (sounds like you have at least battery cable + Tamiya connector, adapter Tamiya connector + cable + 1/8" connector)?  Are you sure nothing's cross-wired?  Are you certain the 1/8" plug seats fully into the PS2 (if memory serves, the PS2 briefly shorts the 1/8" connector during insertion; once fully seated, it doesn't short)?
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Offline travelinbeat

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Re: Melting Batteries
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2010, 02:54:28 PM »
Brian-- 

The testing I did was pretty simple, just tested the cable I built to make sure that positive on one end was positive on the other end (and that negative was not getting any positive signal) and visa-versa.  I also tested the load it was carrying an it didn't seem to be "leaking" power anywhere.  The 1/8" does feel a little "soft" when plugged in all the way, it doesn't really give that nice SNAP, but rather a sort of soft cushiony feeling.  I still am not really sure how / why the deice would've worked during that one mic test too.  I've also heard strange things about the order in which people should power the PS2 / plug in mics / blah blah blah, but I really can't remember the details of it or why they are important.  I'd love to get a little more clarity on what's going on here, so thanks again to everyone following this thread.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 03:19:35 PM by travelinbeat »
Mics: Busman BSC1's K1/K2/K3/K4, CA-14's
Units: 2x Edirol R-09HR, iRiver H120 (RockBox + 2200mAh + CF mod)
Power & Accessories: Naiant Littlebox 1.5, Church ST-9100, Denecke PS-2, 2x Kingston SDHC (Model: SD2/8GB), 2x Kingston SDHC (Model: SD4/16GB), Kingston 32GB (Model: SD4/32GB), Darktrain XLR, 2x Shure A81WS's, 4x Powerex 9.6v, 12x Sanyo 2700 NiMH, 2x AT8410A's

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Offline rowjimmytour

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Re: Melting Batteries
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2010, 03:21:21 PM »
Brian-- 

The testing I did was pretty simple, just tested the cable I built to make sure that positive on one end was positive on the other (and that negative was not getting any positive signal) and visa-versa.  I also tested the load it was carrying an dit didn't seem to be "leaking" power anywhere.  The 1/8" does feel a little "soft" when plugged in all the way, it doesn't really give that nice SNAP, but rather a sort of soft cushiony feeling.  I still am not really sure how / why the deice would've worked during that one mic test too.  I've also heard strange things about the order in which people should power the PS2 / plug in mics / blah blah blah, but I really can't remember the details of it or why they are important.  I'd love to get a little more clarity on what's going on here, so thanks again to everyone following this thread.
Could the short be in the connection between Battery>cable (cross current)? Regardless its always a good idea to add a quick blow fuse in line on the + side of cable ;)
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Offline travelinbeat

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Re: Melting Batteries
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2010, 03:31:20 PM »
Brian-- 

The testing I did was pretty simple, just tested the cable I built to make sure that positive on one end was positive on the other (and that negative was not getting any positive signal) and visa-versa.  I also tested the load it was carrying an dit didn't seem to be "leaking" power anywhere.  The 1/8" does feel a little "soft" when plugged in all the way, it doesn't really give that nice SNAP, but rather a sort of soft cushiony feeling.  I still am not really sure how / why the deice would've worked during that one mic test too.  I've also heard strange things about the order in which people should power the PS2 / plug in mics / blah blah blah, but I really can't remember the details of it or why they are important.  I'd love to get a little more clarity on what's going on here, so thanks again to everyone following this thread.
Could the short be in the connection between Battery>cable (cross current)? Regardless its always a good idea to add a quick blow fuse in line on the + side of cable ;)

To make this whole situation a little more confusing, I have virtually no familiarity with the in's and out's of power and fuses and the like.  I basically just saw what Tim Brown was running at a show a while ago (the 9.6V RC battery > 1/8" > PS2), did some research on the polarity, then got to it.  I know my polarity is right, and I know that the positive on my Tamiya connector is the positive on the 1/8", and the negative is the negative, and that there is no signal getting from one to the other.  I also know that the polarity on the 1/8" is wiring according to the Denecke's requirements.  Aside from those things, there is little, if anything, else that I know.  I understand that it seems far more likely for me to have made a mistake with my wiring somewhere than for a brand new battery to spontaneously crap out like that, but my tests seem to indicate that my end is looking good.  So unless the Denecke is doing weird things to the battery, I just don't know what, outside of having a bad battery, could be causing this.

Also-- what is this quick blow fuse you speak of? How does that work, what does it look like, how do I install one, where do I get one, and what does it do?  ;D
Mics: Busman BSC1's K1/K2/K3/K4, CA-14's
Units: 2x Edirol R-09HR, iRiver H120 (RockBox + 2200mAh + CF mod)
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Offline rowjimmytour

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Re: Melting Batteries
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2010, 06:52:57 PM »
Go to ratshack and buy a inline fuse holder:
http://www.radioshack.com/search/index.jsp?kwCatId=&kw=in%20line%20fuse%20holder&origkw=in%20line%20fuse%20holder&sr=1
And pick up some quick blow fuses .25.
Wire fuse holder on + side of cable inline near battery source and you should be good to go ;)
Are you sure inside the plug the sleeve and ring are not crossing wires? You can check by setting your multimeter to continuity and placing one  probe at each end of + side and you should hear a beep. Then do the same for - and try mixing + and - and see if you get a beep then you know you have short. I have had this problem w/ rca connectors so using a little electric tape around the sleeve>cable solder helps.
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Offline travelinbeat

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Re: Melting Batteries
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2010, 07:39:13 PM »
Are you sure inside the plug the sleeve and ring are not crossing wires? You can check by setting your multimeter to continuity and placing one  probe at each end of + side and you should hear a beep. Then do the same for - and try mixing + and - and see if you get a beep then you know you have short. I have had this problem w/ rca connectors so using a little electric tape around the sleeve>cable solder helps.

This is exactly how I tested the cable I made and it is solid.  Thanks for the info on the fuses-- is a 10-Amp sufficient?  The battery is 9.6v, but I don't know what it is in Amps or anything.  Also, exactly what will this fuse do for me?
« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 07:40:53 PM by travelinbeat »
Mics: Busman BSC1's K1/K2/K3/K4, CA-14's
Units: 2x Edirol R-09HR, iRiver H120 (RockBox + 2200mAh + CF mod)
Power & Accessories: Naiant Littlebox 1.5, Church ST-9100, Denecke PS-2, 2x Kingston SDHC (Model: SD2/8GB), 2x Kingston SDHC (Model: SD4/16GB), Kingston 32GB (Model: SD4/32GB), Darktrain XLR, 2x Shure A81WS's, 4x Powerex 9.6v, 12x Sanyo 2700 NiMH, 2x AT8410A's

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Offline bhtoque

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Re: Melting Batteries
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2010, 09:44:17 PM »
Brian-- 

The testing I did was pretty simple, just tested the cable I built to make sure that positive on one end was positive on the other end (and that negative was not getting any positive signal) and visa-versa.  I also tested the load it was carrying an it didn't seem to be "leaking" power anywhere.  The 1/8" does feel a little "soft" when plugged in all the way, it doesn't really give that nice SNAP, but rather a sort of soft cushiony feeling.  I still am not really sure how / why the deice would've worked during that one mic test too.  I've also heard strange things about the order in which people should power the PS2 / plug in mics / blah blah blah, but I really can't remember the details of it or why they are important.  I'd love to get a little more clarity on what's going on here, so thanks again to everyone following this thread.

Brian's point about the PS2 connection is spot on. I always connected the cable then plugged the battery into the tamia end. You'll occasionally see sparks if you plug a live cable into it.

Couple other bits about the PS2. It will hold a charge sufficient to power a set of mics for a minute or two after power is removed. It allows you to swap out batteries without losing signal. Also means that you should not pull mic connections from it right after unplugging.

Not sure about the time frame in your scenario, but it might explain why the gear ran after the battery started to go.

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Offline rowjimmytour

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Re: Melting Batteries
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2010, 11:09:05 PM »
Are you sure inside the plug the sleeve and ring are not crossing wires? You can check by setting your multimeter to continuity and placing one  probe at each end of + side and you should hear a beep. Then do the same for - and try mixing + and - and see if you get a beep then you know you have short. I have had this problem w/ rca connectors so using a little electric tape around the sleeve>cable solder helps.

This is exactly how I tested the cable I made and it is solid.  Thanks for the info on the fuses-- is a 10-Amp sufficient?  The battery is 9.6v, but I don't know what it is in Amps or anything.  Also, exactly what will this fuse do for me?
10 amp is overkill and if I remember right I always used .50 or .25 amp fuses. The in line fuse will save your gear and batteries from being damaged if you have a short.
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Offline travelinbeat

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Re: Melting Batteries
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2010, 02:36:12 AM »
So the idea then is once the fuse pops the circuit is cut?
Mics: Busman BSC1's K1/K2/K3/K4, CA-14's
Units: 2x Edirol R-09HR, iRiver H120 (RockBox + 2200mAh + CF mod)
Power & Accessories: Naiant Littlebox 1.5, Church ST-9100, Denecke PS-2, 2x Kingston SDHC (Model: SD2/8GB), 2x Kingston SDHC (Model: SD4/16GB), Kingston 32GB (Model: SD4/32GB), Darktrain XLR, 2x Shure A81WS's, 4x Powerex 9.6v, 12x Sanyo 2700 NiMH, 2x AT8410A's

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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: Melting Batteries
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2010, 08:27:39 AM »
So the idea then is once the fuse pops the circuit is cut?

Yup.

I'm putting my money on the plug not seating completely.  Try this:

  • Unplug the 1/8" / Tamiya connector from the battery and test continuity across the Tamiya and 1/8" connector's (+) and (-) terminals.  If there's no continuity across (+) and (-) terminals, the short isn't in the cable/connectors.  If there is continuity, the problem lies in the cable/connectors.  (I think you already did this test.)
  • Plug the 1/8" connector into the PS2, as before, but with no battery connected to the Tamiya connector.  Test continuity across the Tamiya connector's (+) and (-) terminals.  If there's no continuity, then the short is not in the cable/connectors (already confirmed in the first bullet) or the PS2 (which we just confirmed).  This suggests the problem lay elsewhere (with the battery or battery cable).  If there is continuity, then the problem is the PS2 shorting the 1/8" connector when it's plugged in.
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Offline travelinbeat

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Re: Melting Batteries
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2010, 03:34:39 PM »
Am I right to assume that the second test would involve opening up the PS2?
Mics: Busman BSC1's K1/K2/K3/K4, CA-14's
Units: 2x Edirol R-09HR, iRiver H120 (RockBox + 2200mAh + CF mod)
Power & Accessories: Naiant Littlebox 1.5, Church ST-9100, Denecke PS-2, 2x Kingston SDHC (Model: SD2/8GB), 2x Kingston SDHC (Model: SD4/16GB), Kingston 32GB (Model: SD4/32GB), Darktrain XLR, 2x Shure A81WS's, 4x Powerex 9.6v, 12x Sanyo 2700 NiMH, 2x AT8410A's

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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: Melting Batteries
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2010, 06:36:24 AM »
Am I right to assume that the second test would involve opening up the PS2?

Nope, not necessary.  Let me explain visually.  See attached for what I understand is your battery setup.  I didn't bother labeling, but in case it isn't obvious:  brown box = RC battery and maroon connector = Tamiya male.

The others are all labelled and hopefully make sense.  When you run this test, if there is continuity, then you've found the short.  If there is not continuity, then we have to keep digging.
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Re: Melting Batteries
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2010, 11:09:13 AM »
Brian that diagram helped a lot.  If I catch your meaning, I should be listening for the multimeter to stay silent, right?  That would be a good thing in this test?
Mics: Busman BSC1's K1/K2/K3/K4, CA-14's
Units: 2x Edirol R-09HR, iRiver H120 (RockBox + 2200mAh + CF mod)
Power & Accessories: Naiant Littlebox 1.5, Church ST-9100, Denecke PS-2, 2x Kingston SDHC (Model: SD2/8GB), 2x Kingston SDHC (Model: SD4/16GB), Kingston 32GB (Model: SD4/32GB), Darktrain XLR, 2x Shure A81WS's, 4x Powerex 9.6v, 12x Sanyo 2700 NiMH, 2x AT8410A's

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Offline setboy

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Re: Melting Batteries
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2010, 04:59:59 PM »
Man! I thought this was going to be a how to on melting batteries >:D

Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: Melting Batteries
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2010, 12:02:47 AM »
Brian that diagram helped a lot.  If I catch your meaning, I should be listening for the multimeter to stay silent, right?  That would be a good thing in this test?

Glad the diagram helped a lot...I, too, appreciate visual aids.  Different multimeters indicate continuity differently, but yes...your multimeter probably beeps when there's continuity.  So yes, silent would be a good thing.
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Re: Melting Batteries
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2010, 09:27:17 PM »
Brian that diagram helped a lot.  If I catch your meaning, I should be listening for the multimeter to stay silent, right?  That would be a good thing in this test?

Glad the diagram helped a lot...I, too, appreciate visual aids.  Different multimeters indicate continuity differently, but yes...your multimeter probably beeps when there's continuity.  So yes, silent would be a good thing.

Winner, Winner!!!!!  First time, the multimeter stayed silent, but I didn't trust it, so I was jostling the 1/8" and twisting things and it starting beeping like mad!  After that first silence, I couldn't get it to come back silent again! 

I inspected things all a little closer and realized that the mono plug I was using had a petruding plastic case which *might* have been preventing it from sitting all the way snug in.  The PS2's hole for the phono-plug looks to have been constructed by drilling a hole out of the casing, and then lining up the actual "guts" of the female end with the hole in the case.  Thus, if the plastic sheilding on my male was too thick, I couldn't get the connection nessisary, as the whole male end, tip and all, wouldn't reach easily (God it's hard not to make jokes right now....).

Next step I've taken has been to buy another 9.6V RC battery and build another Tamiya > 1/8" cable, though this time using Radio Shack's 274-0288 1/8" plug instead of their model number 274-286.  Now I have my new cable made with my new model number mono male, and everything is testing perfectly with the multimeter.  Below I am including pictures of the two products, as posted on Radio Shack's website, enlarged a bit, and presented with guidelines to emphasize difference.  I will also post this discovery in the thread which discusses constructing an external RC battery for the PS2, and finally, once my battery charges, I will be sure to check back in and let you know how it goes-- hopefully it will be good news!  Thanks to all who've read-on and weighed-in thus far!




EDIT to add follow-up:  Charged the battery, plugged in the unpowered 1/8" > Tamiya cable into the PS2, then plugged in the male Tamiya lead coming off of the battery.  The light on the PS2 clicked on, as it should, and I ran it by itself like that for about 5 minutes without noticing any real change in the battery temperature (using the ever so scientific "hand-test").  After five minutes I hooked up my BSC1's and plugged in R09HR and it looks like I'm getting some great levels!  I've been running the battery this way now for the past 30 minutes and it is slightly warmer than cool, unused batteries, but certainly not hot by any means, let alone anywhere NEAR as hot as it got last time.  Looks like my second wire has worked! 

Also, before I ran this test, as the battery was charging, I opened up the PS2 and tried to see if the older, plastic 1/8" plug would fit through the hole in the casing and as I'd come to suspect, it would not (the obvious next trial then, resulted in my discovering conclusively that the second, silver 1/8" plug slides right through). 

My final diagnosis, owed entirely to the help of you folks, is that the black plastic sleeved 1/8" plug was being prevented from making a good connection with the female 1/8" inside the PS2, therefore causing a short, and the very rapid heating, and ultimately melting, of my last battery.

A million thanks folks, I love this board =)
« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 02:16:41 AM by travelinbeat »
Mics: Busman BSC1's K1/K2/K3/K4, CA-14's
Units: 2x Edirol R-09HR, iRiver H120 (RockBox + 2200mAh + CF mod)
Power & Accessories: Naiant Littlebox 1.5, Church ST-9100, Denecke PS-2, 2x Kingston SDHC (Model: SD2/8GB), 2x Kingston SDHC (Model: SD4/16GB), Kingston 32GB (Model: SD4/32GB), Darktrain XLR, 2x Shure A81WS's, 4x Powerex 9.6v, 12x Sanyo 2700 NiMH, 2x AT8410A's

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