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Offline refrain

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Fig 8 small condenser mic
« on: June 17, 2015, 01:42:26 PM »
Hello,

Looking for a small condenser mic with Fig8 polar configuration. I know they are a bit of rare and usually expensive, I've been doing MS recording (about 10-12 years) with a pair of AKG blue-line's (CK91-CK94), I like them for the stereo representation, they're not the sharpest or detailed mics around, but can't get anymore the CK94 head and preamp, so I was wandering is something similar? The price of a new SE300+CK94 is around 650€ (in europe), perhaps second-hand? Can anyone of you point into any direction?

Thanks,
CS
Mics: 2x Oktava MK-012 Card (XY, ORTF), AT BP4025 (STEREO XY), DIY Primo 172 48v matched stereo, Sony ECM 55B (Lav), DIY piezo mics
Audio Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6
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Offline pohaku

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Re: Fig 8 small condenser mic
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2015, 07:34:26 PM »
Mics: akg c460 (ck61, ck63), c414buls, c568eb; at4049a, 4051a, 4053a, at853; josephson c42; neumann U87, km84i; beyer m130, m160, m500; aea r84; gefell m71, mt711s, m200, m201, um70S; sony c38; schoeps cmc6, CMBI (mk4, mk21, mk41, mk4v); sennheiser mkh30, mkh40, md421, md431, md541; audix m1290
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Recorders/converters/monitors: dr680, m10, dr-2d, d50, zoom f8 & F8n pro, 788T SSD CL-8, lynx aurora 8, Neumann KH20


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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Fig 8 small condenser mic
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2015, 10:42:22 AM »
^^
I'm looking forward to this one.
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline myke2241

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Re: Fig 8 small condenser mic
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2015, 10:56:22 AM »
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=172938.0

See the new Naiant figure 8 mic.

it looks like two independant capsules or at the very least two distant diaphragms. a lot of people bock at dual diaphragms because it is not true fig8 although it will work and on high end mics like the MKH 80 & 800 (diaphragm much closer together) it works very nicely but the MKH 30 and KM120 are single diaphragm true fig8 with backplates. the CCM 8 is also single diaphragm but lacks a back plate to my understanding. if you are on a really low budget Naiant fig8 will work but not the way a fig8 is suppose to. if you have a budget buy something else.
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Offline Bruce Watson

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Re: Fig 8 small condenser mic
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2015, 12:07:11 PM »
Looking for a small condenser mic with Fig8 polar configuration.

Sennheiser MKH 30. Single diaphragm. Sufficiently symmetrical that they get used as the side mic in a lot of classical and acoustical M/S recordings. May be the only RF condenser figure 8 mic, which may explain its lasting popularity with the wildlife and soundscape people using M/S for field recording.

Very hard to find on the used markets, yet Sennheiser has declined to make the much rumored MKH 8030 because of low expected sales. Hard to understand, but I don't have access to their spreadsheets.

backwhereubelong

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Re: Fig 8 small condenser mic
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2015, 02:26:11 PM »
I have a PipSqueek bu Naiant ... is it enough juice to power one of these?

backwhereubelong

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Re: Fig 8 small condenser mic
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2015, 04:31:56 PM »
No, it needs phantom power, at least 9V @ 1.5mA.

Thank You!  Can this be terminated into a mini-jack (1/8) or am I completely missing the boat here?  :facepalm:

Offline noahbickart

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Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v (x2), mk22 (x2), mk3 (x2), mk21 & mk8
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Offline myke2241

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Re: Fig 8 small condenser mic
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2015, 05:51:01 PM »
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/629674-REG/Ambient_Recording_ATE208_SET_ATE_208_SET_Emesser.html

I totally forgot to mention the Emesser! V2 Emesser is much improved over V1 and is a great value as a kit! your really not going to get much smaller either.
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Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Fig 8 small condenser mic
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2015, 07:08:44 PM »
The ck94 cap is still shown as a special order item at B & H for $499. 

Offline DSatz

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Re: Fig 8 small condenser mic
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2015, 09:59:02 PM »
Jon, a single-diaphragm figure-8 capsule can be built with an electrode that is identical in size, shape and location to a second backplate but that isn't charged electrically; in this way it will be acoustically symmetrical even though it isn't "push-me, pull-you."

By the way, Schoeps used a true push-pull design in its figure-8 capsules in the 1960s, years before any other manufacturer. But they stopped using that approach since it didn't gain them any audible advantage, and made manufacture and repair more complicated.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2015, 11:20:48 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline DSatz

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Re: Fig 8 small condenser mic
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2015, 11:39:36 PM »
> the phase response of the system has the same effect irrespective of the angle of incidence of the sound that causes it

If the M and S (or X and Y) capsules are vertically aligned, and you draw a vertical line through the centers of their diaphragms, that line will have a midpoint. And then if you draw straight, horizontal lines going in toward that midpoint from all the directions where direct sound is occurring, the path length from any such point to the upper capsule = the path length from that same point to the lower capsule.

In practice, since the zenith of different sound sources is never exactly equal, you have to aim for an average zenith that splits the differences. Thus if your M/S or X/Y pair is at a higher elevation than the sound sources, you angle the pair downward somewhat. But that's what anyone would do anyway, no?

--best regards
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline John Willett

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Re: Fig 8 small condenser mic
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2015, 03:57:59 AM »
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=172938.0

See the new Naiant figure 8 mic.

Yuk - looks like back-to-back cardioids with quite a bit of space between the two diaphragms.

Not for me.

As has been said, the best is probably the Sennheiser MKH 30, but this is pretty expensive.

At the affordable end, I would go for the Ambient ATE 208 EMESSER - a single-diaphragm fig.8, small, high quality and affordable - comes complete with a Rycote clip to attach to the "Mid" mic. for MS.


Offline DSatz

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Re: Fig 8 small condenser mic
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2015, 08:37:45 AM »
> back-to-back cardioids with quite a bit of space between the two diaphragms

If that's the approach, the results can be quite good throughout the low and mid frequency range, and even at high-ish frequencies within some angle in front and back of the mike, as long as the recording distance is large relative to the spacing.

If you remember the Neumann KM 86--that's how it worked in figure-8 mode as well, and that's how it got its good low-frequency response in that mode. Unfortunately, the worst-case angle for the KM 86 was between 45 and 60 degrees off-axis, where it had a fairly horrendous high frequency peak (see polar response diagrams attached). In a Blumlein setup, 45 degrees is front-and-center for both mikes! And in M/S usage the range of angles around 45 degress is also very much in play. (It was an excellent cardioid, though.)

« Last Edit: June 20, 2015, 08:39:34 AM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline DSatz

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Re: Fig 8 small condenser mic
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2015, 11:35:57 AM »
All true enough, and all relevant to varying degrees. But M/S recording isn't all completely random and f***ed up; the core of the direct sound is picked up in fairly decent fashion. Specifically, it's really OK for reverberant sound to be a bit phase-scrambled and partially comb-filtered at high frequencies. Reverberant sound should be distinctly rolled off on top before it ever reaches the mikes, so this injury is being done to something that's not even there so much, and certainly isn't the main event.

All stereophonic sound is an illusion. It just has to be adequate. No one in their right mind claims to reproduce three-dimensional sonic reality perfectly. And the most convincing representations use even more microphones and speakers, which tends to swamp one's perceptions of relative phasing rather than to give more accurate information.

We poor humans are just not all that good at detecting what's live and what's Memorex. Fortunately most people seem to prefer sonic pleasure over absolute sonic realism; it's far easier to get the former than the latter.

--best regards
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Fig 8 small condenser mic
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2015, 11:42:37 AM »
Thankfully, although it's a fatal blow to absolute sonic realism, realization of the illusory nature of stereophonic reproduction doesn't inhibit the willing suspension of disbelief necessary for our sonic enjoyment.

With regards to what's actually going on, can anyone here point me to any polar measurements of actual M/S arrays?  Not the ubiquitous theoretical plots, but measurements made from real microphones setup in actual M/S implementations, showing the deviations from the idealized plots?

Closest I've ever found was this paper: A More Realistic View of Mid/Side Stereophony by Trevor Owen de Clercq - http://www.midside.com/pdf/nyu/masters_thesis.pdf

That paper contains polar plots of the L/R output of M/S arrays using the Neumann KM100 series, two U89, and the SM69.  I was very excited when I came across it years ago.  However, my excitement was greatly diminished when I discovered the data was not sourced from actual measurements of real-world M/S setups using those microphones, but rather mathematically extrapolated from the published polar plots for each microphone capsule/pattern.  The results estimate the M/S polar distortions due to variations in the individual polars of each of the microphones in combination, but the calculations still assume perfect coincidence.  Because of that, they do not reflect actual real-world implementations which are not, and can never be perfectly coincident.  Realworld measurements are likely to be further distorted in pattern, especially at high frequencies.

Here's the relevant quote from the above linked paper concerning it's methodology- The data used to calculate these sum and difference polar patterns versus frequency response graphs was extracted from the polar patterns freely available for download at Neumann’s English web site: http://www.neumann.com. Each gif file was opened in Photoshop to make exact measurements. At ten degree intervals, the decibel reduction (calculated in pixels) for each test frequency was recorded. This data was then mapped onto a 0 – 1 scale for use in number crunching programs. The result was a 19 X 8 matrix with each row representing a different test frequency (starting with 125 Hz) and each column representing a different angle of sound incidence (starting at zero degrees). The compiled data is available in the appendix. All Mid/Side to Left/Right conversions of this data were conducted in the FORTRAN programming environment of MATLAB. With MATLAB, advertised as numerical visualization software, the resulting matrixes of Left/Right information could be easily graphed on a polar plot with separation for individual frequencies.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2015, 02:00:26 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline refrain

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Re: Fig 8 small condenser mic
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2015, 01:09:53 PM »
Thank you for all your replys, but I was looking for a simple and efective way of replacing the  AKG CK94... the Emesser is one of the ways, but still quite expensive... the senn's MKH30, or the shoeps (colletes ou CCM) are perfect but way out of my league...
As I said, I not very versed on the mechanics of the alignment, or other techies about MS tecnhiques, just that the AKG config I had really worked... gonna check the naiant fig8...
Mics: 2x Oktava MK-012 Card (XY, ORTF), AT BP4025 (STEREO XY), DIY Primo 172 48v matched stereo, Sony ECM 55B (Lav), DIY piezo mics
Audio Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6
Assorted audio acessories: Motu Ultralite MKIII, Echofire2 interface, Mackie 802 VLZ3 mixer, Rode Blimp II, sennheiser hd25
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Offline heva

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Re: Fig 8 small condenser mic
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2015, 10:42:25 AM »
This one has a fig.8 capsule [of some sort], don't know if it's halfway decent.

http://www.micsdirect.com/superlux_e525s.htm

Offline myke2241

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Re: Fig 8 small condenser mic
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2015, 11:41:20 AM »
This one has a fig.8 capsule [of some sort], don't know if it's halfway decent.

http://www.micsdirect.com/superlux_e525s.htm

I think that has three caps. the capture technique is MS. it allows your to select from raw MS, stereo LR wide and narrow (internal matrixed with two width ratios) and mono. There are some mics that do this really well like MKH418, Sanken XXXX (can't remember the model) Neumann 191.... all of which are well engineered legends in their own right.

i personally think you would be happier with two mic MS system unless you can afford one of the above and want a single mic solution.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Fig 8 small condenser mic
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2015, 03:53:10 PM »
Eh..

With the proper signal switching, any stereo M/S microphone can offer raw M/S (mono is just M only), stereo L/R wide and narrow settings, regardless of the internal particulars of what capsules it happens to use.  Yeah we're all geeky gear heads and like to discuss how this stuff works and why.  But really, all that matters is the results, getting those results reliably and doing so within budget.  In light of that who really cares how many capsules it has or how gets there? 

Sometimes we (the customer) get far too hung up on specifying not the result we want, which is all we should really care about, but on specifying how the provider should go about implementing it for us.  That's a conflict of their expertise against ours which sets things up for disappointment.   It leads to marketers tying the hands of their own creative engineers and product designers by selling to the preconceived notions of the customer instead to the actual performance needs of the customer.  Bruno Putzeys nails it at the end of a AES powerpoint presentation, specifically in regards to amplifier designer consultants and their manufacturing customers who specify design criteria (often marketing driven) rather than performance criteria.  However, it applies far more broadly to most any provider/customer relationship.  Below is a quote from it, the full presentation PDF is available at the Hypex website- http://www.hypex.nl/docs/papers/AES123BP.pdf


The Two Roads

The Road To Hell:
Specify the Design, Accept the Performance.
The Road To Heaven:
Specify the Performance, Accept the Design.

Outset
• Customer has needs
• Subcontractor has capabilities

Potential problem
• Perceived overlap of competences
(Real overlap of actual competences is not a problem)

Failure modes
• Customer overestimates what they can do themselves
• Customer specifies implementation details
• Subcontractor meddles in customer’s work.

Critical steps for the Customer:
• Hire expertise, accept expertise.
• Write “black box” performance spec
• Performance is judged with the box closed and the power on.
• “Subjective sound quality” is a black box spec too.
• Type of circuit or parts is not a performance spec.


Not too far OT I hope.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2015, 09:15:41 AM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline heva

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Re: Fig 8 small condenser mic
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2015, 08:31:02 AM »
FWIW ... e525's insides ...


Offline refrain

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Re: Fig 8 small condenser mic
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2015, 11:43:15 AM »
FWIW ... e525's insides ...



Yeah, I've seen that one also, but the guy also talks about the MS side being a noise generator, that stopped after he put everthing together again... I´got a Shure VP88 (the same principle that the superlux, MHK 418S, etc), but really noisy, a bit heavy and big, good for indoors music, I was thinking about ordering this one from Thomman (europe), because it costs 100€ including shipping... and using it as a lowcost shotgun, besides the MS thing... but the Naiant make me think again, not yet available...
couple with a OKTAVA card... don't know...
« Last Edit: June 26, 2015, 11:47:31 AM by refrain »
Mics: 2x Oktava MK-012 Card (XY, ORTF), AT BP4025 (STEREO XY), DIY Primo 172 48v matched stereo, Sony ECM 55B (Lav), DIY piezo mics
Audio Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6
Assorted audio acessories: Motu Ultralite MKIII, Echofire2 interface, Mackie 802 VLZ3 mixer, Rode Blimp II, sennheiser hd25
Audio Monitors: Yamaha HS7

Offline heva

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Re: Fig 8 small condenser mic
« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2015, 07:00:37 AM »
If there's any truth in this e525's noise spec of 22dB, it's not worse than the AKG C94.

 

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