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Author Topic: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?  (Read 5373 times)

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Offline fandelive

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?
« Reply #45 on: January 22, 2017, 06:55:32 AM »
I replaced the preamp with a battery box to avoid getting gain from the power module.
I can still hear distortion, but maybe I'm paranoid.

Here's a sample; tell me what you think : sample_DPA4060.flac - 8.2 MB

Setup :
DPA 4060 > MM-CBM-1 (Microphone Madness 9V battery box with brand new battery) > Tascam DR-2d (line-in, levels set to 100).

And in fact, I think I can hear the same distorted sound on my alternate source. But again, maybe it's just me being paranoid. Sample : sample_MMHLSC1.flac - 8.1 MB

Setup :
MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod done by Chris Church)  > SP-SPSB-6524 (Sound Professionals 9V battery box) > Tascam DR-2d (mic-in set to "low", levels set to 88).

Both master waveforms peak at -6dB.
Mics : Sony ECM-717, SP-BMC-12, MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod), 2x DPA4060, 2x DPA4061
Battery box : SP-SPSB-6524 w/bass roll-off filter, MM-CBM-1
Preamp : Church Audio CA-9100
Recorders : Sony MZR-700PC, Edirol R-09HR, Tascam DR-2d

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?
« Reply #46 on: January 24, 2017, 04:46:18 PM »
Listened at work on inexpensive AT in-ears.  Can't hear what I've positively identified in other recordings as 4060 overload bass distortion.  I think it's just the sound in the room.  A lot more bass in the 4060 recording than the MM-HLSC-1 recording. 

Use a graphic EQ to play around with finding an appropriate compensation curve for the bottom, and a cut around 12kHz (sometimes with a mild boost just above and below to compensate) can tame excess sharp sibilant edginess up top.  I often end up using something of a 'W' shaped EQ curve for 4060/4061.  The left bass leg of the W totally depends on the music and the room.  A carefully tuned midrange bump helps enhance clarity.  The cuts above and below the midrange cleans up mud and the tizz.  I suggest using a graphic because it provides good visual and tactile feedback.  If you've got a handle on that you can move more easily to a parametric.

Here's my quick and dirty curve using VLC's playback EQ (and the AT in-ears)-

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Offline fandelive

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?
« Reply #47 on: January 26, 2017, 01:59:52 AM »
Many thanks for those EQ tips Gutbucket; I did try and it improves the sound  :coolguy:
I actually already removed a bit of bass on the samples I posted. But I always left plenty of it for people to be still able to adjust for their convenience.

Depending on the playback device (my laptop at home w/a Sennheiser Momentum headset, my laptop at work w/a Sennheiser Momentum headset too, my car, my cheap home stereo), I think I can hear more or less bass distortion.
I set the recording level to 100. Maybe I should lower it to 95 or 96 next time. I've heard that the Tascam dr-2D preamp can be picky. Would this be possible ?
« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 03:49:06 AM by fandelive »
Mics : Sony ECM-717, SP-BMC-12, MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod), 2x DPA4060, 2x DPA4061
Battery box : SP-SPSB-6524 w/bass roll-off filter, MM-CBM-1
Preamp : Church Audio CA-9100
Recorders : Sony MZR-700PC, Edirol R-09HR, Tascam DR-2d

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?
« Reply #48 on: January 26, 2017, 08:53:43 AM »
I did find less low bass than I expected for a 4060 recording with potential bass distortion, so your comment on having reduced bass level a bit in the samples makes sense.

DR2d line in level settings anywhere between 95 and 100 are fine.  Just don't go below 95 in an attempt to avoid clipping.  I don't think that will change much though if you didn't get overs with it set to 100, but doing so won't hurt.

Remember that EQ curve is only approximate, and specific to each recording.  The most appropriate EQ curve will vary significantly based on a lot of things- the band, the music, the room, the mix, the PA, your particular mic setup, your placement in the room, what you had for lunch earlier..

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Offline fandelive

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?
« Reply #49 on: January 28, 2017, 12:37:31 PM »
Here are two more samples from the same show. I'm 99.9% sure the DPA 4060 source suffers from brickwalling.

The venue was a very small french club (300 capacity) and this was recorded from the (top of the triangle) sweet spot, but I only stood something like 5 to 6 rows away from stage and speakers.
In France, a law was voted in 1998. Venues have to limit SPLs to a 105dB medium level and a 120dB peak level.
That's way under 134dB which is supposed to be the maximum SPL a DPA 4060 can handle...

Here's another one recorded in another small club in Germany.

I stood further away (10th row maybe) and closer to a wall. Performance was electric and rageous, but no brickwalling that time... I didn't use a battery box but the Chruch Audio preamp set to no additional gain.

That's annoying because you're not supposed to stand too far away from speakers when taping with omnis.
My conclusion is that 4060's are not suitable for amplified rock, even semi-acoustic.
Mics : Sony ECM-717, SP-BMC-12, MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod), 2x DPA4060, 2x DPA4061
Battery box : SP-SPSB-6524 w/bass roll-off filter, MM-CBM-1
Preamp : Church Audio CA-9100
Recorders : Sony MZR-700PC, Edirol R-09HR, Tascam DR-2d

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?
« Reply #50 on: January 30, 2017, 09:43:23 AM »
I've only listened to the (dpa4060-ppif.wav - 9.2 MB) clip since that download site requires an hour wait before initializing a second download, but can hear no significant audible bass distortion, and certainly no brickwalling. The file sounds quite good to me. You might check whatever it is you are using for listening, as I suspect it may be your playback system which is overloading. 

Here the quick VLC EQ I dialed in, listening through the same AT in-ears I used previously.  Notice that I've sculpted the upper bass range, yet actually boosted the very low bass.  Keep in mind that this quick corrective curve is based only on listening through these ear-phones and this very short audio clip.

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?
« Reply #51 on: January 30, 2017, 10:10:15 AM »
I just downloaded and installed a copy of Audacity to visually check the waveform and it shows no indication of brickwalling.  Although bass distortion is not always visible in a waveform, brick walling is quite easily visible, and the (dpa4060-ppif.wav - 9.2 MB) clip both looks and sounds clean.

 
In France, a law was voted in 1998. Venues have to limit SPLs to a 105dB medium level and a 120dB peak level.
[snip]
That's annoying because you're not supposed to stand too far away from speakers when taping with omnis.
My conclusion is that 4060's are not suitable for amplified rock, even semi-acoustic.

The 4060 microphone itself should be okay at those levels.  Due to being a true pressure-omni it does not roll off the lower bass like most directional microphones, and like most small lav directional mics will to an even greater extent.  And, due to it's high sensitivity, it will create a hot output at high SPLs which can overload some downstream gear.

There is no hard and fast rule about how far away one can use omnis.  When recording indoors in a reverberant space it often makes sense to use them closer to the source to achieve an appropriate direct-sound / reverberant-sound balance in the resulting recording, yet conversely, when recording outdoors where room reverberance does not build up in the same way with distance, omnis are often a better choice than directional microphones from very far away.

As for your final conclusion, all I can say is that many here at TS have used them successfully for such music, including myself.
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Offline fandelive

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?
« Reply #52 on: January 31, 2017, 11:32:44 AM »
I've only listened to the (dpa4060-ppif.wav - 9.2 MB) clip since that download site requires an hour wait before initializing a second download, but can hear no significant audible bass distortion, and certainly no brickwalling. The file sounds quite good to me. You might check whatever it is you are using for listening, as I suspect it may be your playback system which is overloading.

Well, you are right. I listened to the whole show on a friend's home stereo and we could hear no distortion at all.
My personal laptop is an expensive Sony VAIO. Still, the audio output seems a little crap when it's about heavy bass. My work laptop's audio output sounds even crappier... (motherboard integrated audio chipset for both).

All in all, I'm happy to see that the 4060s are performing well. I love their sound !!! So much better (if comparable) than the MM-HLSC-1's.

Got to improve my remastering skills now :)
Many thanks for helping me out !
Mics : Sony ECM-717, SP-BMC-12, MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod), 2x DPA4060, 2x DPA4061
Battery box : SP-SPSB-6524 w/bass roll-off filter, MM-CBM-1
Preamp : Church Audio CA-9100
Recorders : Sony MZR-700PC, Edirol R-09HR, Tascam DR-2d

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Brickwalling with DPA4061 > CA-9100 > Tascam DR-2d (line-in)?
« Reply #53 on: January 31, 2017, 11:38:39 AM »
Glad to help and happy you got it figured out.

Cheers.  :cheers:
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations > virtual teleportation time-machine experience

 

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