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Author Topic: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)  (Read 52238 times)

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Offline hi and lo

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #60 on: November 15, 2012, 04:21:47 PM »
Regarding the "Inner" (Trim) knob on the R-44, I would recommend never being extremely cautious when adjusting it from the default 12 o'clock position. On the R-44, this knob affects gain after the A/D stage and is applying digital gain or trim. This is problematic not so much because of the affect it might have on overall sound-quality, but because the recording level monitors will not accurate display the levels as they are before they hit the A/D stage. The levels displayed on the LCD screen are going to represent post-A/D signal levels making it entirely possible to overload the A/D, but having the level meters show a signal well below 0dB.

This is one area where I feel the DR-680 has a clear design advantage as the the entire gain range of that recorder operates in the analog domain (before the A/D).
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 04:35:05 PM by hi and lo »
Friends don't let friends buy tube mics...

Mics: Schoeps MK21 / MK22 / MK4 / MK4V / MK41V / MK41 / MK5; Neumann SKM140; AKG 480/CK61; MBHO 603/KA200N / DPA 4061 / Dynamic Audio Binaurals
Pres & A/Ds: E.A.A. PSP-2 (2x) / Aeta PSP-3 / Sonosax SX-M2 (2x) / Grace V3 / Naiant Tinybox v2.x (Reutelhuber) / Nbox+ / AD2k+ / SBM-1 (2x)
Recorders: 744T / R-44 / PCM-M10 (2x)

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Offline hi and lo

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #61 on: November 15, 2012, 04:23:31 PM »
...so, if I read this right, it's OK to use that to BOOST the signal (i.e., run it past 12 o'clock), just not reduce it, since that creates the potential clipping issue.


bingo
Friends don't let friends buy tube mics...

Mics: Schoeps MK21 / MK22 / MK4 / MK4V / MK41V / MK41 / MK5; Neumann SKM140; AKG 480/CK61; MBHO 603/KA200N / DPA 4061 / Dynamic Audio Binaurals
Pres & A/Ds: E.A.A. PSP-2 (2x) / Aeta PSP-3 / Sonosax SX-M2 (2x) / Grace V3 / Naiant Tinybox v2.x (Reutelhuber) / Nbox+ / AD2k+ / SBM-1 (2x)
Recorders: 744T / R-44 / PCM-M10 (2x)

Quote from: it-goes-to-eleven

It isn't fear. It isn't subjective. You can measure it on a scope.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #62 on: November 15, 2012, 04:37:26 PM »
Sweet. I will def remember that technique

I just posted photos of the setup in my oddball mic techniques thread here-http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=96009.msg2005010#msg2005010  The same setup using the full-sized Microtech Gefells instead of the miniature ATs is one post above the post linked here.
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Offline mepaca

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #63 on: November 15, 2012, 09:13:14 PM »
The outer knob acts like an input trim knob on a mixing board. The hotter the input the lower the setting. For line level or a line level board feed
the knob should be set close to zero. For mic level it should be set closer to high noon. The outer knobs should never be moved during recording.
The inner knob acts more like a fader on a mixing board. Minute adjustments can be made there if necessary.

Offline jb63

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #64 on: November 15, 2012, 10:57:30 PM »
The outer knob acts like an input trim knob on a mixing board. The hotter the input the lower the setting. For line level or a line level board feed
the knob should be set close to zero. For mic level it should be set closer to high noon. The outer knobs should never be moved during recording.
The inner knob acts more like a fader on a mixing board. Minute adjustments can be made there if necessary.

Well, that's all good and fine, but now you're just talking smack.

I'm sure you are all way more knowledgable than me, but those 2 dials (inner and outer) are all you get to adjust the levels, so I HAVE to be able to adjust ONE of them.

"Adjusting the input levels
1. Turn the Input level knob [SENS] (outer) all the way left.
2. Turn the Input level knob [LEVEL] (inner) to the center position. This position is 0 dB.
3. Hold down the [PAUSE] button and press the [REC] button.
The R-44 enters recording standby mode. During recording standby, the [REC] button blinks
and the indication alternates between REC and STANDBY.
4. Play the sound to be recorded into the microphone.
Gradually turn the Input level knob [SENS] toward the right.
Sensitivity has 11 steps of +4, -2, -8, -14, -20, -26, -32, -38, -44, -50, and -56 dBu.
* When the channel name display reverses, the input level has reached the clipping level. Set the knob
to the position just before the display reverses. "

Ack!
This is just too confusing...
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 12:23:57 AM by jb63 »
this is definitely not normal

Offline hi and lo

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #65 on: November 16, 2012, 10:29:54 AM »

... but those 2 dials (inner and outer) are all you get to adjust the levels, so I HAVE to be able to adjust ONE of them.


Yes. Only use the outer "clicky" knob if you aren't usingan  external pre with continuously variable gain. Never use the inner knob because it's digital gain or attenuation. There's zero reason to apply digital gain in the field and if it's used to attenuate, you risk clipping before the A/D.

Just remember that when recording in 24bit, you've got a lot of headroom to work with. The clicky wheel isn't mean to dial in your levels as hot as possible, but you don't need to! Peaking anywhere from -18dB to -12dB is still going to net you a recording with better than 16bit avg bit depth.
Friends don't let friends buy tube mics...

Mics: Schoeps MK21 / MK22 / MK4 / MK4V / MK41V / MK41 / MK5; Neumann SKM140; AKG 480/CK61; MBHO 603/KA200N / DPA 4061 / Dynamic Audio Binaurals
Pres & A/Ds: E.A.A. PSP-2 (2x) / Aeta PSP-3 / Sonosax SX-M2 (2x) / Grace V3 / Naiant Tinybox v2.x (Reutelhuber) / Nbox+ / AD2k+ / SBM-1 (2x)
Recorders: 744T / R-44 / PCM-M10 (2x)

Quote from: it-goes-to-eleven

It isn't fear. It isn't subjective. You can measure it on a scope.

Offline cybergaloot

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #66 on: November 16, 2012, 10:37:26 AM »

... but those 2 dials (inner and outer) are all you get to adjust the levels, so I HAVE to be able to adjust ONE of them.


Yes. Only use the outer "clicky" knob if you aren't usingan  external pre with continuously variable gain. Never use the inner knob because it's digital gain or attenuation. There's zero reason to apply digital gain in the field and if it's used to attenuate, you risk clipping before the A/D.

If you use the line outs to feed another device then you may want to use the digital gain. I have used the outputs to feed CD burners and in that case you want the signal as strong as possible so the digital gain comes in handy. Otherwise you are correct, you can deal with it in post.
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MICS: Line Audio CM3, CA-11 (O & C), CA-14 (C), CAFS, Studio Project C4 (O,C, HC), Studio Project LSD2, ADK-tl, ADK-A6, ADK-5.1, MXL 603S, JM-27s, Sennheiser e600 Drum Pack, Avantone Drum Mic kit, Shure MX393S
RECORDERS: H2, DR-40, R16, R-44, HD24, DR-2D, DR-44WL, Denon DN-500R
PRES: CA-UGLY, CA-9000, UA-5, Art USB Dual Tube Pre, Focusrite Platinum Octopre (X2)
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #67 on: November 16, 2012, 10:40:05 AM »
"Adjusting the input levels
1. Turn the Input level knob [SENS] (outer) all the way left.
2. Turn the Input level knob [LEVEL] (inner) to the center position. This position is 0 dB.
3. Hold down the [PAUSE] button and press the [REC] button.
The R-44 enters recording standby mode. During recording standby, the [REC] button blinks
and the indication alternates between REC and STANDBY.
4. Play the sound to be recorded into the microphone.
Gradually turn the Input level knob [SENS] toward the right.
Sensitivity has 11 steps of +4, -2, -8, -14, -20, -26, -32, -38, -44, -50, and -56 dBu.
* When the channel name display reverses, the input level has reached the clipping level. Set the knob
to the position just before the display reverses. "

Ack!
This is just too confusing...

Not really.  All the above says in condensed form is: "leave the inner knob at 12:00 and adjust levels using the outer knob"
You needn't make it any more complicated than that if you don't care to.
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Offline jb63

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #68 on: November 16, 2012, 01:52:33 PM »
OK.
So last night I created a pile of preamps, cables and recorders and trotted off to see a quiet jazz ensemble & 2 loud rock bands.
The idea was that I would feed the stereo channels as a line feed from the pres. I was hoping that I would be able to not tough either of the knobs and just adjust the levels with the preamps, but I still ended up messing with those outer knobs.

And I still ended up with levels needing to be boosted in post.

But I think I have the hang of it now. I was thinking of using 2 tinyboxes, but i am sure since they have switchable inputs i would still be fiddling with those knobs.

Here is some gear porn for you. The bag was a $2 purchase at a thrift shop that I used this summer for jon's midbox.

« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 01:54:20 PM by jb63 »
this is definitely not normal

Offline jb63

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #69 on: November 16, 2012, 02:01:22 PM »
Just a few more before I get back to work...

The Naiant Midbox is a monster.
It may actually be too much preamp for me. The way I had it configured in the bag I barely had access to it, but it has so many outs on it that I ran a backup line to the M10.

I changed the angle of Bean's right angle interconnects and was able to get this all together, but it sure left a mess of cables on the other side of the bag.

Channels 1 & 2 were the schoeps through the apogee Mini MP, while 3 & 4 were dpa4021 through the Naiant Midbox.

It turned out like this, and when it clipped at the very beginning of the show, even after I set the levels during the soundcheck, I instinctively notched the outer (sens) knob down a click. Then of course the levels were too low.

Thanks again for all the help!

this is definitely not normal

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #70 on: November 16, 2012, 02:07:21 PM »
The bag was a $2 purchase at a thrift shop that I used this summer for jon's midbox.

When I hit the thrift stores I always look for bags and water tight boxes. Last time I bought an old 8mm VHS camera for $4.95 just to get the bag it came in.
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Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects. Will Rogers


MICS: Line Audio CM3, CA-11 (O & C), CA-14 (C), CAFS, Studio Project C4 (O,C, HC), Studio Project LSD2, ADK-tl, ADK-A6, ADK-5.1, MXL 603S, JM-27s, Sennheiser e600 Drum Pack, Avantone Drum Mic kit, Shure MX393S
RECORDERS: H2, DR-40, R16, R-44, HD24, DR-2D, DR-44WL, Denon DN-500R
PRES: CA-UGLY, CA-9000, UA-5, Art USB Dual Tube Pre, Focusrite Platinum Octopre (X2)
STUFF: Patchbox I, Patchbox II, ZED-22fx, ZED-24, Soundcraft Si Impact, TOA D-4 + 2X D-4E, M-Audio MobilePre, compressors, Alesis MultiMix 8 Line Mixer 
PLUS: Gaffers tape, lot's of gaffer's tape! And cables, lot's of cables.

Offline acidjack

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #71 on: November 16, 2012, 02:17:24 PM »
Just a few more before I get back to work...

The Naiant Midbox is a monster.
It may actually be too much preamp for me. The way I had it configured in the bag I barely had access to it, but it has so many outs on it that I ran a backup line to the M10.

I changed the angle of Bean's right angle interconnects and was able to get this all together, but it sure left a mess of cables on the other side of the bag.

Channels 1 & 2 were the schoeps through the apogee Mini MP, while 3 & 4 were dpa4021 through the Naiant Midbox.

It turned out like this, and when it clipped at the very beginning of the show, even after I set the levels during the soundcheck, I instinctively notched the outer (sens) knob down a click. Then of course the levels were too low.

Thanks again for all the help!

Ahhh, my (former) sweet little DPAs  :'(  I miss them, I really do.

It's really not that hard.  I've used the -44 enough that I pretty much know what "clicky" (what I like to call the outer knob) to use... generally if it's a board I know it'll be at 9 o'clock at the highest, unless the engineer trims the output gain on the feed for me.  With mics running off of the internal pres, 11 o'clock usually works with the louder music. 

You can't adjust the clickys while recording, but usually there's an opener or at least a little soundchecking you can use.  Also, fwiw, I have (gasp!) adjusted the clickys between songs if I was running WAY too low or too hot.

If your pre is feeding in an analog signal to the -44, then you should always be adjusting on the pre and never on the -44 anyway.  With the Aerco, which has fairly hot outputs, I usually set the -44 at 9 o'clock. 
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun
Installed: AT 4051
Pres/Power: Aeta PSP3, tinybox v2  [KCY], CA-UBB
Decks: Zoom F8, R-26, M10, D50

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Offline hi and lo

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #72 on: November 16, 2012, 02:55:54 PM »

You can't adjust the clickys while recording...


That's something I didn't know and seems like terrible design. +1 for the 680 (again!).
Friends don't let friends buy tube mics...

Mics: Schoeps MK21 / MK22 / MK4 / MK4V / MK41V / MK41 / MK5; Neumann SKM140; AKG 480/CK61; MBHO 603/KA200N / DPA 4061 / Dynamic Audio Binaurals
Pres & A/Ds: E.A.A. PSP-2 (2x) / Aeta PSP-3 / Sonosax SX-M2 (2x) / Grace V3 / Naiant Tinybox v2.x (Reutelhuber) / Nbox+ / AD2k+ / SBM-1 (2x)
Recorders: 744T / R-44 / PCM-M10 (2x)

Quote from: it-goes-to-eleven

It isn't fear. It isn't subjective. You can measure it on a scope.

Offline capnhook

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #73 on: November 16, 2012, 03:05:59 PM »

You can't adjust the clickys while recording...


That's something I didn't know and seems like terrible design. +1 for the 680 (again!).

HUH?  Me neither....great thread.  Thanks y'all....
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Offline cybergaloot

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #74 on: November 16, 2012, 03:47:25 PM »

You can't adjust the clickys while recording...


That's something I didn't know and seems like terrible design. +1 for the 680 (again!).

Sure you can. Its just that it is in 6db jumps, not a nice smooth curve. In a way that is nice because if you look hard enough you can find the microsecond gap that marks where the change was made and use that as the spot to make a selection in post to adjust levels. On a related note, I've heard people worry about that tiny gap. If you can hear it go by then your ears are way to sensitive.
HUH?  Me neither....great thread.  Thanks y'all....
--
Walter

Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects. Will Rogers


MICS: Line Audio CM3, CA-11 (O & C), CA-14 (C), CAFS, Studio Project C4 (O,C, HC), Studio Project LSD2, ADK-tl, ADK-A6, ADK-5.1, MXL 603S, JM-27s, Sennheiser e600 Drum Pack, Avantone Drum Mic kit, Shure MX393S
RECORDERS: H2, DR-40, R16, R-44, HD24, DR-2D, DR-44WL, Denon DN-500R
PRES: CA-UGLY, CA-9000, UA-5, Art USB Dual Tube Pre, Focusrite Platinum Octopre (X2)
STUFF: Patchbox I, Patchbox II, ZED-22fx, ZED-24, Soundcraft Si Impact, TOA D-4 + 2X D-4E, M-Audio MobilePre, compressors, Alesis MultiMix 8 Line Mixer 
PLUS: Gaffers tape, lot's of gaffer's tape! And cables, lot's of cables.

 

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