Topic: 722 hard drive questions..

[augwest71]

I have had it for a few years now and feel it is time to change my hard drive before i have problems.  2 questions!

when (did you/do you) change out the hard drive?

where is the best place to get a replacement??

thanks for your help!!

[jbell]

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=122474

I would check out this thread!!

[page]

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=122474

I would check out this thread!!

agreed, baustin did a great job documenting the stuff (and yes, change the battery too).

when (did you/do you) change out the hard drive?

where is the best place to get a replacement??

For some reason I swear SD recommends replacing the drive every 3-5 years depending on usage. I thought it was on their site but I can't find it now. Depending on how long you've had it will determine whether or not you need a PATA drive or an SATA drive. I think anything over 3 years is PATA but you can email support with your serial number and they will check for you. I had other things to get worked on anyway so I sent a drive with mine and they did it for me. Newegg has some economically inclined drives.

[notlance]

Here is what SD has to say about it, and I believe this is what page was looking for:

http://www.sounddevices.com/notes/recorders/drive-replacement/

SD also make a SATA interface for the 722 and 744T recorders:

http://www.sounddevices.com/news/xlsata
http://www.sounddevices.com/download/guides/xlsata_en.pdf

About a year ago I replaced the original PATA drive in my 722 with a 320 gig PATA drive.  I have some problems getting the 722 to recognize the 320 gig drive, but I finally got it to work.  However, after a few months the 722 would not initialize the HD when I powered up the recorder so I ended up putting the old drive back in.  If I put the 320 gig drive in an enclosure, it appears to work fine.  I have not pursued the problem further.  I think when I attempt to replace the 722 HD again I'll buy the XL-SATA interface and use a SATA drive.

The mechanical process of replacing the HD is not difficult and Sound Devices' instructions are clear.

[page]

Here is what SD has to say about it, and I believe this is what page was looking for:

http://www.sounddevices.com/notes/recorders/drive-replacement/

Bingo.

I swore it was 3 years but couldn't find it. Thanks!

[dream]

I replaced the drive in my 744T with an IDE SSD because I want it shockproof and I trust SSDs more than HDs.
It was easily done. there is a photo sequence on the SD side which shows what to do.

[page]

I replaced the drive in my 744T with an IDE SSD because I want it shockproof and I trust SSDs more than HDs.
It was easily done. there is a photo sequence on the SD side which shows what to do.

I almost did that for that very reason, but the increased draw left a bad taste in my mind. I figure I'll just record to both hdd and cf and call it good.

[OFOTD]

I replaced the drive in my 744T with an IDE SSD because I want it shockproof and I trust SSDs more than HDs.

Just for the record guys SSD's still have a much higher failure rate than traditional HD's.   While battery life may be slightly improved, reliability is not something that as of yet has been improved.

Having several SSD's in my home and office computers I can say they have their advantages in those applications but I would still be very hesitant in running a consumer SSD as my primary write source over a traditional hard drive.  At least for several more years.  Add to the fact that SSD's are in many cases 3x the price of a comparable platter based HD it makes you have to really think what the increased advantage is to spend that much more for not so much more.

Here's a link to NewEgg's hard drives that are compatible with the 7xx recorders:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100007605%20600003442&IsNodeId=1&name=IDE%20Ultra%20ATA100%20%2f%20ATA-6

I have one of the WD Scorpion Blue drives and have had zero problems with it.  For comparison the WD SB 160GB is $70 while over on the SSD side a reputable 160GB Intel drive is $399. 

[augwest71]

thanks everyone.  Thought it was about time to change it!!

[dream]

I replaced the drive in my 744T with an IDE SSD because I want it shockproof and I trust SSDs more than HDs.

(...) but I would still be very hesitant in running a consumer SSD as my primary write source over a traditional hard drive. (...)

Even Sound Devices disagrees with that. Not only you can order their top model 788T in a SSD version, they started mentioning SSDs some years ago:
http://www.sounddevices.com/notes/recorders/ssd/

[OFOTD]

I replaced the drive in my 744T with an IDE SSD because I want it shockproof and I trust SSDs more than HDs.

(...) but I would still be very hesitant in running a consumer SSD as my primary write source over a traditional hard drive. (...)

Even Sound Devices disagrees with that. Not only you can order their top model 788T in a SSD version, they started mentioning SSDs some years ago:
http://www.sounddevices.com/notes/recorders/ssd/

It's not real hard to figure out that Sound Devices is going with those SSD drives due to future availability.   Unless Sound Devices is getting some special batch of SSD's with fairy dust then they are using off the shelf consumer hard drives which I assume they probably buy in batches from a vendor like NewEgg.   

Here is what Sound Devices says in the link provided:

Solid State Hard Drives (SSD) in the 722 and 744T

Solid state hard drives, or SSD drives, are becoming a feasible storage medium for portable recorders and computers. Like CompactFlash cards, SSD drives have no moving parts and greatly extend the environmental operating conditions of the recorders. SSDs can operate in more severe temperature and vibration environments compared to traditional, spinning-disk hard drives. Additionally, they draw much less power than a traditional hard disk.

Compared to other solid state storage mediums such as CompactFlash, SD cards, P2 cards, and Express Card storage, SSDs have much higher storage capacities. Their larger physical size can accommodate more memory chips.

Transcend SSDSound Devices tested the Transcend SSD drive model TS32GSSD25-M. This drive performed properly, as expected, and can support up to four tracks of WAV audio recorded at 24 bit/96 kHz. We anticipate that other PATA (parallel ATA drives) SSDs to perform similarly.

Well its already been debunked that they draw much less power already once in this thread.  Then at the end they make the statement that they anticipate other PATA SSD's (there are extremely few PATA SSD's (<12) total on the market).   So assume they meant PATA IDE disks to perform similarly.   In that case its true because the throughput of the audio is far less that what any of those drives can handle on a regular basis.  Search for reviews on the Transcend drive they mentioned.  Not real favorable.

AnandTech has done several articles and studies linked to hard drive reliability.   Specifically with numbers of failure rates as well as manufacturer returns from both consumers and retailers.

I know how we all want to believe that SSD's are rock solid and outlast traditional HDD's but the truth is that in April of 2011 it's a myth.  There is no data as of yet to put SSD's over the top of HDD's especially in the case of using one in a 7xx recorder.   So far its all myth and marketing hype.  Just because SSD's don't have moving parts DOES NOT mean that they don't have other weak links and failure points.  At least we all know if a drive shits the bed you have a chance of recovering data from a HDD and no chance from a SSD.

Are there other reason's that lead you to believe that they are more reliable other than the 'no moving parts' argument?

[dream]

Are there other reason's that lead you to believe that they are more reliable other than the 'no moving parts' argument?

You may be on a mission here ... but for me that's a very strong argument. In my view HD technology is quite ancient, like tube monitors.
My MacBook Pro got a SSD to, I like the speed, the silence and the low heat. Nobody can tell you something about long time reliability.
I take the risk. If I want to be on the safe side with the 744T I can record simultaneously to the SSD or CF. Hey, I can even connect a HD
with FireWire ...

[OFOTD]

No real mission other than to just try and dispel a common myth.    Seen more SSD's fail in the last 2 years than I have seen HDD's in the last 8 or so.   Take that for what it's worth.

As I said before it'll be a couple years of advancement in SDD's before i'd consider choosing one over a platter drive as long as I have the choice.

[page]

I think there are many reasons to pick an SSD over an HDD, but reliability isn't what I think of. Use in shock/vibration environments is one, reduction in heat might be another. I view it as a specific tool for a specific job.

I'm actually surprised (still surprised as I knew it a while ago) that the SSD faired worse for power consumption than the stock HDD did in the 788.

[rastasean]

I know SSD is fast but considering this is pretty new technology, we've been doing just fine recording audio to HDD at 5400 or 7200 RPM. How would the average SD 744 improve swapping a 5400 rpm hdd with a ssd in terms of access time, write time, and overall performance? From what I've heard and read, it would not improve and the entire drive may fail unexpectedly.

FTP is a 40 year old protocol that is still used today and I find it MUCH more reliable than something like uploading via http or webdisks so this ancient protocol is still used today.

[OFOTD]

FTP is a 40 year old protocol that is still used today and I find it MUCH more reliable than something like uploading via http or webdisks so this ancient protocol is still used today.

Could not agree more with this statement.   Still don't understand why people will trust a 3rd party service (like Dropbox) for anything other than throwaway data.

I know SSD is fast but considering this is pretty new technology, we've been doing just fine recording audio to HDD at 5400 or 7200 RPM. How would the average SD 744 improve swapping a 5400 rpm hdd with a ssd in terms of access time, write time, and overall performance? From what I've heard and read, it would not improve and the entire drive may fail unexpectedly.

It will not improve a 744 other than shock resistance and heat.   Access time and write time don't matter in the case of the 744.  Sustained write times would be the performance factor to look for.  In the case of both SSD and HDD those basic sustained write times far exceed what the throughput of the 744 would be.

Another thing to remember with the larger SSD drives is that the Sound Devices firmware does not support TRIM commands so in theory you'd need to do a reformat of the SSD far more often than a regular HDD.

[dream]

Could not agree more with this statement.   Still don't understand why people will trust a 3rd party service (like Dropbox) for anything other than throwaway data.

You see ... that's the problem with your 'mission'. To bring SSD usage together with the DropBox madness is tricking. Maybe you can imagine other people with
technical expertise exist too. I use SSDs, but not DropBox, in fact I warn about it and pay for dedicated net storage with encryption. I even used digital recording when most of my colleges warned about it (analog freaks), similar in argumentation than yours now. I survived all that and made a good living since decades with my decisions. Not everybody making other technical decisions than you is plain dumb.

[OFOTD]

Could not agree more with this statement.   Still don't understand why people will trust a 3rd party service (like Dropbox) for anything other than throwaway data.

You see ... that's the problem with your 'mission'. To bring SSD usage together with the DropBox madness is tricking. Maybe you can imagine other people with
technical expertise exist too. I use SSDs, but not DropBox, in fact I warn about it and pay for dedicated net storage with encryption. I even used digital recording when most of my colleges warned about it (analog freaks), similar in argumentation than yours now. I survived all that and made a good living since decades with my decisions. Not everybody making other technical decisions than you is plain dumb.

My apologies as it seems like something may have been lost in the translation.  As far as my argument about SSD reliability vs. HDD reliability goes it's not really an argument at all.  It's based on what the reality of what their respective reliability is.   Today SSD's just are not as reliable.  Pretty cut and dry.   No one is saying that in the future SDD's won't surpass HDD's in reliability but as of 2011 that's just not the case.

If heat and shock are your two biggest requirements then by all means go SSD.  If reliability, price per GB, capacity, power drain and overall compatibility are more important then HDD's are the way to go.   Living in Texas I can attest that running my 744 in 115°+ heat all day at a festival I have never once had a heat related shutdown with a HDD.   

[it-goes-to-eleven]

No real mission other than to just try and dispel a common myth.    Seen more SSD's fail in the last 2 years than I have seen HDD's in the last 8 or so.   Take that for what it's worth.

Agree.  People often assume new technology is superior, even when it isn't yet mature.  Case in point - I know far more people on this forum who have had SD and CF problems vs. HD problems in portable recorders.  It really is amazing that hard drives work at all, but they do work amazingly well.

The notebook hard drives used in the 7xx recorders are extremely refined technology.  The lack of failures reported on this forum is a major indicator of their maturity.

It is very easy for an electrical problem to render an SSD unreadable.  With a hard drive, the data tends to remain on the platters.

[dream]

Could not agree more with this statement.   Still don't understand why people will trust a 3rd party service (like Dropbox) for anything other than throwaway data.

You see ... that's the problem with your 'mission'. To bring SSD usage together with the DropBox madness is tricking. Maybe you can imagine other people with
technical expertise exist too. I use SSDs, but not DropBox, in fact I warn about it and pay for dedicated net storage with encryption. I even used digital recording when most of my colleges warned about it (analog freaks), similar in argumentation than yours now. I survived all that and made a good living since decades with my decisions. Not everybody making other technical decisions than you is plain dumb.

My apologies as it seems like something may have been lost in the translation.  As far as my argument about SSD reliability vs. HDD reliability goes it's not really an argument at all.  It's based on what the reality of what their respective reliability is.   Today SSD's just are not as reliable.  Pretty cut and dry.   No one is saying that in the future SDD's won't surpass HDD's in reliability but as of 2011 that's just not the case.

If heat and shock are your two biggest requirements then by all means go SSD.  If reliability, price per GB, capacity, power drain and overall compatibility are more important then HDD's are the way to go.   Living in Texas I can attest that running my 744 in 115°+ heat all day at a festival I have never once had a heat related shutdown with a HDD.

No problem. Shock resistance is important for me, as I want to walk around with my 744T, not thinking about it may get accidentally bumped around a bit. I had regular notebook drives fail after a bump.
As I wrote, critical things are recorded simultaneously to CF and SSD, therefore a backup is made. Every technology can fail and I personally can take the risk for my work as we don't have long term experiences with SSDs. Mostly I record on CF anyway for convenience. People had CF cards fail too ... I cannot remember having one failing in over 10 years (I'm a photographer too), although I have seen some fail for others.
Sound Devices new video HD recorder is announced using CF and SSD only ... what does this tell us?
http://www.sounddevices.com/products/pix.htm

[page]

Sound Devices new video HD recorder is announced using CF and SSD only ... what does this tell us?
http://www.sounddevices.com/products/pix.htm

It unfortunately doesn't (because of multiple causation and lack of information).

They could have opted for the SSD because of a size requirement that couldn't be met with drives that were as reliable. They could have because they now have SSDs that are more reliable. It could have been due to the environmental risk that they are assuming those machines will be in compared to what they assume ours will be in. If the next round of 744s or a 766 or whatever was SSD only, that would give me more reason to infer something.

[SClassical]

I actually use an IDE-CF adapter/CF inside my 722 and it works great. I did it because I can easily upgrade my internal memory by replacing CF cards which is easier. And the old one can be used for other devices or used as a backup in my 722 CF slot. I also run a SDHC card (using a SD/CF adapter) or a CF as my other backup. So I have 2 solid state drives running at the same time. Never had a problem..So everything is quite solid and reliable. I sort of invented the whole setup so maybe I'm the only person doing it this way. I used to have a HD inside my 722 but I was too worried it will break with all the vibrations/bumps my recorder goes through while travelling. So now I'm very happy that it worked out well for me for a long time.

[ghellquist]

I recently transplanted a small PATA SSD into my SD 722. Here are the reasoning "after the fact" for me.

First of all, why change. After all, if it a´int broke, don´t fix it. Well, my machine has reached a certain age and why not? Good time of the year sort of right now. ( critique , not really that well argued )

The options for me was either a PATA SSD ( there are a few available ) or new harddisk.

Price -- SSD about 4 times as expensive, not very much money though as both came below the cost radar
Capacity -- about same, never had problems with 32G in my machine, so 64 seems reasonable
Power consumption -- about same for the total system
Performance -- both good enough
Weight, other factors -- both good enough
Reliability -- probably compareable in my usage. The harddisc has never had a problem. According to the numbers, as far as I can understand, I can expect the SSD to hold the next 10 years. From the manufacturer spec: Write endurance 80years@10GBytes write and erase per day at 128GB and 10 years data retention.

So basically, just for the fun of it. Will report back if things change.

My choice was one that a distributor around here happened to have in store:
MICROSTORAGE 1.8" 64GB SSD PATA MLC
MSD-PA18.1-064MJ
Had to pad it up with some extra foam as it is smaller than the 2,5" harddisc.

Thinking right now if I want to speed up one of my old laptops with a SSD. Not quite certain that it is worth the effort, might want to have a new instead ....


// Gunnar

[AB52]

If you hook up a 722 to computer - do you have access to the hard drive - i.e. for reformatting it?  I assume so.
Intel makes an SSD with a special toolbox that will trim it.
Though I imagine if you just download the audio and reformat the drive - that should take care of it.
I wonder how many reformats an SSD can handle?
Sorry for all the questions - but here is another - how critical is a hard drive in these SD units?  Is the compact flash reliable enough?
THANKS,
AB

[mmedley.]

It's not real hard to figure out that Sound Devices is going with those SSD drives due to future availability.   Unless Sound Devices is getting some special batch of SSD's with fairy dust then they are using off the shelf consumer hard drives which I assume they probably buy in batches from a vendor like NewEgg.   

Here is what Sound Devices says in the link provided:

Solid State Hard Drives (SSD) in the 722 and 744T

Solid state hard drives, or SSD drives, are becoming a feasible storage medium for portable recorders and computers. Like CompactFlash cards, SSD drives have no moving parts and greatly extend the environmental operating conditions of the recorders. SSDs can operate in more severe temperature and vibration environments compared to traditional, spinning-disk hard drives. Additionally, they draw much less power than a traditional hard disk.

Compared to other solid state storage mediums such as CompactFlash, SD cards, P2 cards, and Express Card storage, SSDs have much higher storage capacities. Their larger physical size can accommodate more memory chips.

Transcend SSDSound Devices tested the Transcend SSD drive model TS32GSSD25-M. This drive performed properly, as expected, and can support up to four tracks of WAV audio recorded at 24 bit/96 kHz. We anticipate that other PATA (parallel ATA drives) SSDs to perform similarly.

Well its already been debunked that they draw much less power already once in this thread.  Then at the end they make the statement that they anticipate other PATA SSD's (there are extremely few PATA SSD's (<12) total on the market).   So assume they meant PATA IDE disks to perform similarly.   In that case its true because the throughput of the audio is far less that what any of those drives can handle on a regular basis.  Search for reviews on the Transcend drive they mentioned.  Not real favorable.

AnandTech has done several articles and studies linked to hard drive reliability.   Specifically with numbers of failure rates as well as manufacturer returns from both consumers and retailers.

I know how we all want to believe that SSD's are rock solid and outlast traditional HDD's but the truth is that in April of 2011 it's a myth.  There is no data as of yet to put SSD's over the top of HDD's especially in the case of using one in a 7xx recorder.   So far its all myth and marketing hype.  Just because SSD's don't have moving parts DOES NOT mean that they don't have other weak links and failure points.  At least we all know if a drive shits the bed you have a chance of recovering data from a HDD and no chance from a SSD.

Are there other reason's that lead you to believe that they are more reliable other than the 'no moving parts' argument?

Keep in mind this data is what, 3 years old? In 788T's is an undeniable fact that the SSD outperforms its non-SSD brethren. It has been fairly well documented that excessive heat in 788T's causes erratic and inconsistent operation in non-SSD units.

I drink SSD kool-aid.   

[F.O.Bean]

It's not real hard to figure out that Sound Devices is going with those SSD drives due to future availability.   Unless Sound Devices is getting some special batch of SSD's with fairy dust then they are using off the shelf consumer hard drives which I assume they probably buy in batches from a vendor like NewEgg.   

Here is what Sound Devices says in the link provided:

Solid State Hard Drives (SSD) in the 722 and 744T

Solid state hard drives, or SSD drives, are becoming a feasible storage medium for portable recorders and computers. Like CompactFlash cards, SSD drives have no moving parts and greatly extend the environmental operating conditions of the recorders. SSDs can operate in more severe temperature and vibration environments compared to traditional, spinning-disk hard drives. Additionally, they draw much less power than a traditional hard disk.

Compared to other solid state storage mediums such as CompactFlash, SD cards, P2 cards, and Express Card storage, SSDs have much higher storage capacities. Their larger physical size can accommodate more memory chips.

Transcend SSDSound Devices tested the Transcend SSD drive model TS32GSSD25-M. This drive performed properly, as expected, and can support up to four tracks of WAV audio recorded at 24 bit/96 kHz. We anticipate that other PATA (parallel ATA drives) SSDs to perform similarly.

Well its already been debunked that they draw much less power already once in this thread.  Then at the end they make the statement that they anticipate other PATA SSD's (there are extremely few PATA SSD's (<12) total on the market).   So assume they meant PATA IDE disks to perform similarly.   In that case its true because the throughput of the audio is far less that what any of those drives can handle on a regular basis.  Search for reviews on the Transcend drive they mentioned.  Not real favorable.

AnandTech has done several articles and studies linked to hard drive reliability.   Specifically with numbers of failure rates as well as manufacturer returns from both consumers and retailers.

I know how we all want to believe that SSD's are rock solid and outlast traditional HDD's but the truth is that in April of 2011 it's a myth.  There is no data as of yet to put SSD's over the top of HDD's especially in the case of using one in a 7xx recorder.   So far its all myth and marketing hype.  Just because SSD's don't have moving parts DOES NOT mean that they don't have other weak links and failure points.  At least we all know if a drive shits the bed you have a chance of recovering data from a HDD and no chance from a SSD.

Are there other reason's that lead you to believe that they are more reliable other than the 'no moving parts' argument?

Keep in mind this data is what, 3 years old? In 788T's is an undeniable fact that the SSD outperforms its non-SSD brethren. It has been fairly well documented that excessive heat in 788T's causes erratic and inconsistent operation in non-SSD units.

I drink SSD kool-aid.   

 Don't you mean LSD Kool-Aid

[2manyrocks]

I actually use an IDE-CF adapter/CF inside my 722 and it works great. I did it because I can easily upgrade my internal memory by replacing CF cards which is easier. And the old one can be used for other devices or used as a backup in my 722 CF slot. I also run a SDHC card (using a SD/CF adapter) or a CF as my other backup. So I have 2 solid state drives running at the same time. Never had a problem..So everything is quite solid and reliable. I sort of invented the whole setup so maybe I'm the only person doing it this way. I used to have a HD inside my 722 but I was too worried it will break with all the vibrations/bumps my recorder goes through while travelling. So now I'm very happy that it worked out well for me for a long time.

Bumping back to the top because I'm considering a used 722 from 2005 that has a replacement IDE drive in it.  I'd rather just have SDHC or SDXC in place of the hard drive.  Is this hard to do and about how much does it cost? 

[vegeta_ban]

looks like you can get an adapter for about 10-20 bucks for IDE-SD. I don't know how well they work though.

[MakersMarc]

Anyone know best price for a new hard drive compatible with a 722?

[thunderbolt]

You need a 2.5 inch PATA drive running at 5400 rpm (you'll have to buy a $100 adapter from SD if you want a SATA drive).  You can buy an 80 GB WD Scorpio Blue from Amazon for $38 and change.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Has anyone noticed any difference between the $100 adapter from SD and generic? I would guess that there are plenty of other commodity PATA to SATA adapters that would work for a lot less than $100.

[hi and lo]

Has anyone noticed any difference between the $100 adapter from SD and generic? I would guess that there are plenty of other commodity PATA to SATA adapters that would work for a lot less than $100.

Not sure, the replacement XL-Sata from Sound Devices isn't really an adapter. It's an entirely new ribbon cable with accompanying electronics that plugs directly into the main board, so I would think almost everything about is proprietary and specific to SD products.

In any event, I've been using mine for over a year and love being able to use a recent gen SSD. Really handy when you accidentally forget to bring an SD card.

[thunderbolt]

Not sure, the replacement XL-Sata from Sound Devices isn't really an adapter. It's an entirely new ribbon cable with accompanying electronics that plugs directly into the main board, so I would think almost everything about is proprietary and specific to SD products.

In any event, I've been using mine for over a year and love being able to use a recent gen SSD. Really handy when you accidentally forget to bring an SD card.

Totally agree.  When I had a 744, I bought a SATA adapter and a new HD.  I guess I've been burned too many times in the past by discontinued products like that, so I wanted to make sure it would be future-proof.