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Author Topic: Recording Marching Band (formerly: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?)  (Read 15535 times)

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Offline voltronic

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Going to be doing a bunch of marching band recordings outside this fall, and I was wondering if anyone has ever used something like Scotch Guard on furry rat type windscreens and found it effective.  If so, are there any potential negative effects on the windscreen from doing this?  I'm not expecting actual waterproofing, just some protection from a light drizzle on damp October nights.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 06:09:37 PM by voltronic »
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Offline Boomoperator

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Re: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2014, 11:48:34 AM »
Found this on the Rycote website:

Q. Can I treat my Windjammer with water repellent to make it waterproof?
A.  The Windjammer material is already treated with a very fine layer of Scotchguard, but adding any further quantities can result in a crackling noise being heard. Water repellents may also seriously degrade the HF transparency of the backing, so we really would not recommend it.

I don't know if other brands use water repellent material.
Rycote & RemoteAudio also sell real rain covers, they're maybe even DIY-able..

http://player.vimeo.com/video/95980641
http://www.rycote.com/products/accessories-parts/duck-raincover/
http://www.remoteaudio.com/rainman/

Offline voltronic

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Re: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2014, 01:21:23 PM »
Thanks for those links.  The ones I have are Chris Church's Dead Rats, and I don't think there's any waterproofing on them.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2014, 06:18:33 PM »
I've sprayed the outside of foam screens and rats with silicone water repellant.  I find it mostly just makes it easier to shake water off them, rather than really keeping them from becoming wet.  I mostly did it just to make them slightly more hydrophobic so they'd have less tendency to wick wetness towards the microphones as easily.
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Offline voltronic

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Re: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2014, 09:27:54 PM »
I've sprayed the outside of foam screens and rats with silicone water repellant.  I find it mostly just makes it easier to shake water off them, rather than really keeping them from becoming wet.  I mostly did it just to make them slightly more hydrophobic so they'd have less tendency to wick wetness towards the microphones as easily.

That's exactly what I'm going for.  I was just worried that the spray would potentially gunk up the fabric in a way that's no longer acousically transparent.  Thanks!
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2014, 01:27:47 PM »
It didn't seem to gunk them up.  Took a few hours to dry and was then basically unnoticeable.  I did the 'hold it against my ear and listen' test before and after and heard no differences in high frequency attenuation.
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Offline voltronic

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Re: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2014, 02:29:14 PM »
Good to know.  I will spray away!
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Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2014, 06:10:32 PM »
I'd like to know where the sweet spot is for recording a marching band.  They start out on the goal line, march all over the football field, turn in every direction...

How do you plan to record them? 

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Re: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2014, 07:16:12 PM »
I'll let you know when I find out. :)  This season is the first I'll be bringing full size mics with me to marching band shows.  Most professional companies I see that record the final shows of the competition circuit for DVD production use an X/Y cardiod pair on a very tall stand at the 50, just in front of the stands.  Then they have 1 or 2 pairs of omni outriggers flanking the X/Y pair at around the 10 and 30 yard lines on either side.  I on the other hand have to do this more run-and-gun style with just one pair of mics, as I only have the capability to record 2 channels.

For home games, I have access to the press box roof since I'm on staff.  When I record, I am running video and audio together and that tends to be the best location for video to capture the whole band from a fixed camera angle (although quite distant for audio).  So if I'm up there, I'm going to experiment the first couple of times - one show I'll run the omnis clamped to the railing spaced as far as I can, probably about 15-20 feet.  The next time I'll try my cards in NOS (especially since my cards are really almost subcards).  In this situation I have plenty of time to set up carefully, and usually the only other person who might be up there is a video guy for the football team.

For away games and competitions, I'll be able to be either in the stands or on the field directly in front of the band, but definitely not above the press box.  If I'm on the field, that means I'm also on the schlepping crew for the pit equipment (podium, mallet instruments, synths, tympani, etc.).  In that situation, it's a very much run-and-gun situation and I'll need to have everything set up very compact on a monopod with a flash bracket and various attachments. 

If I'm in the stands as an audience member, I'll probably go with my cards in NOS clamped to bar if I'm right in front in the first row of stands.  Otherwise, I'll again be holding up the whole thing on my monopod / flash bracket setup.  I wouldn't use my omnis in that situation because I wouldn't have the space or time to spread them appropriately.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2014, 08:30:08 PM by voltronic »
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Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2014, 11:38:54 PM »
This brings back a lot of old HS Band memories.  Our press box was located behind the stands, and from the location of our press box, I'd be afraid of recording a bunch of the chatter from the audience running their mouths instead of listening to the band. 

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Re: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2014, 06:42:25 AM »
I've found that to be much more of a problem when recording in the stands.  When I've been on top of the press box, conversation is much quieter.  But then you sometimes hold on for dear life on very windy days. 
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Re: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2014, 07:30:26 AM »
I'd like to know where the sweet spot is for recording a marching band.  They start out on the goal line, march all over the football field, turn in every direction...

How do you plan to record them?

A pair of boundary mics on a large perspex panel each works wonderfully.  ;D

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Re: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2014, 07:42:39 AM »
How would you mount the boundary mics/panels and space them?  Would you hang each  panel off the top of the press box so many feet/meters apart?

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Re: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2014, 09:08:58 AM »
Concrete wall = perspex panel for purposes of boundary mounting.
Just harder to adjust the orientation of the wall.
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Re: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2014, 03:15:32 PM »
Please correct my limited understanding of boundary mics.  I got the impression that a boundary mic is essentially an omni mic placed on a flat surface (the boundary), but the mic usually goes in a housing to protect it from being stepped on as many boundary mics are floor mounted?

A while ago, I had drilled out some aluminum channel as a housing to try this out with some Rode NT45 omnis, but that's as far as I got with this. Seems like I had thought about suspending the mics with rubber bands inside the housing and then mounting the channel to a flat surface.   

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Re: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2014, 05:00:52 PM »
With miniature omnis, boundary mounted to a vertical wall, I simply gaff tape them in place directly to the surface, no stand or mounts required.  I do have some hard rubber boundary mounts made for the minature DPA omnis which work nicely and protect them from being crushed if accidentally stepped on when used on the floor.  The rubber mounts can similary be taped to a wall or even a person.

Rocks, your construction looks similar to this recommended Shopes accessory: http://www.schoeps.de/en/schoeps-recommends/turtle, which both suspends the microphone using elastic bands to eliminate solid-born handling noise (vibration transmitted through the floor) and offers protection from being trampled upon, although it looks like the capsule portion protrudes from the protective housing and is vulnerable.  That can be used for directional microphones as well as omnis, and that blue superCMIT shotgun sticking out right at foot level looks very vulnerable to me!

You want to get the capsule as close as possible to the surface for best results.  I've used non-minature omnis placed directly on neoprene rubber 'mouse-pads' laying on the floor with a sandbag (actually they were lead-shot bags) on top, which damped vibrations and also protected the microphones.  Obviously the capsule has to protrude enough not to be obscured by the sandbag, and the polar pattern to the rear is somewhat modified by the sandbag.

Volt, for boundary mounted recording of the marching band out on the field, you'd want a vertical boundary like a wall that faces the field. You might be able to setup two stands right up against a large wall facing the field, and arrange the mic stands so the microphone capsules are only a 1/4" or so from the wall surface, facing upwards or to either side.  With foam windscreens on the mics you could push them right up against the wall.  If both omnis are mounted on the same wall, then you'll want to space them as you would A-B omnis in free space.  If you had a triangular wall corner that points towards the center of the field (doubtful, but who knows), or are using two pieces of  perspex (plexiglass) or plywood or a couple folding tables or whatever as boundary surfaces which you can arrange however you like (anything hard, flat and large enough will work, the larger the better, 4' square or even more is best) you could arrange the microphones closer together with the two surfaces angled away from each other like directional microphones.  That will introduce more level difference and less time of arrival differences between channels. 

If you'd rather not hear them marching left and right in the resulting image, back and forth to opposite ends of the field, spacing them A-B more widely on one surface will get that open spaced omni bigness and ambience (appropriate for this I think) without such hard panned imaging effects.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 05:16:36 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2014, 05:21:23 PM »
I do think boundary mounted omnis may be a good choice for a marching band on a field if you are recording from the pressbox.  The technique seems to be very good at providing good clarity while minimizing ambient reverberance when recording from a far distance.
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Offline voltronic

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Re: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2014, 06:08:05 PM »
Thanks for these great ideas.  I actually tried to use my X-Qs once in a similar way to the floor setup you described as stage mics for a musical theater production.  They covered the stage great, but even with damping material on top and an acoustic barrier (music stand covered with foam) behind them, they picked up too much of the drum set and bass from the pit orchestra to use them during a show.  Instead I borrowed a set of AT PCC mics which were just the ticket.  At my wife's school they have a set of Crown PCCs which are VERY nice for this application. 

Unfortunately, I won't have permission, time, or space to do a boundary setup, and I won't even have the ability to bring my tall stand in to the stadium, let alone large plexiglass panels.  There isn't a wall to tape onto - the stands are made of aluminum on an open frame, which is quite resonant.  It's kind of a 30-second setup and breakdown deal, even at home games where I more or less have the run of the place.  The top of the press box is the only spot where I really do have the freedom to separate mics at any significant distance, and as I said I also need to think of good locations for fixed-angle video.

The good news though is that my Line Audio CM3s just came in the mail today, and I think they're going to work out well for when I have to be very compact.  I realize omnis may be preferable for a variety of reasons, but these are closer to a subcardiod pattern and don't perform quite like normal cardiods.  I did a quick wind test with them and found them to be no more sensitive to wind noise than my omnis (with the rats of course).

This Thursday is my first time I'm recording the band, as the "before season" first run-through for parents.  From what I understand I'll be on top of a tall scaffolding on the running track just off the football field.  So I'm going to climb up there and clamp my CM3s in a NOS arrangement in front of me, while I am also taking care of video.  I won't have access to the scaffolding after this one time, but that's where I'm asked to be this week.  From there on out, I'll be top of the press box or in the stands.  If it comes out well, I'll post a short sample if possible.

At this point, I think I should re-title the thread as we've really gone wholly over to marching band recording!
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Offline Gutbucket

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The opposite extreme (requiring lots of permission, money, a giant crane, crew, and the largest "Jecklin" baffle ever constructed)-



http://youtu.be/YMNi1b0g6K4
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Offline voltronic

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Good Lord - I've seen that IsoMike setup used for orchestral recordings before, but there's got to be over a hundred grand worth of equipment there (a large chunk of which may be Ray Kimber's expensive cables).  It wish it said which mikes were being used - I think the orchestral one I saw had Neumann TLM49s or something.  Great sound though, and I highly approve of the Shostakovich 10th excerpt in a Drum Corps show.  Way beyond the level of high school marching band I'm working with but really cool.

If we're talking DCI, my favorite corps has always been Carolina Crown.  They were FINALLY rewarded with a championship last year, earning a perfect brass score.  No other corps plays with this level of cohesion or musical expression.
I believe this is the official produced video, and I see 3 main mics at the 35, 50, and 35, with spots on the pit instruments and powered PA.  If you pause at around 1:10 it looks like the center may be a DIN array but I can't be sure.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKdB40k98jM



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Offline John Willett

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Re: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2014, 05:23:36 AM »
Please correct my limited understanding of boundary mics.  I got the impression that a boundary mic is essentially an omni mic placed on a flat surface (the boundary), but the mic usually goes in a housing to protect it from being stepped on as many boundary mics are floor mounted?

A while ago, I had drilled out some aluminum channel as a housing to try this out with some Rode NT45 omnis, but that's as far as I got with this. Seems like I had thought about suspending the mics with rubber bands inside the housing and then mounting the channel to a flat surface.

This already exists - The Maier Sound "Turtle" (which they patented)

They use the patented Rycote Lyre mounts to shockmount the mic.

Info and pictures here.



From below:-


« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 05:26:36 AM by John Willett »

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Re: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2014, 05:31:01 AM »
How would you mount the boundary mics/panels and space them?  Would you hang each  panel off the top of the press box so many feet/meters apart?

I actually got this from a broadcast sound engineer friend - the TV company had the contract to broadcast American Football and the previous company refused to say how they miked it.

So, he used a couple of boundary mics on perspex panels (the suze to get the bass end and perspex so they were see-through and were not too obvious to the crowd).

I think they were held by a person and only used while the marching band was on the pitch.

The results were far better than the previous broadcaster had realised by using many mics.

Unfortunately I cannot ask him for more details as he sadly died (very young) a couple of years back.

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Re: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2014, 06:15:34 AM »
Please correct my limited understanding of boundary mics.  I got the impression that a boundary mic is essentially an omni mic placed on a flat surface (the boundary), but the mic usually goes in a housing to protect it from being stepped on as many boundary mics are floor mounted?

A while ago, I had drilled out some aluminum channel as a housing to try this out with some Rode NT45 omnis, but that's as far as I got with this. Seems like I had thought about suspending the mics with rubber bands inside the housing and then mounting the channel to a flat surface.

This already exists - The Maier Sound "Turtle" (which they patented)

They use the patented Rycote Lyre mounts to shockmount the mic.

Info and pictures here.



From below:-


Gutbucket already beat you to the punch on the Turtle there, but either way I think the design leaves the part of the mic that needs the most protection exposed to danger!

The Crown's I mentioned earlier are these, and the capsule is fully protected under the metal housing.  Having used them as floor mics, I can tell you they are built to take abuse.
http://www.crownaudio.com/media/pdf/mics/101062.pdf
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Offline 2manyrocks

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 "I do have some hard rubber boundary mounts made for the minature DPA omnis which work nicely and protect them from being crushed if accidentally stepped on when used on the floor.  The rubber mounts can similary be taped to a wall or even a person."

Haven't seen these or even heard of them before.  Do you have a picture or a link to them, Gutbucket?


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DPA site-
http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/products.aspx?c=Item&category=128&item=24098

B&H-
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/354370-REG/DPA_Microphones_BLM6000_B_Boundary_Layer_Mount_Black.html

They work with any of the 406x series miniature omnis.  I've also posted close up photos of the slot and inserting the microphone somwhere here on the site years ago.  They also come in white.  I've been meaning to pickup some white ones for mounting on a white undershirt, for some applications they work better than the DPA concealers designed to reduce fabric noise when the microphones are mounted under clothing.

Good Lord - I've seen that IsoMike setup used for orchestral recordings before, but there's got to be over a hundred grand worth of equipment there (a large chunk of which may be Ray Kimber's expensive cables).  It wish it said which mikes were being used - I think the orchestral one I saw had Neumann TLM49s or something.  Great sound though, and I highly approve of the Shostakovich 10th excerpt in a Drum Corps show.  Way beyond the level of high school marching band I'm working with but really cool.

If we're talking DCI, my favorite corps has always been Carolina Crown.  They were FINALLY rewarded with a championship last year, earning a perfect brass score.  No other corps plays with this level of cohesion or musical expression.
I believe this is the official produced video, and I see 3 main mics at the 35, 50, and 35, with spots on the pit instruments and powered PA.  If you pause at around 1:10 it looks like the center may be a DIN array but I can't be sure.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKdB40k98jM

I highly approve of a Phillip Glass excerpt!

Honestly I think the IsoMike is a bit ridiculous, but in an interesting way at least.  I met RK and bought a few of his IsoMike recordings at a headphone conference back in '09 I think, just after I had heard about his giant baffle.  He was sitting by himself looking a bit bored, maning a Kimber table that had a playback setup with phones and a Korg DSD recrorder.  I was suprised to find him there and having built and used a few odd-shaped and sized (far smaller!) Jecklin-like baffles myself I hoped to talk a bit about audio engineering and recording with him to see what I could learn.   He just wanted to talk cables and sell recordings and was very disinterested and seemed sort of intimidated when I asked a few technical questions about the IsoMike.  I was rather disappointed and moved on.  shurg.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Yeah the closer the better for an even response across all frequencies down to the lower limit imposed by the area of the boundary itself.

The closer the diaphragm is to the boundary, the higher in frequency the effect manifests as boundary reinforcement rather than comb filtering coloration.  But in practical terms I'm not sure how much that really matters.  Tapers record all the time with microphones on low stands 6" to a couple feet above the surface of the stage around here without major issues lower in frequency.  Even a normal height mic-stand is within the boundary reinforcement zone at the lowest frequencies.   Most everyone here will be familiar with the subjective difference in level of the subwoofers compared to the rest of the spectrum at highly amplified venues when standing up verses sitting down, the low end can get deafening closer to the floor, especially when going from standing to sitting directly on the ground outside at a festival.  That’s lower frequency boundary effect.

When I started placing mics just a few inches above the stage for recording acoustic jazz to minimize my visual impact, I was initially concerned about combing from reflections bouncing off the highly reflective wooden floor but never had any audible issues. [edit- sometimes that inculded LD microphones oriented sideways in their shock mounts, mostly to get the desired spacing I wanted, but that orientaion also placed them lower, with the diaphrams about 2-1/2 inches above the floor surface.]
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 12:32:06 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Right, I mentioned LF partly because the boundary effect for that region extends so much farther from the surface and wanted to relate that to the personal listening experience of others reading this.  And sure, the HF combing will be especially audible with white noise.  I just haven't found it to be a big problem with mics on a stage, or mics relatively close to a wall boundary when recording music in my own experience.  I thought I would find it to be more significant but thankfully haven't found that to be the case.

Overheads on drums with mics between the cymbals and a low ceiling I can see as being more problematic, especially in a studio environment.  The ceiling fan over my couch at home really screws with the sound of an acoustic guitar with weird HF phasing, just by ear.  The blades are moving and shifting the combing around so it's especially audible and annoying.  But it's summertime and hot so I just put up with it when thumbing around for my own non-recorded entertainment.
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Offline Gutbucket

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More on the guitar and ceiling fan thing- when I first I took notice of that and realized what was going on, my next thought was that it was an excellent example of making something consciously noticeable which normally isn't, even if it is always quite easily measurable and most definitely effecting timbre. The effects of the room boundaries and reflections off nearby surfaces like the ceiling and fan blades unquestionably affect the sound of the guitar in the room.  But it normally only becomes obvious when moving to different rooms or listening to recordings made in different rooms.  Likewise the effects on timbre are of the same magnitude but aren’t consciously perceptible with the fan off, although they are very obvious and objectionable with the blades moving causing audible comb-shifting.  A static comb-filter may not be a problem even though it may be strong and easily measureable. It could be but it isn’t always, and I haven’t found it very problematic when I’ve placed mics near static boundaries recording live music performaces.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 01:43:07 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline 2manyrocks

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Thanks for the links. 

I found one of the prior TS discussions on this.  http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=157132.0

How much protection against footstep injury does the DPA boundary mount really provide? 

Offline Gutbucket

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I wouldn't want people actually walking on them!, but it will probably fully support a heavy person's accidental foot-step without damage unless they're wearing cleats.  The cable is exposed and more prone to damage.  The rubber is pretty dense and non-compressible.  I've used them on stage and I don't think I've actually had anyone step directly on them, and was able to route the thin gage cable along the groove between loose fitting floor boards secured with a strip of gaff tape over it.
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Offline John Willett

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Re: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?
« Reply #30 on: August 20, 2014, 04:58:50 AM »
Gutbucket already beat you to the punch on the Turtle there, but either way I think the design leaves the part of the mic that needs the most protection exposed to danger!

It depends on how you mount the mic. in the Turtle, as you can mount it so that the end it totally protected - but, you also need to minimise changes in the sound, so having the head slightly protruding does this.


Offline rocksuitcase

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years ago (early 1980's) my mentor (Mark Fitzgerald-Rosewood Sound-Syracuse NY) used to do Sound reinforcement for several large Irish music festivals (e.g. Caeili Music festival-Philly PA). We were his pupils at SU and did a lot of work for him from 1981-1984; one of the festivals asked him to provide "better" reinforcement for the dancers/cloggers. He decided to go with the Crown PZMs and we would place them near the running lights at the stage lip.we tried facing them with different geometrical locations including upside down. Of course, upside down wasn't the greatest, but we tried it all. We had several dancers step on the mics accidentally and accept for the transient bump from the PA, the mics survived. Spilling Guiness Beer inside one may have damaged it, however, it still worked after we dried it out.
For the marhcing band, I would tend toward these PZM's on plexi-glass, maybe 4-6 of them on stands with maybe some shotguns stationed at mid field angled toward the 25 yard lines. I have seen Teevee productions where the band is in the stands and they have mics (I assume cards) aimed at the band usually 2-4 mics spread out in front. At SU, they used to mic us (I was in the marching band-not doing PA) with SM57s across the front row with an extra one or two closer to the woodwinds when we were in the stands. But of course, this was just for reinforcement not for recording.
Sorry to ramble, thought I was adding $.02 but it may read more like $.10!
« Last Edit: August 25, 2014, 01:07:06 PM by rocksuitcase »
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Offline 2manyrocks

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Reading more about boundary mics elsewhere, I came across a caution that plexiglas sheets can go sailing in the wind outdoors....

From what I read, the reason for using plexiglas in the first place was because they wanted something less visibly intrusive.  That is, people could see through the plexiglas and it didn't stand out so much but still offered a solid plane on which to mount a microphone. 


Offline John Willett

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Reading more about boundary mics elsewhere, I came across a caution that plexiglas sheets can go sailing in the wind outdoors....

That's why they were firmly held.


From what I read, the reason for using plexiglas in the first place was because they wanted something less visibly intrusive.  That is, people could see through the plexiglas and it didn't stand out so much but still offered a solid plane on which to mount a microphone.

Yes

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?
« Reply #34 on: August 21, 2014, 01:17:59 PM »
One more resource on boundary mounting-

https://pantherfile.uwm.edu/type/www/audio-reports/BoundaryMicExperiments/BoundaryMicsStudy/BoundaryMicsStudy.htm
Here's a link to a page with lots of bundary-mounting info, including most of the old authoritive Crown document, which does a good job describing what's going on including the combfiltering effect Jon mentions and describes some interesting multi-planar boundarires.  The full Crown PDF is linked there, which as I recall also includes the mathematical formulas for calculating the effect of specific boundary-areas and such.  The page linked here primarily deals with nature recording, and shows lots of small DIY stereo baffles similar to the Crown SASS below the Crown document info.  Those things will only leverage the boundary-effect and act  directionally at high frequencies due to the small area of their boundaries.
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Offline voltronic

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Here's a couple brief clips from the recording I just made of the band.  I was on top of a ~25ft scaffolding, right above the drum major and almost directly in front of the pit instruments.  Even at that height, I chose to point the mics almost straight out parallel to the ground, rather than angled down as I would normally do when recording from high up.  If I had angled down, the pit would have been even hotter in the recording than it was.  These mics are really subcards though despite what the manufacturer says, so I felt it was a good compromise (check the polar response here: http://www.lineaudio.se/CM3.html).  As I said before, I won't be able to have this placement ever again this season, but it was the only option as they were playing on a practice field and not in a stadium.  This was my first run with the CM3s and the Tinybox, and was the first public run of the show for the band.

Line Audio CM3 (NOS) > Tinybox (+28dB) > M10 (lv 4)

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/pqzc6tgfd5gpigv/AAAcODTLiJRW0Riyj2xbLuHwa

Oh, and back to the original purpose of this thread - I was using the Church Dead Rats on the CM3s, but they barely fit without room for the foam screens underneath.  It was threatening rain and was quite breezy so they did their job well I think.  I just ordered a pair of TBrown's Muppets so I can have a set that are appropriately sized for these mics and will allow me to use the foam screens as well.
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Offline 2manyrocks

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Do you happen to have any pictures you could post?  I'm curious about the position of the band relative to the mics and also curious about the size of each section in the band.  In the first clip, the brass seemed weaker than the percussion which I'm assuming was due to the percussion being closer to the mics? 

Offline voltronic

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Sorry, no pictures and I'm already pushing what I feel comfortable with posting.  This is a school, remember.  I'm looking at the video and can tell you that in the first clip the winds and brass are in a straight across "company front" with the saxes left; flutes and clarinets center, and brass to the far right.  They move a bit after that but the L-R distribution stays generally the same during that clip.  The drum line is to the left behind the saxes.  The drumheads are pretty much aimed right at the mic position, wheras the horn facing is more or less straight ahead - not towards the 50 where I was. 
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Offline JimmieC

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cool
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Offline bombdiggity

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Large ensembles are always hard to record.  Add outdoors and moving and whatever other variables and it seems fortunate to end up with any good representation. 

IMO internal balance is mostly a function of the players (in any band really, though especially of this size) and they're not hearing it the same way the audience does.  Regardless it usually takes a lot of experience for players to get that aspect nailed down (some never do!).  Individual micing is not a panacea even with a fixed seated group, so to a large extent you get what you get bounded by some limited range of technical choices you may be able to make on the margins. 

This is pretty impressive.  The band is good too.  Interesting to hear those mics in use in a very different setting. 
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Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline voltronic

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Thanks bomb.  The kids are working really hard and performing in that setting is very difficult.  And it's worse if you have reverb from stands in a stadium.  You have to completely trust the drum major and ignore what you're hearing from a timing standpoint otherwise it's a hot mess rhythmically.

As far as a different setting, there's a chamber choir I sing with and I've offered to record our performances in October.  Last time I recorded us it was with CA14s so I'm looking forward to trying out the new rig for comparison.  I really love these mics so far, and I think it's a shame they aren't more popular outside of Europe.
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Offline rocksuitcase

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I like the sound of these clips. I would agree that aiming parrallel to the ground is "better" than aiming downward toweard the band.
good job and thanks for sharing the clips so we can understand what you are doing mic-wise.
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Offline 2manyrocks

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I recorded a large choir back in May with a pair of CM3s (NOS, on top of 10' light stand on top of about a 2' platform) , and it seemed to me that they were very pleasant and smoother sounding than whatever it was the church used for their own recording.  I ended up using their video and my audio just because I liked the CM3 audio better. 

I suspect I may have run into a negative aspect of gain from boundary mic recording by accident.  I set my camcorder down on a sill in an about a 3x6 opening in the back wall of the church to record a joint elementary/teen choir last week when I had to run out to another meeting.  When I first watched the video later, I thought, wow, those kids are really singing, and then I started hearing slight distortion in the recording.  Puzzling since the camcorder was set on automatic gain.  The kids weren't even mic'd.  hmmm, I wonder if that opening acted like a funnel and the sill acted like a boundary which was too much for the internal mic on the camcorder? 

Offline voltronic

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I recorded a large choir back in May with a pair of CM3s (NOS, on top of 10' light stand on top of about a 2' platform) , and it seemed to me that they were very pleasant and smoother sounding than whatever it was the church used for their own recording.  I ended up using their video and my audio just because I liked the CM3 audio better. 

I suspect I may have run into a negative aspect of gain from boundary mic recording by accident.  I set my camcorder down on a sill in an about a 3x6 opening in the back wall of the church to record a joint elementary/teen choir last week when I had to run out to another meeting.  When I first watched the video later, I thought, wow, those kids are really singing, and then I started hearing slight distortion in the recording.  Puzzling since the camcorder was set on automatic gain.  The kids weren't even mic'd.  hmmm, I wonder if that opening acted like a funnel and the sill acted like a boundary which was too much for the internal mic on the camcorder?

So now that's at least one other person on TS that has these!  Time for a Team Line Audio thread I guess. 

That's exactly how I intend to use them myself (same height stand, same spacing).  When using regular cardiods for choir, I would always go with DIN or ORTF if in a nice acoustic, but the CM3s seem to need a bit more spacing.  I've spoken to people who have gotten good results with distances as small as 24cm for close-up recording.  I won't get the chance to do large choirs until January, but will have a few small choir recordings in the next few months.

Regarding your camcorder, who knows what kind of wacko stuff the auto gain may be doing.  My camera very obviously jacks the gain way up when it senses the average noise level dropping for any significant period.  For the marching band show I just recorded, that meant anytime the band had a rest of more than a second or so, up the gain went and then unfortunately the wind and background noise along with it.  Basically my camera audio is unusable for anything but dialogue, indoors, at steady level and close distance.  And half the time that sounds like crap.  This is a point-and-shoot camera though; not a dedicated camcorder.

Does your camcorder have a shotgun or other type of directional mic?  Because then you could have been having proximity effect issues with it picking up the reflections off of close boundaries.  Even if that wasn't happening, at the distance that the mic probably was from said boundaries, you could have been getting all kinds of comb filtering / phase cancellation.  As described by Jon and Gutbucket earlier, a real boundary application means the capsule is very close to the boundary to both maximize the boundary effect and also avoid the comb filtering you get at intermediate distances.  Combine that with auto gain and things could get pretty dicey. 

Here's a very simplistic illustration:
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Offline 2manyrocks

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It's a Canon Hf M500 camcorder, and the microphones are on the bottom of the face of the camera under the lens.  No idea what kind of internal mics they are.  I don't think I'll be putting the camera on a flat surface and recording like that again if I can avoid it.

I'd be very interested to hear some comparison samples of CM3 recordings of the marching band from  wherever you record from the next time. 


Offline Gutbucket

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I like what I've heard from those CM3s.  Band sounds good and well balanced with nice directionality in your sample.  I would like to hear a wide A-B spacing in comparison, which would convey the big openess of the event and better anchor the space I suspect (I get image shift left/right when I shift in my seat) but that would likely provide less sharp directional imaging unless more than two microphones were used.  That's a completely subjective preference however. This is more than acceptable I think and well done.  Nice work.
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Offline voltronic

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I like what I've heard from those CM3s.  Band sounds good and well balanced with nice directionality in your sample.  I would like to hear a wide A-B spacing in comparison, which would convey the big openess of the event and better anchor the space I suspect (I get image shift left/right when I shift in my seat) but that would likely provide less sharp directional imaging unless more than two microphones were used.  That's a completely subjective preference however. This is more than acceptable I think and well done.  Nice work.

Thanks for the comments.  I just made a 36" split omni bar that I might try with them when I will be on top of the press box.  At that large a distance that might actually work - the Sengpiel visualization tool says that would make a SRA of about 45 degrees. 

I think the real test for these will be inside in a nice space with good acoustics, and as I said I should have one or two choir recordings in nice churches in October.  Regarding imaging, I don't think this recording sounds that great through headphones, but through my studio monitors (up on stands and measured for proper angles) I like what I hear.
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Offline 2manyrocks

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I look at this as somewhat of a wonder that here we have a group of students spread out playing music on a football field and a recording was made of them from a 25 foot scaffold, and yet they sound pretty good.   It's not like they are playing in an environment where the temperature, humidity, and acoustics are all constants, nor is it so easy for them to hear each other as they play.   

If they get to hear the recording, I wonder what balance adjustments they will make as the season goes on.  Could be the brass players will play with more confidence and louder or maybe the percussion will cut back just a bit.  Then as the weather gets colder, all sorts of things start happening from the viewpoint of playing instruments outdoors and what happens from that. 



 

Offline voltronic

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I look at this as somewhat of a wonder that here we have a group of students spread out playing music on a football field and a recording was made of them from a 25 foot scaffold, and yet they sound pretty good.   It's not like they are playing in an environment where the temperature, humidity, and acoustics are all constants, nor is it so easy for them to hear each other as they play.   
You should see the competitions where you have heavy rain and high winds, that's when when it really gets fun.  Not to mention what November temperatures do to the tuning of woodwinds, brass, and percussion.

If they get to hear the recording, I wonder what balance adjustments they will make as the season goes on.  Could be the brass players will play with more confidence and louder or maybe the percussion will cut back just a bit.  Then as the weather gets colder, all sorts of things start happening from the viewpoint of playing instruments outdoors and what happens from that. 
That's actually the whole purpose of this - every show gets recorded (not necessarily by me) and posted on a private video share where they can self assess or where the instructors can identify areas that need work.  Lather, rinse, repeat.  My goal is to give them higher quality audio to improve that process.  I do audio self-assessment with my choir students all the time, and it's interesting to hear what they pick out in their performances.   
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Offline Gutbucket

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What usually sounds somewhat odd to me in most 'marching band on a field' recordings (not that I hear that many of them) is the timbre and sonic space around the percussion elements.  The percussion's restricted frequency range, dynamics and ambience with a very quickly tapering reverberant tail usually translates to me as an unusual 'dry and bottled' sense of excess distance.   Melodic tone instruments seem less effected by distance in those ways to me, although they have the same thing going on acoustically.  It's mostly that percussion aspect that I suspect may benefit from the diffuse field decorellation of widely spaced omnis.  I think it would sort of better place all the sounds and especially the percussion in a more appropriate sounding 'space', even if that space is somewhat of an artificial 'cheat' produced by the spaced omnis.  It may sound more natural and pleasing for the average listener even though it may well be less faithful to what one would actually hear live, standing there.

But as you just mention, the intended purpose of the recordings may be different and the more important factor in this situation.  The audience for these recordings isn’t average listeners listening for enjoyment, but expert listeners listening critically to their own performance and overall sound.  If these recordings are primarily intended as tools used by the students to asses and modify their performance, based on what it sounds like to listeners in the stands watching them perform on the field, then a technique that conveys that experience as authentically as possible is more appropriate than a technique that may produce a generally more pleasing recording for speaker playback.

With that in mind, a jecklin disk, HRTF head recording or even a binaural setup might be appropriate if the students are mostly listening on headphones.
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Offline voltronic

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What usually sounds somewhat odd to me in most 'marching band on a field' recordings (not that I hear that many of them) is the timbre and sonic space around the percussion elements.  The percussion's restricted frequency range, dynamics and ambience with a very quickly tapering reverberant tail usually translates to me as an unusual 'dry and bottled' sense of excess distance.   Melodic tone instruments seem less effected by distance in those ways to me, although they have the same thing going on acoustically.  It's mostly that percussion aspect that I suspect may benefit from the diffuse field decorellation of widely spaced omnis.  I think it would sort of better place all the sounds and especially the percussion in a more appropriate sounding 'space', even if that space is somewhat of an artificial 'cheat' produced by the spaced omnis.  It may sound more natural and pleasing for the average listener even though it may well be less faithful to what one would actually hear live, standing there.

But as you just mention, the intended purpose of the recordings may be different and the more important factor in this situation.  The audience for these recordings isn’t average listeners listening for enjoyment, but expert listeners listening critically to their own performance and overall sound.  If these recordings are primarily intended as tools used by the students to asses and modify their performance, based on what it sounds like to listeners in the stands watching them perform on the field, then a technique that conveys that experience as authentically as possible is more appropriate than a technique that may produce a generally more pleasing recording for speaker playback.

With that in mind, a jecklin disk, HRTF head recording or even a binaural setup might be appropriate if the students are mostly listening on headphones.

In this particular instance, they weren't in a stadium, but were on a wide-open grass practice lawn way in front of the school, so there was absolutely nothing reflective for the percussion to couple with.  That's not normal for this type of group, and may be part of the reason my recording sounds much drier on those instruments than you would expect.  In a stadium, that will be a different story.  Even the turf field makes a difference.  While it's not really reflective, it is much less absorptive than grass.  And you're right that the other instruments have the advantage in this situation.  This band also doesn't have a very big drumline compared to the other sections. 

Binaural or a dummy head sounds interesting, but I think it's more than I can haul around.  Again, it's often a time pressure situation.  I happened to have plenty of time to set up for this performance, but I had to scramble at the end as a thunderstorm was coming in and I was standing on top of a tall scaffolding!  When used at the school, they are listening on a traditional stereo in the band room so I don't want these to only be headphone-balanced.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Thanks for this interesting discussion on an unusual recording topic.
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Offline Karl

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Re: Recording Marching Band (formerly: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?)
« Reply #52 on: September 18, 2014, 04:17:30 PM »
Hey Voltronic, I have been recording marching bands for what seems like forever and thought I would share what I've learned (and btw have learned some great stuff from reading this thread!). I have gone through a lot of mic/recorder combinations, and have been using the AT853 mics for awhile and they are great for the price, and pick up a pretty good spectrum. Sometimes I have to go in through post-processing and cut a bit of bass, but not a big deal.

Think about this...marching bands are designed to be enjoyed primarily from the 50 yard line. That doesn't mean anything else is a bad seat, but someone sitting on the 50 yard line will get the full picture, both audio and visual wise. What does that mean? A pair of stereo mics on the 50 yard line is plenty. There is no real need to add any mics on wider yard lines. DCI (a professional marching band competition circuit for lack of better explanation, which is drum and bugle corps) has screwed up their audio recordings too many times to count. They get screwed up drumline wise (I'm a drumline guy, I pay a lot of attention to this!). When you have a stereo pair on the 50, then add another stereo pair 15 yards out, then you are dealing with sound phase between the microphones. The sound phase REALLY screws up snare and quad sounds, makes them sound like they are playing out of time (or playing dirty!).

So when you watch a marching band, if you want the best listening experience, where do you sit? If you ask 99% of the band people out there, they will say sitting on the 50 yard line in the first couple rows. And I agree. So, your mics should be placed there, or as close to there as possible. Ideally, right in front of the first row is perfect. How high should the mics be? Again, think about what the shows are designed for. The shows are usually designed for the judges in the pressbox, so the horn angles point their sound to the press box. The balance of the brass, woodwinds, drumline and pit are all keyed into making it sound good in the pressbox. So, the mics should be high enough to be almost in the line of sight of the judges as they are looking down from the press box to the field.

I believe cardioid patterns are best, as they are wide enough to get the full ensemble sound, but they reject crowd noise from behind the mics. Hypers can be bad, because they will get whatever instrument they are pointing at the loudest. I have heard XY patterns, I don't think they sound good for this application. 90 degree mic angle with about 19cm spacing sounds good.

Voltronic, I know that sometimes you don't have control over where you set up. If you have to stand on the track, you can still get a decent recording. If you get to go in the stands, front row on the 50 yard line is best.  I have a couple samples that I will post when I get a chance. My recording gear all fits in a backpack, I hit record well before it's performance time, and so when the show is ready to go, I pull the mics out of the bag, and just hold them for 10 minutes.

Hope all of this helps!
My portable rig:

AT853>Tascam DR100 mkii

Offline voltronic

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Re: Recording Marching Band (formerly: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?)
« Reply #53 on: September 18, 2014, 06:25:38 PM »
^ Hey Karl, thanks for sharing your experience.  Yes, I'd be very interested to hear your samples.  I try to go to DCI shows whenever they come around here, and you're right that their recordings don't sound as good as the real thing.  Maybe they're going for overall field coverage rather than a "one person at the event" sound which is more the MO of people on this forum I suppose. 

Regarding percussion and phase problems, I see what you mean.  It's often a bad enough problem live where you get bad slap-back echo from empty visitor's stands behind the drumline.

I would also be very interested in your backpack rig. That's what I haul everything in also, but it takes me a good 5 minutes to take everything out and set it up.  What would be really great is to have my mics mounted on a bar, and then drop the extension of the monopod down and go.  This past week at competition I was on pit schlepping crew and didn't bring my recording gear because I knew I'd have no time to set up.  Recorded with my cell phone right behind the drum major - totally unusable.  If I could have something I could start recording when we're at the gate, and then pop open after moving equipment, that be fantastic.  I wouldn't be able to get to the 50 because judges and trophy tables are often there for our competitions, so it would be more like the 40.
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Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Recording Marching Band (formerly: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?)
« Reply #54 on: September 18, 2014, 11:54:53 PM »
^ I will note that I developed a "schlep" rig for running around the city on public transit.  I can bring my Schoeps and my tiny mics plus a wide range of clamps, cables and accessories and a stand all in a small backpack with lots of room to spare.  It also allows me to bring and set up a stand in places that don't allow mic stands of the traditional sort in. 

The key piece in terms of portability is a collapsible photographic tripod.  It does not go up to full mic stand height but is certainly tall enough in any environment other than standing room.  It is just right for going stage lip in front of tables without blocking sight lines, which may let you get yours on the 50 (you can make it any height between about 20 inches and 60). 

This is the most compact version:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/917558-REG/sirui_bsrt005xk_t_005x_aluminum_tripod_black.html

◾54.5" Maximum Height
◾Folds Down to 11.8"
◾8.8 lb Load Capacity
◾Weighs Just 2.2 lb
◾Legs Fold 180° for Extra Compactness
◾Arca-Style Quick-Release Plate

You need a thread adapter to go from the photo thread on the plate to a mic bar diameter thread. 

Very portable and very quick set up.  If you have your mics and bar pre-mounted to the plate you can just drop it in.  I don't premount anything and can still get it all rolling in 2 minutes or so. 
Gear:
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Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
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Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Recording Marching Band (formerly: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?)
« Reply #55 on: September 18, 2014, 11:57:29 PM »
For me, this is one of the most well thought out quick deploy rigs I've ever seen:  http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=96009.msg1713305#msg1713305

I'd like to figure out a quick deploy rig for cm3s. 


Offline voltronic

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Re: Recording Marching Band (formerly: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?)
« Reply #56 on: September 19, 2014, 07:20:19 PM »
^ I will note that I developed a "schlep" rig for running around the city on public transit.  I can bring my Schoeps and my tiny mics plus a wide range of clamps, cables and accessories and a stand all in a small backpack with lots of room to spare.  It also allows me to bring and set up a stand in places that don't allow mic stands of the traditional sort in. 

The key piece in terms of portability is a collapsible photographic tripod.  It does not go up to full mic stand height but is certainly tall enough in any environment other than standing room.  It is just right for going stage lip in front of tables without blocking sight lines, which may let you get yours on the 50 (you can make it any height between about 20 inches and 60). 

This is the most compact version:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/917558-REG/sirui_bsrt005xk_t_005x_aluminum_tripod_black.html

◾54.5" Maximum Height
◾Folds Down to 11.8"
◾8.8 lb Load Capacity
◾Weighs Just 2.2 lb
◾Legs Fold 180° for Extra Compactness
◾Arca-Style Quick-Release Plate

You need a thread adapter to go from the photo thread on the plate to a mic bar diameter thread. 

Very portable and very quick set up.  If you have your mics and bar pre-mounted to the plate you can just drop it in.  I don't premount anything and can still get it all rolling in 2 minutes or so.

That's a great idea.  I have a cheap but very good monopod that goes about 65" that I'm thinking of using.  If I can attach some type of small case or bag to the top of the monopod / tripod / etc. to hold the tinybox and my M10, the entire recording setup will be contained in a very small space.  I have a couple small camera cases and a little neoprene one with a belt loop that can be attached to the monopod handle.  Then it's just a matter of cable management.
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Offline voltronic

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Re: Recording Marching Band (formerly: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?)
« Reply #57 on: September 19, 2014, 07:24:12 PM »
For me, this is one of the most well thought out quick deploy rigs I've ever seen:  http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=96009.msg1713305#msg1713305

I'd like to figure out a quick deploy rig for cm3s.

Wow, he really put a lot of effort into that.  Very, very slick!  On the next page is a later revision of it also.  I really like that little stand, too.
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Offline Karl

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Re: Recording Marching Band (formerly: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?)
« Reply #58 on: September 20, 2014, 10:03:51 AM »
Voltronic, here is a link to a couple samples:

Drum corps: https://www.dropbox.com/s/b6tfbzibq6yoi3i/drum%20corps%20sample.flac?dl=0

Marching band: https://www.dropbox.com/s/sz54xomt76wjvy7/marching%20band%20sample.flac?dl=0

A little later I will post a couple pictures of my backpack rig!
My portable rig:

AT853>Tascam DR100 mkii

Offline voltronic

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Re: Recording Marching Band (formerly: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?)
« Reply #59 on: September 20, 2014, 01:27:31 PM »
Voltronic, here is a link to a couple samples:

Drum corps: https://www.dropbox.com/s/b6tfbzibq6yoi3i/drum%20corps%20sample.flac?dl=0

Marching band: https://www.dropbox.com/s/sz54xomt76wjvy7/marching%20band%20sample.flac?dl=0

A little later I will post a couple pictures of my backpack rig!

Wow, really great recordings, and yes the percussion does sound much more realistic than what I've heard on the official DCI recordings.  Am I correct that different mics were used for these two recordings?  The marching band one sounds like cards, but the drum corps sample sounds like omnis to me.  In any case, the balance of the drum corps one is fantastic - most of the ones I hear are much too brass-heavy.  Can't wait to see what you're using.
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Offline Karl

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Re: Recording Marching Band (formerly: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?)
« Reply #60 on: September 20, 2014, 07:55:42 PM »
These are the same Audio Technica AT853 mics for both recording, both using the cardioid element. Though, the drum corps sample was using phantom power, and the marching band sample was using battery box power into a minidisc. I personally have noticed more difference with the powering than whether I was recording to minidisc or a wav recorder.
My portable rig:

AT853>Tascam DR100 mkii

Offline Karl

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Re: Recording Marching Band (formerly: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?)
« Reply #61 on: September 20, 2014, 08:01:13 PM »
Here are some pictures of my "back pack" rig.

Like I said earlier, I hit record way earlier at a convenient time, and when it's "go" time I can pull these out and I'm already going.

If I was to start all over, I would still use these mics, but I would give myself more options. I would still retain the ability to easily pull these out and hold them with one hand. I would also like to be able to mount them to a mic stand. My current "mic stand" is a music stand when I need it, but that doesn't allow me to mount them high if I need to. I would also like to have a way to use these for stealth situations, but I would sacrifice that piece if need be.
My portable rig:

AT853>Tascam DR100 mkii

Offline Karl

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Re: Recording Marching Band (formerly: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?)
« Reply #62 on: September 20, 2014, 08:16:31 PM »
BTW the mics are on a gooseneck, so I can spread them wider than what you see in the picture.
My portable rig:

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Offline voltronic

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Re: Recording Marching Band (formerly: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?)
« Reply #63 on: September 20, 2014, 09:12:49 PM »
I was expecting something much more expensive than AT853s!  Were both of those recordings at field level, or was either up on a stand?
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Offline Karl

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Re: Recording Marching Band (formerly: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?)
« Reply #64 on: September 20, 2014, 09:52:56 PM »
I was holding them in my hand! I was sitting in the stands, close to the front both times. I was sitting in places where there weren't people blocking the sound.
My portable rig:

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Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Recording Marching Band (formerly: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?)
« Reply #65 on: September 21, 2014, 04:42:37 PM »
My 853s stay in one of these cpvc gizmos in the middle of a mic shock mount.  No fiddling with angles necessary to set up.  Real time saver.  http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=155537.msg1965899#msg1965899

Instead of holding the 853's in my hand, I'd at least use a camera monopod. 

I'm guessing CM3s could be mounted similarly?  Just larger diameter cpvc pipe. 

Offline voltronic

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Re: Recording Marching Band (formerly: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?)
« Reply #66 on: September 21, 2014, 05:34:06 PM »
My 853s stay in one of these cpvc gizmos in the middle of a mic shock mount.  No fiddling with angles necessary to set up.  Real time saver.  http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=155537.msg1965899#msg1965899

Instead of holding the 853's in my hand, I'd at least use a camera monopod. 

I'm guessing CM3s could be mounted similarly?  Just larger diameter cpvc pipe.

I tried the PVC-only route but it wasn't working for these mics.  I came up with another solution for a fixed-distance bar:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=169881.0
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- Gustav Mahler

Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Recording Marching Band (formerly: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?)
« Reply #67 on: September 21, 2014, 09:06:36 PM »
You mentioned the PVC only route wasn't working--I take it you mean you didn't have confidence in its weight carrying ability without the 3/8 rod inside it?

Now if someone has an idea for a quick connect between the mic mount and the mic stand? 


Offline voltronic

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Re: Recording Marching Band (formerly: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?)
« Reply #68 on: September 21, 2014, 09:33:40 PM »
You mentioned the PVC only route wasn't working--I take it you mean you didn't have confidence in its weight carrying ability without the 3/8 rod inside it?

Now if someone has an idea for a quick connect between the mic mount and the mic stand?

No, I just didn't have the necessary dremel or saw to modify the angled pieces.

As for a quick release for a stand, I suppose one could use a camera plate but I can't imagine it being much quicker than unscrewing right from the monopod.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Recording Marching Band (formerly: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?)
« Reply #69 on: September 23, 2014, 10:31:09 AM »
For me, this is one of the most well thought out quick deploy rigs I've ever seen:  http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=96009.msg1713305#msg1713305

I'd like to figure out a quick deploy rig for cm3s.

Wow, he really put a lot of effort into that.  Very, very slick!  On the next page is a later revision of it also.  I really like that little stand, too.

Thanks guys.  That's using a Manfrotto 001B lightstand, commonly used around TS as a small compact stand.  The current replacement for it is the 5001B, which appears identical from what I can tell.  Collapses to about 20" long or so.  The specs say it goes up to about 6', but that's with the legs flat out on the ground.  With them deployed in the typical pyramid configuration it maxes out at more like 7' tall.  It will go up to 7-1/2' tall but becomes unstable unless clamped , bungee'd or otherwise secured to something.

The Manfrotto MS0490A Nanopole looks interesting.  Same size and height, but with an adjustable "lazy leg" for setting it plumb on sloped ground and the entire leg assembly may be detatched for use as a telescoping mono-pod.

On the current version of that rig I've eliminated the sphere attachments on the four omnis, extended the Left/Right omni spread to 6' instead of 3' and replaced the center forward and rear facing omnis with DPA miniature hypercards (4098H).  Changing to the new configuration I used some borrowed AT cardioids (853, 933) a few times in the center forward/rear facing positions before going with the DPA4098H, which also worked nicely.
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Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Recording Marching Band (formerly: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?)
« Reply #70 on: September 23, 2014, 11:11:53 AM »

That's a great idea.  I have a cheap but very good monopod that goes about 65" that I'm thinking of using.  If I can attach some type of small case or bag to the top of the monopod / tripod / etc. to hold the tinybox and my M10, the entire recording setup will be contained in a very small space.  I have a couple small camera cases and a little neoprene one with a belt loop that can be attached to the monopod handle.  Then it's just a matter of cable management.


My concern with monopod (as I interpret that concept) is that you'd have to hold it up? 

With a tripod you can set it quickly whenever the opportunity is there and leave it while you do whatever other obligations you have.  You can also place it in more favorable positions than ones where you'd have to stand next to or behind it.  A small pouch draped underneath on a strap (within the legs) keeps the gear protected.  The cables run down into that (I'm assuming thin gauge wires, though even a full mic cable can work if it is short and/or coiled within the diameter at the base). 

I've found that as long as you're not in a drunken crowd of wookies (in the dark) people respect and are attentive to a stand.  Standing room/pushing room in a crowd is not what you're trying to do of course.  The camera tripod format is also better because it is more obvious about the space it is staking out.  A traditional mic stand has legs that spread wider and very low to the grand so the outer dimensions of the real estate it occupies are not very obvious and those are easier to get accidentally entangled in. 

Not that I'd leave this unattended in many situations but it can readily be left alone stage lip in a normal sort of seated crowd.  And I'm not standing in front of everyone at the stage or trying to occupy a chair in the aisle/pit/camera well in front of the stage. 

I probably have a picture somewhere of how this normally runs.  I don't have to be too worried about cables and other pieces at most things I record so those are often on the stage lip behind the monitors.  I'll take some at the next show. 


As to the camera release plate vs. regular screw on bar I think there's not a huge amount of difference in assembly time if you're not prewired/connected.  If you are prewired and connected then turning all that stuff around and around trying to screw the bar onto the stand really doesn't work. 


BTW Gut's setup pictured there is awesome.  Given the complexity I'd think you'd have to have something like that pre-rigged so that's a really nice deal.  I'm not McGyver so work with off the shelf stuff  ;) 
Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Recording Marching Band (formerly: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?)
« Reply #71 on: September 23, 2014, 12:32:32 PM »
The camera tripod format is also better because it is more obvious about the space it is staking out.  A traditional mic stand has legs that spread wider and very low to the grand so the outer dimensions of the real estate it occupies are not very obvious and those are easier to get accidentally entangled in.

A light stand (designed for holding lights for photography) is the most common type of stand used for recording around here.  It is basically much more like a camera tripod than a traditional microphone stand, but has fixed instead of telescoping legs, making it much simpler and faster to setup, though it provides less leveling adjustments.  Instead of a hand-cranked top tube for fine adjustment of height, they have simple multi-sectioned telescopic vertical tube section which clamp in place. They are available from about 12" to up to to 25'+ tall. Similarly to a camera tripod, the diameter of the footprint can be adjusted as to be wider for for more stability or narrower for a smaller and more compact footprint, at the risk of being less stable. 

Quote
If you are prewired and connected then turning all that stuff around and around trying to screw the bar onto the stand really doesn't work.

When you find yourself in this situation, try holding the unweildy microphone assembly in-place and spinning the camera tripod or light-stand instead.
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Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Recording Marching Band (formerly: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?)
« Reply #72 on: September 23, 2014, 01:00:24 PM »
The camera tripod format is also better because it is more obvious about the space it is staking out.  A traditional mic stand has legs that spread wider and very low to the grand so the outer dimensions of the real estate it occupies are not very obvious and those are easier to get accidentally entangled in.

A light stand (designed for holding lights for photography) is the most common type of stand used for recording around here.  It is basically much more like a camera tripod than a traditional microphone stand, but has fixed instead of telescoping legs, making it much simpler and faster to setup, though it provides less leveling adjustments.  Instead of a hand-cranked top tube for fine adjustment of height, they have simple multi-sectioned telescopic vertical tube section which clamp in place. They are available from about 12" to up to to 25'+ tall. Similarly to a camera tripod, the diameter of the footprint can be adjusted as to be wider for for more stability or narrower for a smaller and more compact footprint, at the risk of being less stable. 

Quote
If you are prewired and connected then turning all that stuff around and around trying to screw the bar onto the stand really doesn't work.

When you find yourself in this situation, try holding the unweildy microphone assembly in-place and spinning the camera tripod or light-stand instead.

Yeah.  If you're going tall a trad mic stand isn't cutting it (and I'm showing how foreign my experience is to the OTS experience that many around here came up in). 

I like the telescoping legs on the one I mention since that is what enables it to fold down into something small enough to toss in the backpack (I've even done old school smuggling to carry it through strict pat-down area security to use more for it's intended purpose that time - video).  They also put all the tighteners together (and small) so you can with one hand loosen all of them at once to drop the legs to full extension then tighten them up individually.  Tightening all the leg sections is the slowest part, though not particularly so, but that is precisely the trade off for the compact carry size of that particular piece. 

Your quad-eye rig doesn't look a whole lot taller when collapsed (fatter but maybe not longer) and has a lot more in place outta the bag.  The feet are still low to the ground but those bright green balls on the feet are a nice beacon.  I may have to add that for open use spaces.  What did you use for those?  Was it tennis balls? 

On the potato-potatoe of attachment indeed yours is the right approach :facepalm: but it still would make me nervous to be in a rush spinning metal parts around my cables...   Obviously it can be done but it seems better in a perfect(ly designed) world to arrive fully armed like the quad eye or have a simpler attachment (clamp/plate). 
« Last Edit: September 23, 2014, 01:03:30 PM by bombdiggity »
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Re: Recording Marching Band (formerly: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?)
« Reply #73 on: September 23, 2014, 03:44:59 PM »
Your quad-eye rig doesn't look a whole lot taller when collapsed (fatter but maybe not longer) and has a lot more in place outta the bag.  The feet are still low to the ground but those bright green balls on the feet are a nice beacon.  I may have to add that for open use spaces.  What did you use for those?  Was it tennis balls?

That light-stand I'm using and a few other small ones are designed so that the legs fold upwards (over center, with the feet ending up at the top), which allows for a shorter stowed length about the length of each leg.  Most light-stands stow with the legs folded downwards (feet at the bottom), so they stow longer than the length of each leg.

The green balls at the bottom (and also the ones acting as the spherical baffles for the omnis microphones) are light but dense, solid closed-cell foam balls used in Nerf brand toy guns, sold in packs of 6 or 8 as 'ballistics balls'.  I bought them at a local Toys-R-Us. Used as replacement stand feet, they help keep the stand from sinking into soft soil or sand, and provide some cushioning on hard concrete surfaces as we visual indication.  I just made used a razor knife to make a slit in the balls that was about the width of each leg and about 3/4 of the way deep into the ball and slipped one onto each leg.  For the spherical microphone baffles, I melted holes of the appropirate size through them with the head of a heated nail and painted them charcoal 'Nextel' grey with a spray can of upholstery paint from an automotive store.

If you can't find those particular green Nerf Balistic Balls I prefer, I've seen balls made of the same material in sporting goods stores, in a slightly smaller diameter and usually yellow in color, sold as floating practice golf balls and outdoor ping-pong balls (or maybe paddle balls).
« Last Edit: September 23, 2014, 03:50:28 PM by Gutbucket »
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Re: Recording Marching Band (formerly: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?)
« Reply #74 on: September 23, 2014, 05:31:47 PM »
The camera tripod format is also better because it is more obvious about the space it is staking out.  A traditional mic stand has legs that spread wider and very low to the grand so the outer dimensions of the real estate it occupies are not very obvious and those are easier to get accidentally entangled in.

A light stand (designed for holding lights for photography) is the most common type of stand used for recording around here.  It is basically much more like a camera tripod than a traditional microphone stand, but has fixed instead of telescoping legs, making it much simpler and faster to setup, though it provides less leveling adjustments.  Instead of a hand-cranked top tube for fine adjustment of height, they have simple multi-sectioned telescopic vertical tube section which clamp in place. They are available from about 12" to up to to 25'+ tall. Similarly to a camera tripod, the diameter of the footprint can be adjusted as to be wider for for more stability or narrower for a smaller and more compact footprint, at the risk of being less stable. 

Not only that they are often much more reasonably priced and/or better made.  I trust my cheap-o Ravelli 10 foot stand any day over the Shure S15 stands I've seen.
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Re: Recording Marching Band (formerly: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?)
« Reply #75 on: September 23, 2014, 05:59:31 PM »

That's a great idea.  I have a cheap but very good monopod that goes about 65" that I'm thinking of using.  If I can attach some type of small case or bag to the top of the monopod / tripod / etc. to hold the tinybox and my M10, the entire recording setup will be contained in a very small space.  I have a couple small camera cases and a little neoprene one with a belt loop that can be attached to the monopod handle.  Then it's just a matter of cable management.


My concern with monopod (as I interpret that concept) is that you'd have to hold it up? 


Well for me, I own a monopod already and if I'm on field level on the aforementioned pit-instrument schlepping crew, I'll be right there to hold it.  Most of these places also have a chain-link fence or rail on the front of the stands where you can clamp the monopod to also.
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Had a competition after many weeks off at a very windy stadium last night.  Thank goodness for TBrown's muppetts!  This is the same band, but it's an excerpt near the end of the show that has a bit more variety.  I was set up right on the 50, but clamped to the rail in front of the front row of seats in the stands.  You will hear piano (synth) and the mallets through the portable PA, a drumline feature, then full band - almost all woodwinds and brass are to the right of the 50.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/wvfajrzvi38h66v/141018_01.flac?dl=0

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Sounds very nice Voltronic! Now that the season is done, or nearly done, how did it go overall?
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Thanks!  The season went well, although I only got to record a handful of times.  Didn't bring my rig to record finals competition since they had a professional company there making DVDs for all of the bands.  Unfortunately our disc was blank... too bad since their performance was far better.
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I'd like to ask what lessons were learned from this taping experience?  Things you'd do differently and things you thought worked
well.

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I'd like to ask what lessons were learned from this taping experience?  Things you'd do differently and things you thought worked
well.

1. Having the mics pre-set in the mount / clamp setup is definitely the way to go for these time-pressure situations, but since these mics need a wider spacing it's difficult to fit the assembled rig in a bag.  I compromised by having the full setup pre-cabled and mounting rig attached to the superclamp, so all I had to do was clamp onto a rail and slide in the mics.

2. Contradicting #1 a bit, if I know ahead of time that I'll be recording from the sideline / track area, I can use a stereo bar with narrower spacing pre-set with the mics as opposed to my DIY NOS mount which is a bit bulky.

3. The TBrown Muppets are fantastic windscreens, but I need to remember to bring some hair bands or other way of securing them (with the foam underneath) tighter on these mics.  A couple shows were VERY windy and thought I thought the screens were going to take off.  Every year our November shows are extremely windy.

4. One show got moved indoors to a HS gym because of the weather.  I knew this ahead of time but only brought my omnis simply because they are much cheaper to replace if they got wet during the unload.  I should have used the CM3s.  The gym was half the size I expected it to be which made it even more boomy than anticipated. 

5. A couple shows I decided not to bring my recording rig because someone else was recording or there was a "professional" setup.  I now know that I should always bring mine. 
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Yep on the "professionals" messing things up. One time they were adjusting their gain knobs DURING OUR PERFORMANCE. Luckily I recorded myself that time so all was not lost. The other time I am kicking myself for not recording was they had their gains too high, and every snare drum rimshot you could hear the nasty cracking of clipping. Oh yeah, another is this year (and two years ago, same company) the final product was in mono (even though they have a stereo setup). So glad i got my own copy.

The other mistake that the "professionals" consistently mess up is spacing the mics too far (about 30 yards apart) so then it messes up the sound of the snare drums.

I wouldn't hesitate to contact the people that recorded your competition and see if they can get you a copy that isn't silent!
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Yep on the "professionals" messing things up. One time they were adjusting their gain knobs DURING OUR PERFORMANCE. Luckily I recorded myself that time so all was not lost. The other time I am kicking myself for not recording was they had their gains too high, and every snare drum rimshot you could hear the nasty cracking of clipping. Oh yeah, another is this year (and two years ago, same company) the final product was in mono (even though they have a stereo setup). So glad i got my own copy.

The other mistake that the "professionals" consistently mess up is spacing the mics too far (about 30 yards apart) so then it messes up the sound of the snare drums.

I wouldn't hesitate to contact the people that recorded your competition and see if they can get you a copy that isn't silent!

We did contact the company - and it was completely blank, as in no video either.  I'm not too optimistic about the sound though - they had 4 mics that I couldn't identify, all older-looking pencil condensers with plain aluminum bodies but no visible logos.  One X-Y pair at the 50, and outriggers on each 30.  They didn't seem to be aimed with a great deal of precision.  They also appeared to have just foam windscreens on a very windy day.  Sigh.
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Could be a parent has a smartphone video.  Do you think you will record audio and video next season just in case?


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We got a couple good parent videos from folks who own good DSLRs so we're covered there.  Typically those people send me their video and I replace their on-camera audio with my recordings and we have a nice pairing. 

Lesson learned - I'm always bringing my audio gear whenever I can.
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Just got a chance to listen, sounds good.  Thanks for posting that clip.
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Re: Recording Marching Band (formerly: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?)
« Reply #86 on: September 05, 2015, 09:58:47 AM »
First band show of the season was last night, and I tried my X-Qs in a 1m spaced config on top of the press box.  Lineage was X-Q > FP24 > M10.

This was the first public performance for the kids, so the playing is understandably tentative and/or ragged at times.  Also, this was a football game crowd, so the audience was pretty loud during the show.  Competitions will have a quiet audience.

On a side note, the Rode WS8 screens I was using for the first time are fantastic.  There were some significant wind gusts up there, and you hear very little of it on the recording.

BTW, in the pic below that's the visiting team's band leaving the field; not our kids.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/6uu9qjwxkhmaicb/AAAdcnBAbxfBRXROxLmIGQhza?dl=0
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Re: Recording Marching Band (formerly: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?)
« Reply #87 on: September 05, 2015, 11:11:21 AM »
Nice facility you have there. 

The perspective of the photo makes it look like the microphone position is pretty distant from the playing field?  The chain link rail is the top of the press box with nothing behind you like a wall?  Then there are those two banners attached to the chain link fence.  Wonder if those tend towards any boundary effect?

Certainly a useable recording for teaching purposes although there is that crowd chatter. 

Looking at the picture, there don't seem to be many other options for placing microphones short of putting up a stand nearer the field. You just need a remote controlled mic stand like the old power car antennas that went up and down with a push of a button.   ;D

 

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Re: Recording Marching Band (formerly: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?)
« Reply #88 on: September 05, 2015, 12:44:41 PM »
Yes, it's distant but the home stands aren't that tall.  Maybe 20 rows at most to the top.

I highly doubt those banners could have any boundary effect  influence on the mics in this situation, unless the mics were right in front of them.  The X-Q has an elevated treble response which may be what you're hearing, but that's exactly why they work at distance.

If you look closely through the gap between the banners, you'll see the fence that borders the front of the stands.  That's probably the best placement option, as it's about 10 feet off the ground.  Then there's another chest-high fence on field level that borders the track, about 10-12 feet closer than the stands.  For competitions, I will be using one of those two closer placements, depending on the access I can get at each stadium.

The crowd noise is awful, I know.  There was a really belligerent section of about 50-60 students from the visiting team's school that would not calm down, and they actually were ejected near the end of our show.

I also recorded the visiting band who played pregame before most of those asshats got there.  Maybe if I can find a couple good excerpts I'll post those as well.

I'm curious to hear thoughts on the placement itself, if it's possible to ignore the crowd.
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Re: Recording Marching Band (formerly: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?)
« Reply #89 on: September 05, 2015, 04:48:49 PM »
Crowd noise is pretty much unavoidable with the crowd in front of the mics.  I think your dilemma is the press box is the best spot for video, but the ten foot fence may be your best bet for mic location.  Could be interesting to put a set of unobtrusive mics on the fence to make an audio recording there, but shoot video from the press box to sync later. 

Got anyone you can team up with? 


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Re: Recording Marching Band (formerly: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?)
« Reply #90 on: September 05, 2015, 05:12:12 PM »
Crowd noise is pretty much unavoidable with the crowd in front of the mics.  I think your dilemma is the press box is the best spot for video, but the ten foot fence may be your best bet for mic location.  Could be interesting to put a set of unobtrusive mics on the fence to make an audio recording there, but shoot video from the press box to sync later. 

Got anyone you can team up with?

Yes, the band bought a Zoom Q8 which is a cool little camera, other than the severe fish-eye which I don't care for.  One of the directors was running that next to me from the press box, and I was thinking of exactly your suggestion for next time.  If I clamp my mics onto that fence as I did at the press box, they're not going to be in anyone's way.
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Re: Recording Marching Band (formerly: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?)
« Reply #91 on: September 08, 2015, 12:04:54 PM »
Thanks for posting samples.  Enjoyed the last clip most, and the audience was a bit quieter for that one as well.

While looping that file I made some significant EQ corrections and brought out some details with a touch of "bottom-up" compression using the adjustments available in VLC, which I was using to play the files.  Those things went along way towards making it sound more impactful and clearer, seemingly "closer" sounding.
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Re: Recording Marching Band (formerly: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?)
« Reply #92 on: September 09, 2015, 06:40:44 PM »
Thanks for posting samples.  Enjoyed the last clip most, and the audience was a bit quieter for that one as well.

While looping that file I made some significant EQ corrections and brought out some details with a touch of "bottom-up" compression using the adjustments available in VLC, which I was using to play the files.  Those things went along way towards making it sound more impactful and clearer, seemingly "closer" sounding.

I'd be curious what EQ settings you chose so I could try replicating them.  I just put that clip through Ozone using the "Upward Compression" preset which I usually like, but with only the Dynamics and Maximizer modules active.  No EQ, but I like the improvement in presence so far.  I uploaded it in the dropbox folder linked above.

This was a fun experiment, but I don't think I'll record from that far away again if I'm given the choice.  It didn't sound as bad as I expected though.
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Re: Recording Marching Band (formerly: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?)
« Reply #93 on: September 09, 2015, 10:22:58 PM »
Something like this (did this quicker, just now, as a loose approximation.  Works okay on this particular system.. hand-wringing & whatev)

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Re: Recording Marching Band (formerly: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?)
« Reply #94 on: September 12, 2015, 08:01:13 AM »
Great pic Voltronic! I have probably seen over 100 Pitt football games in my day, and I have ALWAYS wanted to record their marching band mid-field :) I have seen Pitt's recording setup from afar, but it was certainly no Schoeps rig lol :)

Id love to hear a sample from your rig because I've always wondered what it sounded like mid-field like that!
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Re: Recording Marching Band (formerly: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?)
« Reply #95 on: September 12, 2015, 08:43:53 AM »
Great pic Voltronic! I have probably seen over 100 Pitt football games in my day, and I have ALWAYS wanted to record their marching band mid-field :) I have seen Pitt's recording setup from afar, but it was certainly no Schoeps rig lol :)

Id love to hear a sample from your rig because I've always wondered what it sounded like mid-field like that!

Go back a page to Reply #88 for the link to my Dropbox folder.  In a couple weeks, I should have some samples from field-level or front-of-stands.

I also just uploaded a sample of the visiting band that played pregame before most of the crowd was there.  I had the gain set higher on the FP24 for that recording but everything else identical.  This was the loudest part of their show.  These samples are titled "Visitors" and I have it with and without compression / maximization.  Both clips were limited and normalized.  Please be kind about the playing - remember these are high school students and it was the first show of the season.

You'll notice the "pit" percussion is much louder with this band - that's because one side of the PA crapped out for the home band, which is what all of those instruments are run though.
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As promised, here are samples from a recent competition, recorded from my preferred location of the front railing of the stands at the 50.  Still a 1 meter spacing at this point.  I ran the recording through the same exact compression and maximizer settings in Ozone as posted above.  There are also unprocessed tracks for comparison, but I prefer the processed versions.

Since this was a competition, the crowd was small and quiet.  In the first clip, you will clearly hear the field judges dictating notes, as well as our small Honda generator which powers the pit electronics.

Sample 1 - Clean
Sample 1 - Processed
Sample 2 - Clean
Sample 2 - Processed
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More samples from another competition last night, with a couple of changes:

Mics set about 8-10 feet farther back, as I normally clamp onto the front railing of home stands, but in this case I needed to actually be able to sit with my equipment so I was clamped onto the railing right in front of the first seat at the 50 (see picture below - this is not the band heard in the samples below). 

Spacing was only 60cm this time instead of 1m, and instead of FP24 > M10 I chose to use my modified 70D outdoors for the first time.  Mastering settings the same as before.

Sample 1 - Clean
Sample 1 - Processed
Sample 2 - Clean
Sample 2 - Processed
« Last Edit: October 25, 2015, 09:44:50 AM by voltronic »
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Offline voltronic

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Re: Recording Marching Band (formerly: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?)
« Reply #98 on: September 28, 2016, 07:39:00 PM »
...And we're back.  First competition of the season this past Saturday night, and we had a surprise guest performance from the Boston University Marching Band, who were warming up for a college band competition in Allentown the next day.  They did a fun pop set at intermission.  (If you like it loud, skip to 6 min!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVFIGOfyrfM

I decided to abandon the spaced omnis for this season as they take up too much lateral room and interfere with the spectators next to me, plus it means two clamps, two shockmounts, etc.  So for this show (and based on the results, probably the entire season):

CM3s, in SRS "Wide ORTF" mount=http://www.shapeways.com/product/F9QV4WQ7A/wide-ortf-cm3
Røde WS8 windscreens
DIY shockmount with 68-shore Rycote lyres
Superclamp onto front rail of stands at 50
DR-70D JWMod, MID gain, about 10:00

The section where I was at this field is set back 20 feet back from the rest of the stands, overhanging a walkway.  So it's back a little farther than I'd like to be, but the elevation helps the balance.
DPA 4061 | Line Audio CM3 | Naiant X-Q
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Quote
I am hitting my head against the walls, but the walls are giving way.    ///    If a composer could say what he had to say in words he would not bother trying to say it in music.
- Gustav Mahler

Offline Karl

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Very nice!
My portable rig:

AT853>Tascam DR100 mkii

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Re: Recording Marching Band (formerly: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?)
« Reply #100 on: December 13, 2016, 08:44:08 PM »
Very nice!
I agree. very balanced recording. catches the xylophones and other softer instruments.
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Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI

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My portable rig:

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Re: Recording Marching Band (formerly: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?)
« Reply #102 on: December 14, 2016, 09:32:52 PM »
This isn't the best performance, but here is a 4 track recording I made of my drumline: https://www.dropbox.com/s/9rmc31ejz4cbx7b/2016%20AJHS%20Winter%20Ensemble%20Recording%20Session%20%28Monday%20before%20Champs%29.flac?dl=0

Nice!  Are you performing or are you the director?  Neat arrangement of the Dvorak New World Symphony.  Can you share the details of the recording?  Sounds like the mics were right up on the mallets.
DPA 4061 | Line Audio CM3 | Naiant X-Q
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Tascam DR-70D JWMod | Sony PCM-M10

Tascam DR-70D FAQ
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Quote
I am hitting my head against the walls, but the walls are giving way.    ///    If a composer could say what he had to say in words he would not bother trying to say it in music.
- Gustav Mahler

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Re: Recording Marching Band (formerly: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?)
« Reply #103 on: December 15, 2016, 12:08:11 AM »
Glad you like it! I'm the director, I arranged all of the music.  I had two stereo rigs recording this. 1st rig (for the battery instruments) is in my sig, AT853>Tascam DR-100mkII. 2nd rig (for the pit instruments) is Rode NT5>Edirol UA-5>Zoom H2n.  Both sets of mics were about 8 feet high. AT853's are locked about 15cm apart, and the NT5's were about 5 yards apart. And yes, they picked up on the mallet instruments almost too well, you can hear every mistake!


For fun, I took this and made my first surround mix out of this!
My portable rig:

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Re: Recording Marching Band (formerly: Furry windscreens - moisture resistance?)
« Reply #104 on: December 15, 2016, 09:22:15 AM »
Karl,
Very nice tonal quality. The mallets are certainly front and center but the overall performance is captured really well.
Kudos!
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI

 

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