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Author Topic: Gefell Nickel diaphragm mics (mv294, 295, capsules m70, m94)?  (Read 7104 times)

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Offline illconditioned

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Anyone out there using Gefell's Nickel diaphragm mics?  These are supposed to be just killer. 0.8 micron nickel (pure metal) diaphragm!

Some of these are very old, and in very rough shape.  However, one Ebay vendor (hear2eternity) is selling off a bunch of m70 capsules that are supposedly reconditioned.  He told me they were reskinned by a former Gefell tech.  So, I took a chance and bought two m70 cardioid capsules.  Apparently the m94 are better for distance recording, but I think the m70 are still good.  I would consider buying the m94 if I could verify that the diaphragms were still good.  I noticed that the newer mics (mv295, mv295) are something like $1600 each.  Well, that is a lot of money, but I wonder if these would sound better than Scheops.  Also, the mv296 in that family is omni and has the genuine measurement capsule.  For $1600 you can get the real deal.

  Richard




Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

Sample recordings at: http://www.soundmann.com.

Offline H₂O

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Offline illconditioned

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Re: Gefell Nickel diaphragm mics (mv294, 295, capsules m70, m94)?
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2012, 05:59:04 PM »
Yeah, I've listened to a few of those recordings, tube mics with m94 capsules.  Nice sounding venue too.

I'm planning on just running the m70 capsules alone, with some wires, duct tape, and hot melt glue...

  Richard
Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

Sample recordings at: http://www.soundmann.com.

Offline DSatz

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Re: Gefell Nickel diaphragm mics (mv294, 295, capsules m70, m94)?
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2012, 07:38:56 PM »
?? The material used for a condenser microphone's diaphragm isn't a major factor in the sound of the microphone. It isn't necessarily even audible on a direct comparison. Nickel as a diaphragm material has no "sound" of its own.

I used to own a pair of tube microphones with nickel diaphragms. One of the diaphragms needed replacing, and unbeknownst to me it was replaced (at the factory) with Mylar. When that capsule came back, I started using it again and never noticed any change in sound quality. The other microphone in the pair still had its original nickel diaphragm; they just didn't sound any more different from one another than any two other microphones of the same type generally do. It was months before it even occurred to me to ask the factory about the replacement diaphragm.

I'm no Gefell expert, but wasn't the M 70 originally made with PVC, and then in more recent decades with Mylar? I don't think I've ever heard of a metal diaphragm being used in an M 70 capsule.

--best regards
« Last Edit: January 14, 2017, 12:29:15 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline illconditioned

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Re: Gefell Nickel diaphragm mics (mv294, 295, capsules m70, m94)?
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2012, 08:21:20 PM »
Dear David,

Thanks for you input.  Do you recall what mic you had?  Not the body, but the capsule?

As far as I can tell (by Google search and Google images, and the site "recordinghacks.com") there are just two metal capsules, the M70, and the M94.  There are a few earlier variants of the M94 (M56? or something) that were Neuman (before they split?).  There is also the Neuman M50.  I have not seen or heard these mics, though.  Well, I've listened to some M94 stuff on Archive.org.  I've also listened to an acoustic recording, drums: //http://soundcloud.com/lee-cardan/sets/eastern-bloc-studios-sdc-mic/.

I'm just beginning to explore this space.  Eventually I should compare M70 to some known quanitty like AKG 461.  I've only got 63 capsules, so I'm also looking for a set of ck61's.

  Richard

Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

Sample recordings at: http://www.soundmann.com.

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Gefell Nickel diaphragm mics (mv294, 295, capsules m70, m94)?
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2012, 09:14:10 PM »
Well, that is a lot of money, but I wonder if these would sound better than Scheops.

NOTHING sounds better than Schoeps ;D :P
Schoeps MK4's & MK41's ->
Schoeps | NBob 250/05 KCY's ->
Schoeps VMS02IB | Naiant +60v PFA's ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's ->
Tascam DR-70D's ->
128gb & 64gb SanDisk Extreme Pro SD Cards

FiiO E10K DAC/HP Amp & E11K HP Amp ->
Sony MDR-7506 Cans & SA-VA15 Speakers | Monster iSport Victory Earbuds

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean | http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420 | http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php

Offline H₂O

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Re: Gefell Nickel diaphragm mics (mv294, 295, capsules m70, m94)?
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2012, 09:38:09 PM »
There is nickel diaphragm Schoeps as well the original m221 series caps (excluding the c versions) - mk22, mk23, mk24, mk240, mk241, mk26, mk28, m934, m934b- probably earlier Schoeps as well m201, cv51, etc

The Neumann KM53, KM54, and KM56 are all originally nickel diaphragm's as well.

I would think most condenser mics designed in the 1950's and before used some sort of metal diaphragm and most probably used nickel.  In the early to mid 1960's they transitioned to gold sputtered mylar.


 
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Offline illconditioned

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Re: Gefell Nickel diaphragm mics (mv294, 295, capsules m70, m94)?
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2012, 10:07:13 PM »
Well, thanks for that information.  I want to just sit a pair of these mics side by side with a known quantity and hear for myself.

  Richard

Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

Sample recordings at: http://www.soundmann.com.

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Gefell Nickel diaphragm mics (mv294, 295, capsules m70, m94)?
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2012, 10:26:05 PM »
Yes, thanks for the info. I learn something new everyday here :)
Schoeps MK4's & MK41's ->
Schoeps | NBob 250/05 KCY's ->
Schoeps VMS02IB | Naiant +60v PFA's ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's ->
Tascam DR-70D's ->
128gb & 64gb SanDisk Extreme Pro SD Cards

FiiO E10K DAC/HP Amp & E11K HP Amp ->
Sony MDR-7506 Cans & SA-VA15 Speakers | Monster iSport Victory Earbuds

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean | http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420 | http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php

Offline H₂O

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Re: Gefell Nickel diaphragm mics (mv294, 295, capsules m70, m94)?
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2012, 10:34:00 PM »
It is important to point out that microphone manufacturers moved away from nickel to gold sputtered diaphragms was that nickel diaphragms where/are much more fragile versus gold sputtered diaphragms.
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Offline illconditioned

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Re: Gefell Nickel diaphragm mics (mv294, 295, capsules m70, m94)?
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2012, 11:08:27 PM »
It is important to point out that microphone manufacturers moved away from nickel to gold sputtered diaphragms was that nickel diaphragms where/are much more fragile versus gold sputtered diaphragms.
It could also be cost.

Measurement microphones use metal (Titanium, Nickel and stainless steel).  Those are designed for harsh conditions.

By the way, other metal mics, stainless steel are Countryman B3, B6, and also Nevaton MCE400.  These are the best mics I've heard yet.

  Richard
Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

Sample recordings at: http://www.soundmann.com.

Offline John Willett

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Re: Gefell Nickel diaphragm mics (mv294, 295, capsules m70, m94)?
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2012, 06:01:40 AM »
As far as I know the M70 series has a PVC diaphragm - certainly the current UM70s uses the original Georg Neumann M7 capsule which is only made by Gefell.

The current Gefell microphones that have nickel diaphragms are the new M221 and the M290 series.

Neumann Berlin can't make nickel diaphragm capsules, so their metal diaphragm mics use titanium - mainly the TLM50 / M150 / KM133-A/D.  These are *not* designed for harsh environments as Neumann state they should not be used outdoors.

Any Gefell microphone repair really should be sent back to Gefell in Germany - they repair it to spec. and then put the mic. back into the anechoic chamber to check it all measures as originally.

Offline John Willett

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Re: Gefell Nickel diaphragm mics (mv294, 295, capsules m70, m94)?
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2012, 06:09:30 AM »
NOTHING sounds better than Schoeps ;D :P

LOL   ;D  ::)

There are quite a few mics that sound better than Schoeps - but it all depends on what you want to do.

I have often said that my top 5 are (alphabetically):- DPA, Gefell, Neumann, Sennheiser and Schoeps.

I rate these all pretty equal, but they all come from different directions when it comes to design.

It depends on whether you want colour or accuracy, what you are recording, the acoustic you are in, etc., etc.....

Most top studios will have a mixture of many of these in their collection and will choose the one best suited for what they are recording.

Schoeps the best - no ; but equal with the other four - yes.


Offline DSatz

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Re: Gefell Nickel diaphragm mics (mv294, 295, capsules m70, m94)?
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2012, 08:44:09 AM »
If I recall correctly the Neumann KM 53 used an aluminum diaphragm rather than nickel, and the M 50 went through four different capsule types one of which had a nickel membrane, but it was used only very briefly--Neumann changed over to Mylar in very short order as soon as it was available and had proven its worth.

The main reason for the change from nickel to Mylar was reliability. A nickel membrane can be ruined in an instant by exposure to wind, or if some bozo blows into the microphone to see if it's "on." When the diaphragm "bottoms out" against the backplate, the polarization voltage causes electrical arcing, and that tears little holes in the material. By contrast if that happens to a Mylar diaphragm, you just remove the polarization voltage, the membrane "unsticks," and normally no harm has been done apart from the interruption of service.

Where metal diaphragms arguably have a slight technical advantage is in the manufacture of pressure transducers (omnidirectional capsules), since those are more highly tensioned physically than pressure gradient transducers (the resonant frequency is at the upper end of the frequency range or a bit beyond it), and it is somewhat easier to bring a metal diaphragm up to a constant, consistent high tension than it is with polyester film. However, that hardly matters nowadays.

Mylar film is a patented product of DuPont. Gefell was "behind the Iron Curtain" as we used to say, and lacked both hard (Western) currency and any legal way (or government permission) to draw up sales agreements with Western sources of supply, so they were forced upon their own ingenuity and locally-sourced materials. The fact that they continued over the years to manufacture PVC and metal diaphragms reflects the mixture of choice and necessity in their very particular set of circumstances; it wasn't purism for purism's sake.

--best regards
« Last Edit: July 22, 2012, 04:49:08 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline yug du nord

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Re: Gefell Nickel diaphragm mics (mv294, 295, capsules m70, m94)?
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2012, 09:03:14 AM »
He's not very active on board these days, but check with dactylus regarding this subject......  he's done a lot of research, and has a nice collection of vintage Gefell.
.....got a blank space where my mind should be.....

 

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