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Author Topic: Card+Omnis from the lawn  (Read 4869 times)

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Offline Limit35

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Card+Omnis from the lawn
« on: April 20, 2016, 11:27:59 PM »

I don't usually go to amphitheatre shows but will taping a few soon and have been trying to figure out how I am going to tape from the lawn. I was thinking I could run spread omnis (naiant x-x) somewhere around 1-1.5m to get a little ambiance and the stacks at the front of the lawn. Since I have two channels open I am between two options and hope for some opinions.

  A. I could run 853 cards x/y at the stage.
  B. I could run one 4033 at the stage.

Ideally, I will be around front center lawn, if not I can see omnis for the stacks and x/y working for any spot, left/center/right. Preferred in the center I imagine from back there.  The 4033 with a mono center channel will be the same in either third. So I guess the question is which would people prefer from a distance with the rear stacks a) split omni with x/y, or b) split with a single card, or c) just use the better card and fill out the stereo with the naiants.


Offline kindms

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Re: Card+Omnis from the lawn
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2016, 11:46:07 AM »

I don't usually go to amphitheatre shows but will taping a few soon and have been trying to figure out how I am going to tape from the lawn. I was thinking I could run spread omnis (naiant x-x) somewhere around 1-1.5m to get a little ambiance and the stacks at the front of the lawn. Since I have two channels open I am between two options and hope for some opinions.

  A. I could run 853 cards x/y at the stage.
  B. I could run one 4033 at the stage.

Ideally, I will be around front center lawn, if not I can see omnis for the stacks and x/y working for any spot, left/center/right. Preferred in the center I imagine from back there.  The 4033 with a mono center channel will be the same in either third. So I guess the question is which would people prefer from a distance with the rear stacks a) split omni with x/y, or b) split with a single card, or c) just use the better card and fill out the stereo with the naiants.

do you happen the have a super card or shotgun available ?

We have been having very nice results running split omnis with a short shotgun center. We have also run M/S as the center as well.

Given your choices I would run omni split with a center card. You could point the other card facing to the rear for some mixing possibilities (crowd reaction etc). Ha now i sound like Gutbucket
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Card+Omnis from the lawn
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2016, 02:39:28 PM »
Ha! That's what I'd do!
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Card+Omnis from the lawn
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2016, 03:28:59 PM »
But actually this is an excellent question and a difficult choice.  I'd probably go with the better quality single cardioid (4033) in the center, and point one of the 853s directly rearwards.  If you do that, it's best to space the two center mics a couple feet apart from each other if you can manage it- placing the 4033 a foot forward and the 853 a foot back from the center-line between the omnis.  If not no sweat.  The fore/back spacing isn't nearly as critical L/R spacing.

I'd likely choose to do that for two reasons- 1) using the better quality cardioid where it counts most  2) I really like having the backwards facing mic to work with most of the time, which sort of ends up serving a similar purpose as using a X/Y or M/S pair in the center.
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Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Card+Omnis from the lawn
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2016, 03:51:19 PM »
Since I am kindms running buddy I will second what he said and third what gutbucket says. I will add that as long as it is open taping be prepared to put the stand up as high as it will go within reason. Last year for Phish at SPAC we were at least 10 feet up. If you have two stands, you can do what gutbucket is saying: run the 4033 in the middle of the split omnis on the one stand, then place the other stand 12-16 inches back and aim the 853 toward the rear.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Card+Omnis from the lawn
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2016, 04:11:39 PM »
^ or just gaff tape the rear-facing 853 to a chopstick or something similar sticking backwards, an advantage of tiny lightweight microphones.  I was only about 8.5' up last weekend without much near-crowd noise problems, but that was as high as I could go.  Most of the chatter I picked up was tapers talking friends who stopped by underneath the mics! Bastards.  :P

Here's a photo of a setup similar to what I'm suggesting above-
(This is front/rear facing Microtech Gefell M94/MV692 cardioids between wide spaced 4061 omnis.)
[edit] You can see the mic bar on which the front/rear facing Geffs are mounted is oriented sort of diagonally, allowing the mics to be mounted side-by-side instead of back-to-back and making the arrangement compact enough that both mics fit under a small umbrella.  I can still shift the mics in the mounts to extend them somewhat further forward and back, but they need to be in the position below to use the umbrella effectively)




Here's the same using front/back facing AT853 cardioids in some ratty looking furs in place of the MGs-
(actually those were AT933 I'd borrowed to test the concept, later replaced with 853 which I liked better, later superceeded by DPA 4098 hypers)

« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 09:22:45 AM by Gutbucket »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Card+Omnis from the lawn
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2016, 04:18:54 PM »
I do like what an X/Y or M/S pair does between the wide omnis, as long as you are into tweaking the Mid/Side ratio of either for best effect in addition to playing with the level balance between the center pair and the omnis.  But that's sort of gravy on top of the main course of the omnis + single center mic. Just putting any mic between the two omnis goes a long way.  Bringing up some of the rear-facing mic in your mix effectively does something similar to what adjusting the M/S ratio of a forward facing center pair does- it opens up the sort of "hard-panned SBD sounding" center somewhat and blends it with the wide open and deep ambient base which the omnis are providing.

I was experimenting with using a M/S pair in the center between omnis just last weekend outdoors, and to do so I gave up my usual rear-facing mic channel to be able to run the Side figure-8.  However, I don't think I'll move to doing that regularly, partly because I also was running a sideways facing pair of near-spaced supercards which also do something sort of similar in combination with the single center mic as turning it into a M/S or X/Y (m/s adjusted X/Y) pair does.  I just I like the spaced sideways-facing supercard pair a bit better in a stereo mix, and a whole lot better with discrete multtchannel surround playback do to improved L/C/R channel separation.

Here's that arrangement as a full 8 channel array with both center forward and backwards facing M/S pairs hidden inside the big Shure windscreens, the omnis are cropped off out of frame, the mics at the edge are the sideways-facing supercards.  Last weekend's setup looked identical to this, except the rear facing M/S pair wasn't hooked up so I only needed to record 6 channels.   A good test, but I missed having that rear facing mic!




But if I had a wall reflection directly behind me or a noisy beer tent something, I'd not use the rear facing mic and switch to an X/Y or M/S pair in the center instead.

Hope that helps more than it confuses!

Link to the thread documenting the evolution of these crazy setups- http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=96009.msg1279052#msg1279052
« Last Edit: April 21, 2016, 04:20:31 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline Limit35

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Re: Card+Omnis from the lawn
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2016, 11:56:55 PM »

Thanks, a lot of good information there for me think about for the future too! I didn't think about a rear mic, I think I'll try that out with the 4033a and naiants.  I imagine increasing the angle on the rear mic would help so as not to mic the guy 10' up slope. In fact the rear mic should use the angle of the lawn now that I think about it.

I really want to do forward/rear 853s in a different setting now. That's something I never though about.

And here I was all stoked when I just figured out 853s can inserted in backward AT8438 mounts on a K&M 23550 to do x/y setups. I'll have to save that for another time.

Offline Limit35

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Re: Card+Omnis from the lawn
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2016, 01:26:05 AM »

In regards to spacing the cards. Is that in relation to each other, or in relation to the spacing of all 4 mics?  I could throw the rear 853 on a small diameter tent pole gaffed to a 8438 mount straight back to get that spacing between the cards easily. I'm maxed out at about 6" forward in the 4033.

Interesting, a lot of things to think about. Such as a single shotgun, hyper, or omni cap would open opportunities that I never thought about before. 

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Card+Omnis from the lawn
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2016, 09:02:17 AM »
The front/back mic spacing isn't critical, but some distance between them producing a bit of time difference is good.  8" forward is fine.   If you can place the rear facing one a foot or two behind the front one you're good.

I encourage you to try the 853s as forward facing X/Y in the middle too, and ordinarily that would be my first suggestion.  Partly because each of the two stereo pairs (wide omnis, X/Y cards) may be listened to alone, and compared, as well as mixed together.  Partly because it's a bit less odd, making that setup generally more understandable and acceptable to other tapers.  Which is more appropriate somewhat depends on the situation.  Using the 4033 in the center is a significant enough quality jump to sway me to suggesting the front/back facing pair before the 853s in X/Y.

My general working premise for a single forward facing mic in the center is that I want a directional mic there which focuses on the direct sound form the stage and minimizes pickup of ambient sound from all other directions.  It's sort of like using a soundboard recording in a matrix mix- the clean clear direct sound fills the center of the stereo image, and the wide omnis provide the ambient bed for it, with wide bass, and audience reaction spread out to the edges of the playback soundstage.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2016, 09:13:00 AM by Gutbucket »
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Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Card+Omnis from the lawn
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2016, 09:06:51 AM »

In regards to spacing the cards. Is that in relation to each other, or in relation to the spacing of all 4 mics?  I could throw the rear 853 on a small diameter tent pole gaffed to a 8438 mount straight back to get that spacing between the cards easily. I'm maxed out at about 6" forward in the 4033.

Interesting, a lot of things to think about. Such as a single shotgun, hyper, or omni cap would open opportunities that I never thought about before.
Oops. I didn't see Gutbuckets post in front of mine. Of course, he has the best explanation!  8) Also, doing the XY and split omnis gets you a "safety" 2 mic XY or Omni recording in case you don't like the single card in the middle.
We did this the first couple of times we tried side fig 8 and MId short shotgun. Now, we are comfortable not running the safety rig.!
If you can get the cards any amount forward or rearward of center, in the middle of the Omnis. and as Gut would say, 3 feet spread on the Omnis is minimum. That is the widest spread our Manfrotto mount does, I believe he has been running his Omnis at 6 foot apart.
Here are rig pic links to our setups kindms described:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=177186.0                         Our recent Omni split with Forward facing fig 8 and side facing fig 8
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=176841.0                        we were running 6 mics in this pic, but what we chose to mix was the 2 outside Omnis and the AKG ck8 shotgun in the middle
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=176719.0                     the third pic is the M/S set up using AKG 414 XLS-II in figure 8 as the S and an AKG 460/ck8 as the M
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=175276.0                     we ran this as a first try without any Omnis: AKG C414 XLII-ULS as a figure 8, and my AKG C460B w/ck8 capsule as the mid  (in fact, this was the       
                                                                                                run when we decided to start using spread Omnis with a middle mic following Gutbuckets recs)
                                                             
« Last Edit: April 22, 2016, 09:52:48 AM by rocksuitcase »
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Offline lsd2525

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Re: Card+Omnis from the lawn
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2016, 09:46:56 AM »
I got a question for you math wizards......trying something new tonight and this weekend. Picked up a set of Nak 300's (using the Omni caps); going to run them along with my AT4041 cards. At the time, my bar is around 2 feet. Was going to run the Nak Omnis on the outside so I could get the biggest amount of split, with the AT's as the inside set in more of a DIN/PAS configuration. Since I can only split the omnis a couple of feet (at most), should I do something different? I would run them as the inside set if I had a Jecklin disk, but I don't. any advice?
Mics: ADK A51s; AT4041; Superlux S502; CK91 active w/homebrew BB; AT853; Naiant X-X; Nak 300's
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Card+Omnis from the lawn
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2016, 10:12:00 AM »
You can probably get a few inches additional spacing on each side for the omnis by pointing them directly out to either side and pushing the mic bodies out as far out as you can in the mounting clips, as long as they are still securely held.  The mic bodies then extend beyond the length of the bar with the capsules at the outermost limit.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Card+Omnis from the lawn
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2016, 10:26:18 AM »
^^ That will be another good comparison for you.

Listened to on their own, I usually prefer near-spaced stereo configurations like DIN/PAS over X/Y.  But in combination with the omnis, I prefer X/Y in the center over a near-spaced config.  In addition X/Y is Mid/Side tweakable without weirdness, so the center of the image can be dialed in optimally if you care to make the effort to adjust that.  Near-spaced configs are Mid/Side tweakable too (any stereo recording is) but the bit of time/phase difference which makes them sound better in isolation can do some weird things if you shift the M/S ratio by more than a little.

X/Y PAS isn't normally anything I'd want to listen to on it's own, but works as an excellent counterpart combined with the spaced omnis. 
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Offline lsd2525

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Re: Card+Omnis from the lawn
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2016, 10:32:12 AM »
You can probably get a few inches additional spacing on each side for the omnis by pointing them directly out to either side and pushing the mic bodies out as far out as you can in the mounting clips, as long as they are still securely held.  The mic bodies then extend beyond the length of the bar with the capsules at the outermost limit.

And, being omnis, they don't need to be pointed at the stage/stacks.......won't I lose some top end? Or probably not enough to matter?

I'll be doing this a lot this summer. Might be time to invest in another stand. Or a really wide bar:)
Mics: ADK A51s; AT4041; Superlux S502; CK91 active w/homebrew BB; AT853; Naiant X-X; Nak 300's
Recorders: M10; DR-60D; DR-70D

 

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