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Author Topic: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?  (Read 4429 times)

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Offline fandelive

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Hello,

I recently purchased 2x said to be DPA4061 from an ebay reseller. I chopped the two original LEMO plugs and made them terminated with one single mini-jack plug.
I taped a show yesterday and distortion occured on bass drum. I think that should not happen with DPA4061...

Setup :
2x DPA4061 > CA-9100 preamp (gain between 11 and 12 o'clock) NO bass roll-off or HPF > Tascam DR-2d (line-in @ 96/100)

When you check the waveform, it approximately reaches the -5dB peak.
When you listen to the recording, it's distorted on bass drum. Brickwalling occured.
Here's a sample : http://cmlien.free.fr/ts/DPA.mp3

I've got a backup source made with MM-HLSC-1's (4.7k modded) and the sound is clean (waveform also approximately reaches the -5dB peak).

It's a shame if DPA4060 were sold for DPA4061. Is there a way to visually tell the difference between DPA 4060 and 4061 ?
I know they came from London musicals. Mics still had some painting marks and actors names on the wires when I got them.


I taped another show about one month ago and brickwalling didn't occur at all. I didn't felt like the sound was THAT lower at the venue (still a hard rock concert) but I could have been mistaken because I always wear earplugs.
Setup was : 2x DPA4061 > CA-9100 preamp (gain @ 11 o'clock) NO bass roll-off or HPF > Tascam DR-2d (line-in @ 96/100)

This time waveform barely reached the -20dB peak, but when normalised to 0db, I could hear no distortion.
Here's a sample : http://cmlien.free.fr/ts/sample_DPA4061.mp3


Any ideas on where this distorted sound comes from ?

9V battery into the CA preamp was used for approximately 9 hours.
I had fresh batteries into the Tascam.

Thanks,
-fandelive
« Last Edit: May 08, 2016, 02:06:20 AM by fandelive »
Mics : Sony ECM-717, SP-BMC-12, MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod), 2x DPA4060, 2x DPA4061
Battery box : SP-SPSB-6524 w/bass roll-off filter, MM-CBM-1
Preamp : Church Audio CA-9100
Recorders : Sony MZR-700PC, Edirol R-09HR, Tascam DR-2d

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 ?
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2016, 07:34:40 AM »
When i ran 4061s i found there output too be very hot i used an attenuator.Maybe using extra gain was your mistake.
Mics: Sennheiser mke2,AT 933's(c),Soundman OKM II Rock Studio,Sonic Studios DSM-6SL,Countryman B3,CA-14 (O) , CA-14 (C) , Aiwa CM30,Shure mv88
Pre's: PA3SX-U , CA - 9200 ,  CA- UGLY II
BBox:PA-6LC3B , CA-UBB (x 3) , AC3
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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 ?
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2016, 09:56:23 AM »
As a long time 4061 user, I'd really doubt that the mics could be the source of the distortion,  I've run mine in music so loud that earplugs and fingers jammed in my ears are not enough, painful volume. I never have run a preamp, battery box only. I'd suggest that set up for all loud shows, for sure. It should eliminate your issues. There is no reason I can think of to have a preamp in the set up for anything with much volume at all, as I said, I've never run one, even for quiet acoustic music. My set up is ALWAYS dpa4061's together on single 1/8" plug, SPSB3 battery box (I only change batteries 1x yearly) mic in to Sony d50. Works for me, no distortion EVER ;D

Offline fandelive

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 ?
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2016, 11:40:54 AM »
When i ran 4061s i found there output too be very hot i used an attenuator.Maybe using extra gain was your mistake.

Can extra gain from a preamp cause brickwalling or distortion when the waveform of the recording doesn't reach the 0dB threshold ?
Because my recording is not clipping.


As a long time 4061 user, I'd really doubt that the mics could be the source of the distortion. [...] My set up is ALWAYS dpa4061's together on single 1/8" plug, SPSB3 battery box (I only change batteries 1x yearly) mic in to Sony d50. Works for me, no distortion EVER ;D

I have a cheap battery health tester. It lights a scale of red leds depending on how healthy the battery is.

I just tested the 9V battery I used for about 9 hours only with the DPAs and the CA-9100 preamp (line-in) and the tester said the battery is "weak".
I also tested the 9V battery box I used for about 9 hours only with the MM-HLSCs and the SP battery-box (mic-in, juice from the bbox only, no PIP) and the tester said "normal".

Could the DPAs be such a power hogs that I'd need to replace the 9V battery after 6 hours only of use ???
And can a weak battery cause brickwalling ? (not enough juice to power the mics)
« Last Edit: May 07, 2016, 11:42:59 AM by fandelive »
Mics : Sony ECM-717, SP-BMC-12, MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod), 2x DPA4060, 2x DPA4061
Battery box : SP-SPSB-6524 w/bass roll-off filter, MM-CBM-1
Preamp : Church Audio CA-9100
Recorders : Sony MZR-700PC, Edirol R-09HR, Tascam DR-2d

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 ?
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2016, 01:11:13 PM »
yes, a weak battery can cause overload, one of my first mistakes ever taping, and also, yes, your battery could be dead early if you leave your mics plugged in, it seems to continue to draw power, despite not recording anything. So, for my one year plus 9v battery life for dpa 4061's, I plug the mics into the battery box only just a couple minutes before recording and I unplug them at the end of the night (not usually between bands or sets, though). If your std battery box works with the dpa's, I'd use it almost exclusively over the preamp, just my opinion, of course, but recording bands like Melvins, Mike Watt and Dinosaur Jr, I haven't had a brickwalling issue, even when recording right near the drums or the stacks

sooooooooo, use the sp battery box with a decent 9v and your dpa's, should be good for all loud shows, for certain!
« Last Edit: May 07, 2016, 01:13:54 PM by ilduclo »

Offline fandelive

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 ?
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2016, 07:31:25 AM »
sooooooooo, use the sp battery box with a decent 9v and your dpa's, should be good for all loud shows, for certain!

Thanks about the advice on not letting the mics plugged in. I can't remember whether I did it or not in the past...

Since the 11 o'clock position on the CA-9100 is 0dB, I guess it's just like using a 9V battery box.
Mics were powered by the preamp. No gain added.

I hope my issues were because of the weak battery.

Mics : Sony ECM-717, SP-BMC-12, MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod), 2x DPA4060, 2x DPA4061
Battery box : SP-SPSB-6524 w/bass roll-off filter, MM-CBM-1
Preamp : Church Audio CA-9100
Recorders : Sony MZR-700PC, Edirol R-09HR, Tascam DR-2d

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 ?
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2016, 04:22:41 AM »
sooooooooo, use the sp battery box with a decent 9v and your dpa's, should be good for all loud shows, for certain!

Thanks about the advice on not letting the mics plugged in. I can't remember whether I did it or not in the past...

Since the 11 o'clock position on the CA-9100 is 0dB, I guess it's just like using a 9V battery box.
Mics were powered by the preamp. No gain added.

I hope my issues were because of the weak battery.

I believe that DPA does not need much of battery.  Many people use it with the plug-in on the tiny recorder like Sony M-10.  I guess that the 11 o'clock position on the CA-9100 must be way too high for the loud rock shows....  I got the brickwalling with DPA4061s>Chruch Pre (10 o'clock position) at White Snake. Now I set 9 or 8 to be on the safe side. 
<Main Rigs>
Schoeps MK4s>(Nbox Active cables)>Nbox+ or Nbox Platinum>Izzy (Split) Cables>Sony PCM-M10 or Sony PCM-D100

<Sub Rigs>
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(2)DSM-6S/L>(terminated with 3.5 stereo mini)> Sony PCM-M10

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2016, 09:27:42 AM »
When you check the waveform, it approximately reaches the -5dB peak.
When you listen to the recording, it's distorted on bass drum. Brickwalling occured.
I've got a backup source made with MM-HLSC-1's (4.7k modded) and the sound is clean (waveform also approximately reaches the -5dB peak).

In that case it's most likely preamp distortion, and my first suspicion would be a battery with insufficient voltage as surmised above.  The clean backup recording rules out the source being distorted prior to you recording it, which may not be as audible at the live event as it is later when listening back to the recording.

Quote
It's a shame if DPA4060 were sold for DPA4061. Is there a way to visually tell the difference between DPA 4060 and 4061 ?
I know they came from London musicals. Mics still had some painting marks and actors names on the wires when I got them.

If the band around the cable which has the serial number printed on it is red, its a 4061.
If the band around the cable which has the serial number printed on it is white, its a 4060.

To be safe I change the 9V batteries after approximately 12hrs in my two original CA-UGLYs (same circuit as the 9100 I believe) which I use with 4060's.  Low battery voltage causes distortion exactly like you describe. It is first noticeable in the low bass.

Check battery voltage after the recording session, with the battery still in the preamp circuit and the preamp turned on.  Once the preamp has been off for a while, a spent battery will recover somewhat and may show a false higher Voltage reading when tested without any load across it, but when the load is reapplied the voltage will drop again rather quickly.
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations > virtual teleportation time-machine experience

"Narrow or widely spaced microphone configurations are preferred. It is well-known experience that pure coincidence microphone concepts are not able to produce a satisfying natural spatial impression, due to the lack of adequate interchannel temporal relations (time-of-arrival, phase, correlation)" -Günther Theile
"The mix of the Double M/S signals with a large A/B configuration of omnis results in the spacious sound that is often desired. This option also provides decorrelated low-frequency signals." -Helmut Wittek

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2016, 06:27:46 PM »
You can almost take everything Gutbucket says to the bank.  Thanks to his advice over the years I have greatly improved my recordings.  ;D

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2016, 06:40:42 PM »
Aw shucks, thanks. Just glad to be of help.
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations > virtual teleportation time-machine experience

"Narrow or widely spaced microphone configurations are preferred. It is well-known experience that pure coincidence microphone concepts are not able to produce a satisfying natural spatial impression, due to the lack of adequate interchannel temporal relations (time-of-arrival, phase, correlation)" -Günther Theile
"The mix of the Double M/S signals with a large A/B configuration of omnis results in the spacious sound that is often desired. This option also provides decorrelated low-frequency signals." -Helmut Wittek

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2016, 07:00:02 PM »


To be safe I change the 9V batteries after approximately 12hrs in my two original CA-UGLYs (same circuit as the 9100 I believe) which I use with 4060's.  Low battery voltage causes distortion exactly like you describe. It is first noticeable in the low bass.

 

pretty wasteful, IMO, like I said, I get a year out of my 9v's and that's probably at least 40 hrs.  If you have a tester, don't replace until there's a noticeable drop. Or use rechargeables

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2016, 08:11:04 PM »
I waste batteries maybe, but I replace after them two shows.  It's just not worth messing up a nice recording to save $3-4 dollars.  I only record 22-25 shows a year so spending $36-48 a year on batteries is no biggy.

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2016, 09:31:41 AM »
There's more to tossing batteries than money loss  :crazy:

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2016, 09:38:29 AM »
To be safe I change the 9V batteries after approximately 12hrs in my two original CA-UGLYs (same circuit as the 9100 I believe) which I use with 4060's.  Low battery voltage causes distortion exactly like you describe. It is first noticeable in the low bass.

pretty wasteful, IMO, like I said, I get a year out of my 9v's and that's probably at least 40 hrs.  If you have a tester, don't replace until there's a noticeable drop. Or use rechargeables

A battery box has far, far less current drain than a preamp using an active buffer.  I primarily use rechargables and recharge them after each use, and encourage others to do the same.  However, I need to replace them and have yet to do so, so I'm back to using disposable alkalines in the interim.  Chris Church mentioned 25 hrs or so for the CA-UGLY preamp.  It has no low battery indicator though, so I change them at about 12hrs and have not lost a show due to a low battery since doing that.  I had lost a few prior due to low battery voltage. 

Waste not batteries nor recordings.
Find the middle way.
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations > virtual teleportation time-machine experience

"Narrow or widely spaced microphone configurations are preferred. It is well-known experience that pure coincidence microphone concepts are not able to produce a satisfying natural spatial impression, due to the lack of adequate interchannel temporal relations (time-of-arrival, phase, correlation)" -Günther Theile
"The mix of the Double M/S signals with a large A/B configuration of omnis results in the spacious sound that is often desired. This option also provides decorrelated low-frequency signals." -Helmut Wittek

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2016, 10:00:22 AM »
There's more to tossing batteries than money loss  :crazy:

Before you get splinters by hugging trees and stuff, please re-read my comment.  Did I say I threw them away?  I don't think so.  I said I "replaced" them.  I'm not sure if you know this or not, so let me inform you, there are other things that use a 9 volt instead of just battery boxes.  I have a small recording studio in Georgia and we use them to power active pickups in various guitars.  There is also alarm clocks, flashlights and smoke detectors ...  I keep them in a refrigerator to minimize the drain until I find another use for them, and yes, once they are dead I toss 'em.  Good enough?  ::)
« Last Edit: May 17, 2016, 10:09:42 AM by Roots To Branches »

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2016, 11:08:24 AM »
ok, roooty, you're a prince

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2016, 11:20:28 AM »
Am I missing something, doesn't the 9100 have multiple gain settings....could this have been the problem, too high a gain setting before trimming?
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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2016, 01:25:31 PM »
Am I missing something, doesn't the 9100 have multiple gain settings....could this have been the problem, too high a gain setting before trimming?

yeah, MM, seems he had a dead battery. Does it EVERYTIME! :facepalm:

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 ?
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2016, 09:59:00 AM »
sooooooooo, use the sp battery box with a decent 9v and your dpa's, should be good for all loud shows, for certain!

Thanks about the advice on not letting the mics plugged in. I can't remember whether I did it or not in the past...

Since the 11 o'clock position on the CA-9100 is 0dB, I guess it's just like using a 9V battery box.
Mics were powered by the preamp. No gain added.

I hope my issues were because of the weak battery.
the 9100 does not draw ant power when the preamp is tuned off 12 o'clock is about unity gain my best guess is you had a weak battery. This preamp does not like anything close to 7 volts. The 4060 can overload with loud music especially bass drum and I'm assuming if these are theatre mics they are the more sensitive 4060 version. It could also be you have a bad mic. You can test them by using the preamp to power the mics plugging into your recorder set to unity gain and screaming directly into your mics not very scientific ;) but they should not overload when the preamp is at 12oclock and your recorder is set to unity gain.
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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 ?
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2016, 10:32:59 AM »
the 9100 does not draw ant power 

I'm not so sure about drawing ant power, but here's, instead, a drawing of a powerful ant


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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 ?
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2016, 04:04:46 PM »
the 9100 does not draw ant power 

I'm not so sure about drawing ant power, but here's, instead, a drawing of a powerful ant


lol meant to say "any power" not ant power :)
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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2016, 11:52:19 AM »

Quote
It's a shame if DPA4060 were sold for DPA4061. Is there a way to visually tell the difference between DPA 4060 and 4061 ?
I know they came from London musicals. Mics still had some painting marks and actors names on the wires when I got them.

If the band around the cable which has the serial number printed on it is red, its a 4061.
If the band around the cable which has the serial number printed on it is white, its a 4060.

Oh no, that ebay reseller sold me 4060's for 4061's... (see attached pic)
As I chopped the two original LEMO plugs and made the mics terminated with one single mini-jack plug, I don't see the seller taking them back or replacing them with 4061's. I'm gonna ask him if we can set up a deal cos', still, it's a shame... I'm really upset right now.
Mics : Sony ECM-717, SP-BMC-12, MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod), 2x DPA4060, 2x DPA4061
Battery box : SP-SPSB-6524 w/bass roll-off filter, MM-CBM-1
Preamp : Church Audio CA-9100
Recorders : Sony MZR-700PC, Edirol R-09HR, Tascam DR-2d

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2016, 12:34:12 PM »
I still suspect the primary problem was a weak battery.  Have you experienced the same distortion problem again since the original occurrence, using a fully charged fresh 9V in the preamp? 

Yes, of course you should have received what was advertized, and yes the 4061 may be a somewhat better fit for your recording use, but I hesitate to conclude that the 4060 will not work for you.
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations > virtual teleportation time-machine experience

"Narrow or widely spaced microphone configurations are preferred. It is well-known experience that pure coincidence microphone concepts are not able to produce a satisfying natural spatial impression, due to the lack of adequate interchannel temporal relations (time-of-arrival, phase, correlation)" -Günther Theile
"The mix of the Double M/S signals with a large A/B configuration of omnis results in the spacious sound that is often desired. This option also provides decorrelated low-frequency signals." -Helmut Wittek

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2016, 12:36:20 PM »
the 4060's should be AOK when powered correctly, the specs for the 4061's are 144 dB SPL Before Clipping, 4060's are 134dB SPL  :drummer:

both of these are significantly high for LOUD shows like Melvins, Earth, Sunn, etc

again, for loud shows it is simplest to use your battery box rather than a preamp. A lot less can go wrong thataway!


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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2016, 12:49:04 PM »
I still suspect the primary problem was a weak battery.  Have you experienced the same distortion problem again since the original occurrence, using a fully charged fresh 9V in the preamp? 

I've recorded another show 6 days ago and didn't experienced any distortion problem with a fresh battery and the CA-9100 set at ~10 o'clock.
But, I'm pretty sure the show was not as loud as the previous one as it was a semi-acoustic gig and I was standing further away from the speakers.

I taped 4 shows so far with the DPA's. The louder they were, the more brickwalled my tapes are.

the 4060's should be AOK when powered correctly, the specs for the 4061's are 144 dB SPL Before Clipping, 4060's are 134dB SPL  :drummer:

both of these are significantly high for LOUD shows like Melvins, Earth, Sunn, etc

again, for loud shows it is simplest to use your battery box rather than a preamp. A lot less can go wrong thataway!

I mainly record hard-rock bands like Rival Sons (think led Zeppelin) and do stack taping. It's loud.
I first taped with MM-HLSC-1's (Sennheiser MKE 2's - max SPL: 138dB) and had to made them 4.7k modded to achieve non-brickwalled results.
Mics : Sony ECM-717, SP-BMC-12, MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod), 2x DPA4060, 2x DPA4061
Battery box : SP-SPSB-6524 w/bass roll-off filter, MM-CBM-1
Preamp : Church Audio CA-9100
Recorders : Sony MZR-700PC, Edirol R-09HR, Tascam DR-2d

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2016, 12:58:12 PM »
Okay, close stack taping may reach a level where 4061 are required.

Have you tried running these powered by your battery box rather than the preamp in a loud stack-taping situation?  That would be the next thing I'd suggest trying before concluding that the distortion is actually from the microphones and not the preamp.
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations > virtual teleportation time-machine experience

"Narrow or widely spaced microphone configurations are preferred. It is well-known experience that pure coincidence microphone concepts are not able to produce a satisfying natural spatial impression, due to the lack of adequate interchannel temporal relations (time-of-arrival, phase, correlation)" -Günther Theile
"The mix of the Double M/S signals with a large A/B configuration of omnis results in the spacious sound that is often desired. This option also provides decorrelated low-frequency signals." -Helmut Wittek

Offline fandelive

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?
« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2016, 01:05:26 PM »
Have you tried running these powered by your battery box rather than the preamp in a loud stack-taping situation?

Ok, I'm going to try this next time. I don't see the ebay seller taking the mics back anyway.
I still have my MM-HLSC-1 backup as I run both... Both tapes from that last semi-acoustig gig I was talking about are great sounding, and I even think the Sennheisers smoked the DPAs on that occasion (even when EQ'ed) :)
« Last Edit: June 03, 2016, 01:07:15 PM by fandelive »
Mics : Sony ECM-717, SP-BMC-12, MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod), 2x DPA4060, 2x DPA4061
Battery box : SP-SPSB-6524 w/bass roll-off filter, MM-CBM-1
Preamp : Church Audio CA-9100
Recorders : Sony MZR-700PC, Edirol R-09HR, Tascam DR-2d

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?
« Reply #27 on: June 23, 2016, 06:45:57 PM »
I don't care what anyone says the 4060 will overload at concert levels it's not the preamp unless you have weak batteries. The mics are getting slammed acoustically with very high spl if most of the distortion is in the low end you know it's mic overload.
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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?
« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2016, 03:41:12 PM »
fyi

actual decibel levels of "the loudest" ever recorded

http://www.gibson.com/News-Lifestyle/Features/en-us/10-Loudest-Rock-Bands.aspx

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?
« Reply #29 on: June 25, 2016, 11:44:04 PM »
I have run into brickwalling issues running line in to my DR-2D using Schoeps MK4 and RBox twice.  The RBox runs a hotter signal than the NBox which has never had the issue.  The gain on your pre-amp may be the culprit.  BTW the two shows I had the issue were Steel Pulse and Aerosmith, bot extremely loud with lots of low end 

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?
« Reply #30 on: June 27, 2016, 01:46:13 AM »
I agree that it is likely the 4060s overloading. For stack taping, 4061s or even 4062s are a good idea.

Okay, close stack taping may reach a level where 4061 are required.


the 4060's should be AOK when powered correctly, the specs for the 4061's are 144 dB SPL Before Clipping, 4060's are 134dB SPL  :drummer:


It's not nearly as difficult to overload these mics as you would think. DPA specifies 134 dB max SPL, but that's not an RMS A-weighted rating.

Here's DPA's explanation (LINK):

Quote
In many recording situations it is essential to know the maximum Sound Pressure Level (SPL) the microphone can handle. Please note that in most music recording maximum peak SPL's easily supersede the RMS value by more than 20 dB. The RMS value indicates an average SPL and will not show the true SPL peaks.

If you're taping on the stacks and a traditional SPL meter reads 105 - 110 dB (usually measured at the board), peak SPLs at low frequencies can easily approach and exceed 134 dB.

In this situation, a preamp is not needed. In fact, I would say it's borderline suicide. You would be much better off with a battery box and the adjustable gain of your recorder's line input. I'm not familiar with the CA-9100s circuitry and what it's doing on various gain settings, but can only assume it's passing the signal through more circuitry than needed.

A simple 9v power source w/ good quality dc blocking capacitors is all that is really needed and more akin to a 'straight wire.' Adding a preamp device with moving parts, higher current drain, etc. can only create more points of failure. Without question, I think a simple battery box is the better tool for this specific task.

I have run into brickwalling issues running line in to my DR-2D using Schoeps MK4 and RBox twice.  The RBox runs a hotter signal than the NBox which has never had the issue.  The gain on your pre-amp may be the culprit.

Finally, we do need to consider the recorders maximum input level. I don't think it's the gain on the preamp because you mention it only distorts on the bass / kickdrum, but Daspy's experience here is correct. A 'hot' signal can definitely overload the DR-2D input.

Luckily, we can discuss a recorder's maximum input leve in exact voltages and compare it to other recorders. From the DR-2D Manual:

Quote
LINE IN jacks
Connector: 1/8” (3.5 mm) stereo mini Input impedance: 22 kΩ
Nominal input level: –10 dBV (0.32 V)
Minimum input level: –22 dBV (0.08 V)
Maximum input level: +6 dBV (2.0 V)

In terms of input overload resistance, +6 dBv isn't bad, but could be exceeded if an external preamp is used. I'm not going to go into huge detail on this, but let me compare to the line inputs of a few other recorders.

Sound Devices 7xx Line input: +26 dBu (+23.78 dBv)
Roland / Edirol R-44: +24 dBu (+21.78 dBv)
Sony PCM-M10: +6dBv (listed as "Rated input level: 2 V" in the manual specifications)

You'll notice a pretty big difference with the two 'professional' recorders with balanced inputs, but the DR-2D is on par with the venerable Sony M10, which is pretty touch to overload. It's not fun, but I can run a fixed gain pre like the PSP-2 (or Nbox) in front of the M10 for most shows. Dinosaur Jr, perhaps not, but most are fine.

This is in contrast to some handheld recorders with much, much lower input clipping levels. For example, the original R-09. I can't find the exact specification, but it was much lower than +6 dBv and would easily clip with an Nbox.

Huge bummer that the seller mistakenly sold you 4060s. I have no doubt they are the cause of your stack taping woes.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2016, 02:23:29 AM by hi and lo »
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Mics: Schoeps MK21 / MK22 / MK4 / MK4V / MK41V / MK41 / MK5; Neumann SKM140; AKG 480/CK61; MBHO 603/KA200N / DPA 4061 / Dynamic Audio Binaurals
Pres & A/Ds: E.A.A. PSP-2 (2x) / Aeta PSP-3 / Sonosax SX-M2 (2x) / Grace V3 / Naiant Tinybox v2.x (Reutelhuber) / Nbox+ / AD2k+ / SBM-1 (2x)
Recorders: 744T / R-44 / PCM-M10 (2x)

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?
« Reply #31 on: June 27, 2016, 05:28:04 AM »
Sound Devices 7xx Line input: +26 dBu (+23.78 dBv)
Roland / Edirol R-44: +24 dBu (+21.78 dBv)
Sony PCM-M10: +6dBv (listed as "Rated input level: 2 V" in the manual specifications)

guysonic measured this on the M10 and found it could handle +24 dBu.  The mic input could take ~ 2 dBu; Dsatz also measured the mic input, and found the same thing (~ 1 V).  It's difficult to overload that thing...

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?
« Reply #32 on: June 28, 2016, 11:52:14 AM »
Huge bummer that the seller mistakenly sold you 4060s. I have no doubt they are the cause of your stack taping woes.

I really think the seller could be misinformed about the products he sells.

I sent him a PM more than 3 weeks ago now, explaining the issue and how you can visually tell the difference between 4060's and 4061's.
I consider him liable for selling me the wrong product, so I asked if we could find a deal.

He never replied so I sent him a 2nd PM 3 days ago.

I don't think he's going to reply anyway. His ebay seller name is usedaudiogearuk.

I started a thread over the Ebay and 3rd Party Sales subforum : Ebay ads selling DPA4060 for DPA4061.

Because they are expensive, I spent alot of hours looking for information about those DPA4061 on taperssection.
I've talked to a bunch of tapers who were using them to get feedbacks (4060 or 4061 for my needs ?).
I listened to alot of audience tapes gathered from several websites just to help me making up mind on whether I'd buy a pair or not.

All of this just to finally get fucked by an asshole who doesn't know a shit about the items he's selling.

Also I have to disagree about 4060 not handling loud SPLs.  They go up to 134 dB - please tell me that nothing you're recording hits those levels. :drummer:

I first taped with MM-HLSC-1's (Sennheiser MKE 2's - max SPL: 138dB so not alot more than DPA4060's) and had to made them 4.7k modded to achieve non-brickwalled results.

At this time, I was running MM-HLSC-1 > SP BBox (flat) > Edirol R09-HR (line in).
It was ok for moderately loud rock acts like Jet (Australian rock band), David Gray, but bands like Skunk Anansie or Nickelback were definitely much too loud for those mics.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 12:14:36 PM by fandelive »
Mics : Sony ECM-717, SP-BMC-12, MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod), 2x DPA4060, 2x DPA4061
Battery box : SP-SPSB-6524 w/bass roll-off filter, MM-CBM-1
Preamp : Church Audio CA-9100
Recorders : Sony MZR-700PC, Edirol R-09HR, Tascam DR-2d

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?
« Reply #33 on: June 28, 2016, 01:21:40 PM »
^ I am pretty sure that the (omni) MKE2s were used for the MM-HLSO.  If I recall correctly, the MM-HLSC also had Sennheiser caps, but cardioids.  Not sure what model.

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?
« Reply #34 on: June 28, 2016, 01:54:26 PM »
^ I am pretty sure that the (omni) MKE2s were used for the MM-HLSO.  If I recall correctly, the MM-HLSC also had Sennheiser caps, but cardioids.  Not sure what model.

That's exact. Both HLSO and HLSC needed 4.7k mod to handle high SPLs.
Mics : Sony ECM-717, SP-BMC-12, MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod), 2x DPA4060, 2x DPA4061
Battery box : SP-SPSB-6524 w/bass roll-off filter, MM-CBM-1
Preamp : Church Audio CA-9100
Recorders : Sony MZR-700PC, Edirol R-09HR, Tascam DR-2d

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?
« Reply #35 on: June 28, 2016, 02:47:29 PM »
I first taped with MM-HLSC-1's (Sennheiser MKE 2's - max SPL: 138dB so not alot more than DPA4060's) and had to made them 4.7k modded to achieve non-brickwalled results.

That's not a meaningful comparison.

I'm familiar with the Sennheiser MKE2 but not familiar with it's wiring scheme.  However, it must be an unbalanced 3-wire low-voltage design because the 4.7k mod is one a way of adapting a 3-wire microphone to work via a 2-wire connection.  The manufacturer's specifications assume the intended 3-wire connection.  Senn's 138dB max SPL specification is only meaningful if using that intended 3-wire connection.

The microphone works when adapted for a 2-wire connection, but some specifications such as sensitivity and max SPL will change.  Adapted without implementing the mod, the sensitivity is going to be higher and the max SPL lower than if implementing the 4.7K mod. 

I do not know if a 2-wire 4.7k modded MK2 has a higher max SPL than a 3-wire connected MK2 or not.  I do know that a 2-wire MK2 with the 4.7k mod will have a significantly higher max SPL than a 2-wire MK2 without the mod.

« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 03:23:13 PM by Gutbucket »
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations > virtual teleportation time-machine experience

"Narrow or widely spaced microphone configurations are preferred. It is well-known experience that pure coincidence microphone concepts are not able to produce a satisfying natural spatial impression, due to the lack of adequate interchannel temporal relations (time-of-arrival, phase, correlation)" -Günther Theile
"The mix of the Double M/S signals with a large A/B configuration of omnis results in the spacious sound that is often desired. This option also provides decorrelated low-frequency signals." -Helmut Wittek

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?
« Reply #36 on: June 28, 2016, 03:02:11 PM »

In this situation, a preamp is not needed. In fact, I would say it's borderline suicide. You would be much better off with a battery box and the adjustable gain of your recorder's line input. I'm not familiar with the CA-9100s circuitry and what it's doing on various gain settings, but can only assume it's passing the signal through more circuitry than needed.

A simple 9v power source w/ good quality dc blocking capacitors is all that is really needed and more akin to a 'straight wire.' Adding a preamp device with moving parts, higher current drain, etc. can only create more points of failure. Without question, I think a simple battery box is the better tool for this specific task.
 

yeah, kind of what I was saying. I have some friends with 4060's and they don't have a brickwall problem at loud shows, either

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?
« Reply #37 on: June 28, 2016, 03:03:45 PM »
I'm familiar with the Sennheiser MKE2 but not familiar with it's wiring scheme. [...] The manufacturer's specifications assume the intended 3-wire connection.  Senn's 138dB max SPL specification is only meaningful if using that intended 3-wire connection.

Would it be the same for the DPA's ?
Because I got them originally terminated with 3 pin LEMO connectors. But I now use a pair terminated with one single stereo mini jack (3.5)...

A simple 9v power source w/ good quality dc blocking capacitors is all that is really needed and more akin to a 'straight wire.' Adding a preamp device with moving parts, higher current drain, etc. can only create more points of failure. Without question, I think a simple battery box is the better tool for this specific task.

yeah, kind of what I was saying. I have some friends with 4060's and they don't have a brickwall problem at loud shows, either

Now that you say this, I looked over my collection of audience tapes (not only my masters) and found out a couple of hard rocking performances taped with Coresound HEB (DPA4060 version). No brickwalling. Taped from 10ft back; directly in front of right stack on 8ft. stand.

But I know, for example, that CoreSound HEB have 3 pin connectors. Can you remember what kind of connectors did your friends DPAs have ?
« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 03:25:33 PM by fandelive »
Mics : Sony ECM-717, SP-BMC-12, MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod), 2x DPA4060, 2x DPA4061
Battery box : SP-SPSB-6524 w/bass roll-off filter, MM-CBM-1
Preamp : Church Audio CA-9100
Recorders : Sony MZR-700PC, Edirol R-09HR, Tascam DR-2d

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?
« Reply #38 on: June 28, 2016, 03:50:59 PM »
No, the miniature DPAs are all 2-wire to begin with, and the 4.7k mod does not apply to them.  When terminated to a 3-pin plug, only two of the pins are used, unless the plug also contains adapter circuitry for using the mic using a 3-wire powering device (such as a 3-wire battery box, preamp, or wireless transmitter).
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations > virtual teleportation time-machine experience

"Narrow or widely spaced microphone configurations are preferred. It is well-known experience that pure coincidence microphone concepts are not able to produce a satisfying natural spatial impression, due to the lack of adequate interchannel temporal relations (time-of-arrival, phase, correlation)" -Günther Theile
"The mix of the Double M/S signals with a large A/B configuration of omnis results in the spacious sound that is often desired. This option also provides decorrelated low-frequency signals." -Helmut Wittek

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?
« Reply #39 on: June 28, 2016, 03:51:19 PM »
We first ran into this problem 15 years ago. It's not new. Properly powered 4060s (both HEBs and stock versions) couldn't handle most Tool shows on the lateralus tour. Always low frequency distortion, but those were the biggest stacks I've ever seen and they were on the stage floor rather than hanging.

Then we tried 4061s with a much higher success rate, but still had one show with subtle distortion.

4062s are the only bulletproof solution for the loudest of shows.

I think the real problem here is the anecdotes. I don't think anyone here is on the same page as to what "loud" is. Everyone always thinks they've been to "the loudest show ever," but all that really matters here is the max / peak energy in the very low frequencies. That's not something the human ear is actually tuned for, so discussing it anecdotally is going to be misleading. Re: DPA's quote about max spl.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 04:06:26 PM by hi and lo »
Friends don't let friends buy tube mics...

Mics: Schoeps MK21 / MK22 / MK4 / MK4V / MK41V / MK41 / MK5; Neumann SKM140; AKG 480/CK61; MBHO 603/KA200N / DPA 4061 / Dynamic Audio Binaurals
Pres & A/Ds: E.A.A. PSP-2 (2x) / Aeta PSP-3 / Sonosax SX-M2 (2x) / Grace V3 / Naiant Tinybox v2.x (Reutelhuber) / Nbox+ / AD2k+ / SBM-1 (2x)
Recorders: 744T / R-44 / PCM-M10 (2x)

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?
« Reply #40 on: June 28, 2016, 04:28:51 PM »
In this situation, a preamp is not needed. In fact, I would say it's borderline suicide. You would be much better off with a battery box and the adjustable gain of your recorder's line input. [..snip..]

A simple 9v power source w/ good quality dc blocking capacitors is all that is really needed [..snip..] I think a simple battery box is the better tool for this specific task.

^
This is good advice.  Try a battery box rather than a preamp if you haven't done that yet.  Although 4061 is far more appropriate for your use than 4060 (and I sincerely hope you get the situation squared to your satisfaction with the ebay seller) this could end up be a workable solution for more of the shows you do.  It's worth a try at the very least and will determine if it is indeed the preamp and/or recorder which is distorting. 

Two very important caveats-

1) The Line-input of the DR2d has a very limited range of usable input level adjustment and will not offer much control over setting levels.   Input level for line-in must remain between 95 and 100 to avoid overloading of the input-stage.  If the meters are peaking and you try to compensate by reducing the line-input level to a setting lower than 95, the meters will no longer show overloading, however the input stage of the recorder will be distorting - classic "brickwall distortion" as it is commonly referred to here at TS.  That's the recorder's analog input stage overloading from an overly hot input before the signal reaches the ADC.

2) If levels are still going over with the line-input set to 95 and using battery box, you'll need to attenuate the signal between the battery box and the input of the recorder.  You can use an in-line attenuation cable to do that.  I suspect you are going to need one.

An attenuation cable won't solve the limited useful adjustment range of the DR2d's line-input by providing a means of adjustment (it only reduces the signal level by a given amount), but may allow you to make an undistorted recording.  If the resulting levels on the record is in an acceptable range (say peaking somewhere between -20 and 0dBFS), you can normalize the level of the finished recording later on the computer.

I can tell you that using 4060s for what you are recording you certainly will not need or want any positive preamp gain, and you'll likely need some attenuation.  I use 4060 > CA-UGLY(preamp) > DR2d, and these days I don't record much super loud stuff nor am I up close to the stacks if and when I do.  I use the preamp mostly as a way to power the mics, buffer the signal, and fine-tune the signal level out to the recorder.  In my use, I basically have the preamp set to near unity gain, which means it is neither amplifying nor attenuating the signal level from the microphones, or even to slightly negative gain, meaning it's acting as an active attenuation stage.  I'm more or less using the preamp as a fancy battery box.  And since that's a comfortable level for much of the stuff that I record, there is no way it's going to work for what you are recording. 

« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 05:00:01 PM by Gutbucket »
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations > virtual teleportation time-machine experience

"Narrow or widely spaced microphone configurations are preferred. It is well-known experience that pure coincidence microphone concepts are not able to produce a satisfying natural spatial impression, due to the lack of adequate interchannel temporal relations (time-of-arrival, phase, correlation)" -Günther Theile
"The mix of the Double M/S signals with a large A/B configuration of omnis results in the spacious sound that is often desired. This option also provides decorrelated low-frequency signals." -Helmut Wittek

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?
« Reply #41 on: June 28, 2016, 05:21:56 PM »
To recap:

First try 4060 > battery box > DR-2d line-input, with the input level set to 95.  If that does the trick you've solved the problem. 

But if the meters on the DR-2d indicate overload, then use an attenuation cable with sufficient attenuation between the battery box and the input of the DR-2d to reduce the signal level enough so that the meters no longer indicate overload.  If that does the trick you've solved the problem.

But if you are still getting bass distortion (and it's not the PA itself which is distorting), then you are safe in concluding it is the microphones themselves distorting and you'll need to move to 4061 or perhaps even 4062.

I'm sure you are aware of severe and permanent hearing damage caused by such insane sound pressure levels. You'll need to use extreme hearing protection if wearing the mics in those situations or standing anywhere near them, and I sincerely hope you are taking precautions to protect your hearing!
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations > virtual teleportation time-machine experience

"Narrow or widely spaced microphone configurations are preferred. It is well-known experience that pure coincidence microphone concepts are not able to produce a satisfying natural spatial impression, due to the lack of adequate interchannel temporal relations (time-of-arrival, phase, correlation)" -Günther Theile
"The mix of the Double M/S signals with a large A/B configuration of omnis results in the spacious sound that is often desired. This option also provides decorrelated low-frequency signals." -Helmut Wittek

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?
« Reply #42 on: June 28, 2016, 06:12:04 PM »
As a long-time 4060 user, one thing I can state with certainty is that the output from these mics can definitely overload consumer-level inputs.  I also know that there are shows ridiculously loud enough (especially as you get really close to the stacks) to overload the mics themselves (although I think this is pretty atypical).  In addition, it is worth noting that audible distortion will occur before the mic actually clips (same SPL as the 4061, though).  That being said, this is a pretty borderline case.  At 134 dBSPL, the mics will output about 8 dBu (5.8 dBV), which is very close to the maximum input level on the recorder.  It could actually be that either the mics, the recorder, or both are overloading here...

I'm sure you are aware of severe and permanent hearing damage caused by such insane sound pressure levels. You'll need to use extreme hearing protection if wearing the mics in those situations or standing anywhere near them, and I sincerely hope you are taking precautions to protect your hearing!

At those levels, probably something on the order of 25 dB attenuation in the plugs would be smart...

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?
« Reply #43 on: June 28, 2016, 06:20:19 PM »
Huge bummer that the seller mistakenly sold you 4060s. I have no doubt they are the cause of your stack taping woes.

I really think the seller could be misinformed about the products he sells.

I sent him a PM more than 3 weeks ago now, explaining the issue and how you can visually tell the difference between 4060's and 4061's.
I consider him liable for selling me the wrong product, so I asked if we could find a deal.

He never replied so I sent him a 2nd PM 3 days ago.

I don't think he's going to reply anyway. His ebay seller name is usedaudiogearuk.

I started a thread over the Ebay and 3rd Party Sales subforum : Ebay ads selling DPA4060 for DPA4061.

Because they are expensive, I spent alot of hours looking for information about those DPA4061 on taperssection.
I've talked to a bunch of tapers who were using them to get feedbacks (4060 or 4061 for my needs ?).
I listened to alot of audience tapes gathered from several websites just to help me making up mind on whether I'd buy a pair or not.

All of this just to finally get fucked by an asshole who doesn't know a shit about the items he's selling.

Also I have to disagree about 4060 not handling loud SPLs.  They go up to 134 dB - please tell me that nothing you're recording hits those levels. :drummer:

I first taped with MM-HLSC-1's (Sennheiser MKE 2's - max SPL: 138dB so not alot more than DPA4060's) and had to made them 4.7k modded to achieve non-brickwalled results.

At this time, I was running MM-HLSC-1 > SP BBox (flat) > Edirol R09-HR (line in).
It was ok for moderately loud rock acts like Jet (Australian rock band), David Gray, but bands like Skunk Anansie or Nickelback were definitely much too loud for those mics.

If seller doesn't respond open a case on EBay.  You will get your money back.  I ordered a "new" DR-2D.  I had contacted seller when I did not receive shipping confirmation 2 days before the last date on the delivery window.  No response.  Contacted again on last possible delivery date, no response.  I contacted seller to cancel, no response.  I opened an ebay case.   A week later I get a Dr-2D wrapped in one layer of bubble wrap in a manila envelope left by usps outside.  It was raining so package was wet.  I contact seller again but the next day ebay credits me due to seller being unresponsive.  Two weeks later seller contacts me and I tell them I received a wet DR-2D but never heard back.  The unit seemed new and works fine but it wasn't as ordered. 

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?
« Reply #44 on: June 29, 2016, 05:41:45 PM »
If seller doesn't respond open a case on EBay.  You will get your money back.

Many thanks for suggesting this. I just sent a complaint to both ebay and paypal to get my money back.
I'm pretty happy with the 4060's for moderately loud shows. But most shows I attend are ear-bleeding loud (and don't worry Mr Gutbucket : I always wear a pair of professional ear-plugs ;)).
Mics : Sony ECM-717, SP-BMC-12, MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod), 2x DPA4060, 2x DPA4061
Battery box : SP-SPSB-6524 w/bass roll-off filter, MM-CBM-1
Preamp : Church Audio CA-9100
Recorders : Sony MZR-700PC, Edirol R-09HR, Tascam DR-2d

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?
« Reply #45 on: January 22, 2017, 06:55:32 AM »
I replaced the preamp with a battery box to avoid getting gain from the power module.
I can still hear distortion, but maybe I'm paranoid.

Here's a sample; tell me what you think : sample_DPA4060.flac - 8.2 MB

Setup :
DPA 4060 > MM-CBM-1 (Microphone Madness 9V battery box with brand new battery) > Tascam DR-2d (line-in, levels set to 100).

And in fact, I think I can hear the same distorted sound on my alternate source. But again, maybe it's just me being paranoid. Sample : sample_MMHLSC1.flac - 8.1 MB

Setup :
MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod done by Chris Church)  > SP-SPSB-6524 (Sound Professionals 9V battery box) > Tascam DR-2d (mic-in set to "low", levels set to 88).

Both master waveforms peak at -6dB.
Mics : Sony ECM-717, SP-BMC-12, MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod), 2x DPA4060, 2x DPA4061
Battery box : SP-SPSB-6524 w/bass roll-off filter, MM-CBM-1
Preamp : Church Audio CA-9100
Recorders : Sony MZR-700PC, Edirol R-09HR, Tascam DR-2d

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?
« Reply #46 on: January 24, 2017, 04:46:18 PM »
Listened at work on inexpensive AT in-ears.  Can't hear what I've positively identified in other recordings as 4060 overload bass distortion.  I think it's just the sound in the room.  A lot more bass in the 4060 recording than the MM-HLSC-1 recording. 

Use a graphic EQ to play around with finding an appropriate compensation curve for the bottom, and a cut around 12kHz (sometimes with a mild boost just above and below to compensate) can tame excess sharp sibilant edginess up top.  I often end up using something of a 'W' shaped EQ curve for 4060/4061.  The left bass leg of the W totally depends on the music and the room.  A carefully tuned midrange bump helps enhance clarity.  The cuts above and below the midrange cleans up mud and the tizz.  I suggest using a graphic because it provides good visual and tactile feedback.  If you've got a handle on that you can move more easily to a parametric.

Here's my quick and dirty curve using VLC's playback EQ (and the AT in-ears)-

volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations > virtual teleportation time-machine experience

"Narrow or widely spaced microphone configurations are preferred. It is well-known experience that pure coincidence microphone concepts are not able to produce a satisfying natural spatial impression, due to the lack of adequate interchannel temporal relations (time-of-arrival, phase, correlation)" -Günther Theile
"The mix of the Double M/S signals with a large A/B configuration of omnis results in the spacious sound that is often desired. This option also provides decorrelated low-frequency signals." -Helmut Wittek

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?
« Reply #47 on: January 26, 2017, 01:59:52 AM »
Many thanks for those EQ tips Gutbucket; I did try and it improves the sound  :coolguy:
I actually already removed a bit of bass on the samples I posted. But I always left plenty of it for people to be still able to adjust for their convenience.

Depending on the playback device (my laptop at home w/a Sennheiser Momentum headset, my laptop at work w/a Sennheiser Momentum headset too, my car, my cheap home stereo), I think I can hear more or less bass distortion.
I set the recording level to 100. Maybe I should lower it to 95 or 96 next time. I've heard that the Tascam dr-2D preamp can be picky. Would this be possible ?
« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 03:49:06 AM by fandelive »
Mics : Sony ECM-717, SP-BMC-12, MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod), 2x DPA4060, 2x DPA4061
Battery box : SP-SPSB-6524 w/bass roll-off filter, MM-CBM-1
Preamp : Church Audio CA-9100
Recorders : Sony MZR-700PC, Edirol R-09HR, Tascam DR-2d

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?
« Reply #48 on: January 26, 2017, 08:53:43 AM »
I did find less low bass than I expected for a 4060 recording with potential bass distortion, so your comment on having reduced bass level a bit in the samples makes sense.

DR2d line in level settings anywhere between 95 and 100 are fine.  Just don't go below 95 in an attempt to avoid clipping.  I don't think that will change much though if you didn't get overs with it set to 100, but doing so won't hurt.

Remember that EQ curve is only approximate, and specific to each recording.  The most appropriate EQ curve will vary significantly based on a lot of things- the band, the music, the room, the mix, the PA, your particular mic setup, your placement in the room, what you had for lunch earlier..

volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations > virtual teleportation time-machine experience

"Narrow or widely spaced microphone configurations are preferred. It is well-known experience that pure coincidence microphone concepts are not able to produce a satisfying natural spatial impression, due to the lack of adequate interchannel temporal relations (time-of-arrival, phase, correlation)" -Günther Theile
"The mix of the Double M/S signals with a large A/B configuration of omnis results in the spacious sound that is often desired. This option also provides decorrelated low-frequency signals." -Helmut Wittek

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?
« Reply #49 on: January 28, 2017, 12:37:31 PM »
Here are two more samples from the same show. I'm 99.9% sure the DPA 4060 source suffers from brickwalling.

The venue was a very small french club (300 capacity) and this was recorded from the (top of the triangle) sweet spot, but I only stood something like 5 to 6 rows away from stage and speakers.
In France, a law was voted in 1998. Venues have to limit SPLs to a 105dB medium level and a 120dB peak level.
That's way under 134dB which is supposed to be the maximum SPL a DPA 4060 can handle...

Here's another one recorded in another small club in Germany.

I stood further away (10th row maybe) and closer to a wall. Performance was electric and rageous, but no brickwalling that time... I didn't use a battery box but the Chruch Audio preamp set to no additional gain.

That's annoying because you're not supposed to stand too far away from speakers when taping with omnis.
My conclusion is that 4060's are not suitable for amplified rock, even semi-acoustic.
Mics : Sony ECM-717, SP-BMC-12, MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod), 2x DPA4060, 2x DPA4061
Battery box : SP-SPSB-6524 w/bass roll-off filter, MM-CBM-1
Preamp : Church Audio CA-9100
Recorders : Sony MZR-700PC, Edirol R-09HR, Tascam DR-2d

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?
« Reply #50 on: January 30, 2017, 09:43:23 AM »
I've only listened to the (dpa4060-ppif.wav - 9.2 MB) clip since that download site requires an hour wait before initializing a second download, but can hear no significant audible bass distortion, and certainly no brickwalling. The file sounds quite good to me. You might check whatever it is you are using for listening, as I suspect it may be your playback system which is overloading. 

Here the quick VLC EQ I dialed in, listening through the same AT in-ears I used previously.  Notice that I've sculpted the upper bass range, yet actually boosted the very low bass.  Keep in mind that this quick corrective curve is based only on listening through these ear-phones and this very short audio clip.

volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations > virtual teleportation time-machine experience

"Narrow or widely spaced microphone configurations are preferred. It is well-known experience that pure coincidence microphone concepts are not able to produce a satisfying natural spatial impression, due to the lack of adequate interchannel temporal relations (time-of-arrival, phase, correlation)" -Günther Theile
"The mix of the Double M/S signals with a large A/B configuration of omnis results in the spacious sound that is often desired. This option also provides decorrelated low-frequency signals." -Helmut Wittek

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?
« Reply #51 on: January 30, 2017, 10:10:15 AM »
I just downloaded and installed a copy of Audacity to visually check the waveform and it shows no indication of brickwalling.  Although bass distortion is not always visible in a waveform, brick walling is quite easily visible, and the (dpa4060-ppif.wav - 9.2 MB) clip both looks and sounds clean.

 
In France, a law was voted in 1998. Venues have to limit SPLs to a 105dB medium level and a 120dB peak level.
[snip]
That's annoying because you're not supposed to stand too far away from speakers when taping with omnis.
My conclusion is that 4060's are not suitable for amplified rock, even semi-acoustic.

The 4060 microphone itself should be okay at those levels.  Due to being a true pressure-omni it does not roll off the lower bass like most directional microphones, and like most small lav directional mics will to an even greater extent.  And, due to it's high sensitivity, it will create a hot output at high SPLs which can overload some downstream gear.

There is no hard and fast rule about how far away one can use omnis.  When recording indoors in a reverberant space it often makes sense to use them closer to the source to achieve an appropriate direct-sound / reverberant-sound balance in the resulting recording, yet conversely, when recording outdoors where room reverberance does not build up in the same way with distance, omnis are often a better choice than directional microphones from very far away.

As for your final conclusion, all I can say is that many here at TS have used them successfully for such music, including myself.
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations > virtual teleportation time-machine experience

"Narrow or widely spaced microphone configurations are preferred. It is well-known experience that pure coincidence microphone concepts are not able to produce a satisfying natural spatial impression, due to the lack of adequate interchannel temporal relations (time-of-arrival, phase, correlation)" -Günther Theile
"The mix of the Double M/S signals with a large A/B configuration of omnis results in the spacious sound that is often desired. This option also provides decorrelated low-frequency signals." -Helmut Wittek

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?
« Reply #52 on: January 31, 2017, 11:32:44 AM »
I've only listened to the (dpa4060-ppif.wav - 9.2 MB) clip since that download site requires an hour wait before initializing a second download, but can hear no significant audible bass distortion, and certainly no brickwalling. The file sounds quite good to me. You might check whatever it is you are using for listening, as I suspect it may be your playback system which is overloading.

Well, you are right. I listened to the whole show on a friend's home stereo and we could hear no distortion at all.
My personal laptop is an expensive Sony VAIO. Still, the audio output seems a little crap when it's about heavy bass. My work laptop's audio output sounds even crappier... (motherboard integrated audio chipset for both).

All in all, I'm happy to see that the 4060s are performing well. I love their sound !!! So much better (if comparable) than the MM-HLSC-1's.

Got to improve my remastering skills now :)
Many thanks for helping me out !
Mics : Sony ECM-717, SP-BMC-12, MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod), 2x DPA4060, 2x DPA4061
Battery box : SP-SPSB-6524 w/bass roll-off filter, MM-CBM-1
Preamp : Church Audio CA-9100
Recorders : Sony MZR-700PC, Edirol R-09HR, Tascam DR-2d

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?
« Reply #53 on: January 31, 2017, 11:38:39 AM »
Glad to help and happy you got it figured out.

Cheers.  :cheers:
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations > virtual teleportation time-machine experience

"Narrow or widely spaced microphone configurations are preferred. It is well-known experience that pure coincidence microphone concepts are not able to produce a satisfying natural spatial impression, due to the lack of adequate interchannel temporal relations (time-of-arrival, phase, correlation)" -Günther Theile
"The mix of the Double M/S signals with a large A/B configuration of omnis results in the spacious sound that is often desired. This option also provides decorrelated low-frequency signals." -Helmut Wittek

 

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