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Author Topic: Portable live recording for bluegrass band  (Read 2568 times)

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Offline msteudel

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Portable live recording for bluegrass band
« on: June 09, 2016, 02:26:36 PM »
So I'm completely new to the whole taper/portable recording device, but I'm in a six piece Bluegrass band and we are looking to do some "guerrilla" recording around town, where we get pretty good sound and video at various locations. Hoping to do a couple videos every month.

I'm not sure what the best way to accomplish this is, but was thinking we'd do something like using our Large condenser microphone (Ear trumpet labs Louise) maybe a second Large condenser or tie in the bass directly and then use the on board stereo mics of the device and then later blend them all together into one sound that we'd sync up with the camera. I'm hoping the cost is some where in the 200 - 300 dollar range. Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance!

Offline twatts (that "Pants" thing is so lame...)

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Re: Portable live recording for bluegrass band
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2016, 03:08:19 PM »
Any suggestions?


Find a local taper and have them do it in exchange for free tickets and/or beer... 

Terry
***Do you have PHISH, VIDA BLUE, JAZZ MANDOLIN PROJECT or any other Phish related DATs/Tapes/MDs that need to be transferred???  I can do them for you!!!***

I will return your DATs/Tapes/MDs.  I'll also provide Master FLAC files via DropBox.  PM me for details.

Sony PCM R500 > SPDIF > Tascam HD-P2
Nakamichi DR-3 > (Oade Advanced Concert Mod) Tascam HD-P2
Sony MDS-JE510 > Hosa ODL-276 > Tascam HD-P2

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Offline Craig T

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Re: Portable live recording for bluegrass band
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2016, 03:32:48 PM »
Single omni at vocal height for vocals/group play, 1 or 2 flanking cardiods for solos, DI the bass.  You can get a good capture with 4 channels.  Fiddle and banjo will cut through everything.  Vocals, mandolin, guitar and bass are typically lower without amplification.
Schoeps cmc6/4v / Line Audio CM3, OM1 / ADK A51 / Church Audio CA-14
Naiant Tinybox v2.2 / NBox(P) / Apogee Mini-MP / Church Audio ST9200 / CA-UGLY
Sony PCM-M10 / Tascam DR-70D

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Portable live recording for bluegrass band
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2016, 04:19:08 PM »
What Craig suggests is a good recording setup for this genera.  Here's a photo showing Chatham Co. Line's live setup which is basically that-



But that's a technical answer which places the cart before the horse.  The more basic answer which best addresses your needs is most likely Terry's!  Leverage the expertise of a local taper who enjoys your style of music and has figured out how to record it well by doing it many years for fun.  They'll bring expertise as well as appropriate gear.  The expertise is the bigger challenge of the two.  In addition the taper can focus on all the recording aspects, allowing you to focus on playing and not have to think or worry about the technical recording stuff, which will probably lead to a healthier dynamic and better recordings.
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations > virtual teleportation time-machine experience

"Narrow or widely spaced microphone configurations are preferred. It is well-known experience that pure coincidence microphone concepts are not able to produce a satisfying natural spatial impression, due to the lack of adequate interchannel temporal relations (time-of-arrival, phase, correlation)" -Günther Theile
"The mix of the Double M/S signals with a large A/B configuration of omnis results in the spacious sound that is often desired. This option also provides decorrelated low-frequency signals." -Helmut Wittek

Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Portable live recording for bluegrass band
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2016, 04:39:46 PM »
^ all the above input. 

The typical setup for this music is the one in the picture (though I've often seen it done without the accompanying cards, which seem somewhat essential).  4 channels should do it.  The bass is probably the only thing needing reinforcement in this sort of context (thus one DI) and it may not need much. 

I favor ambient sound as much as possible in any setting.  It's much truer and far better captures the dynamic that is the key to a quality group.  It's also a lot simpler to work with and to edit later. 
Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline msteudel

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Re: Portable live recording for bluegrass band
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2016, 12:38:26 PM »
I favor ambient sound as much as possible in any setting.  It's much truer and far better captures the dynamic that is the key to a quality group.  It's also a lot simpler to work with and to edit later.
When you refer to ambient sound do you mean just the sound out of the room into a mic vs instruments plugging directly in (as you mentioned the bass)?

Offline msteudel

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Re: Portable live recording for bluegrass band
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2016, 12:43:28 PM »
Single omni at vocal height for vocals/group play, 1 or 2 flanking cardiods for solos, DI the bass.  You can get a good capture with 4 channels.  Fiddle and banjo will cut through everything.  Vocals, mandolin, guitar and bass are typically lower without amplification.
What about the actual recording device? Suggestions there? Was looking at the tascam 70d ... that would allow me 4 channels.

Offline msteudel

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Re: Portable live recording for bluegrass band
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2016, 12:44:14 PM »

Find a local taper and have them do it in exchange for free tickets and/or beer... 

Terry

I'll do that ... though the number of videos we want to put out might mean I owe someone a lifetime worth of tickets and beer ...

Offline msteudel

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Re: Portable live recording for bluegrass band
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2016, 12:49:57 PM »
But that's a technical answer which places the cart before the horse.  The more basic answer which best addresses your needs is most likely Terry's!  Leverage the expertise of a local taper who enjoys your style of music and has figured out how to record it well by doing it many years for fun.  They'll bring expertise as well as appropriate gear.  The expertise is the bigger challenge of the two.  In addition the taper can focus on all the recording aspects, allowing you to focus on playing and not have to think or worry about the technical recording stuff, which will probably lead to a healthier dynamic and better recordings.
I love Catham Co! I've definitely got some folks in mind that might be willing to help out.

But one of the issues I see is that playing as a band into a single mic really takes some practice. So at our practices we need to be constantly practice distance control and movement etc. and be able to listen to the recordings to get feedback on what's working and not working. Plus while I would rather have someone help handle this, coordinating 6 piece band plus someone doing the recording for free (even in exchange for tickets and beer) is a lot of logistics. I'd like to have my own gear so I can just do it without having to coordinate with someone.

Anyway I think I'll pursue both avenues, find someone to help learn the ropes and get my own gear so I can have the flexibility. Suggestions on recording devices?

Offline twatts (that "Pants" thing is so lame...)

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Re: Portable live recording for bluegrass band
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2016, 01:09:04 PM »

Find a local taper and have them do it in exchange for free tickets and/or beer... 

Terry

I'll do that ... though the number of videos we want to put out might mean I owe someone a lifetime worth of tickets and beer ...

My response was half-sarcasm...  But GutBucket made a very good point in that you'll want to focus on your playing on not on running your gear... 

Terry
***Do you have PHISH, VIDA BLUE, JAZZ MANDOLIN PROJECT or any other Phish related DATs/Tapes/MDs that need to be transferred???  I can do them for you!!!***

I will return your DATs/Tapes/MDs.  I'll also provide Master FLAC files via DropBox.  PM me for details.

Sony PCM R500 > SPDIF > Tascam HD-P2
Nakamichi DR-3 > (Oade Advanced Concert Mod) Tascam HD-P2
Sony MDS-JE510 > Hosa ODL-276 > Tascam HD-P2

******

Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Portable live recording for bluegrass band
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2016, 03:15:49 PM »
I favor ambient sound as much as possible in any setting.  It's much truer and far better captures the dynamic that is the key to a quality group.  It's also a lot simpler to work with and to edit later.
When you refer to ambient sound do you mean just the sound out of the room into a mic vs instruments plugging directly in (as you mentioned the bass)?

Yes.  The sound in the room.  That's what people hear.  If the purpose is as a learning tool it is best to hear what the audience does.  That also means you don't need to spend a lot of time you may not have editing and mixing (the more sources and channels the more time and software required). 

If it is really for reference you could go simpler with a "stage lip" sort of two channel approach using suitable mics (I prefer cards, others would use omnis).  That eliminates having to play toward the mics or to bear those too much in mind while playing and gives you a very real assessment of how you sound to the audience. 

Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Portable live recording for bluegrass band
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2016, 03:28:02 PM »
I love Catham Co! I've definitely got some folks in mind that might be willing to help out.

But one of the issues I see is that playing as a band into a single mic really takes some practice. So at our practices we need to be constantly practice distance control and movement etc. and be able to listen to the recordings to get feedback on what's working and not working. Plus while I would rather have someone help handle this, coordinating 6 piece band plus someone doing the recording for free (even in exchange for tickets and beer) is a lot of logistics. I'd like to have my own gear so I can just do it without having to coordinate with someone.

Anyway I think I'll pursue both avenues, find someone to help learn the ropes and get my own gear so I can have the flexibility. Suggestions on recording devices?

That practice seems very useful.  It seems a little more difficult in bluegrass where the single mic is involved and the players essentially have to hold the circle.  Nevertheless that may (or may not) be how you'd find you band mic'd at larger performances/broadcasts/professional opportunities so were it me I'd have a goal of being good at the control required... 

Coordinating the band plus the recording seems a bigger challenge than having someone else do it but I think you would need your own setup if you want to do every show and rehearsals and all the rest. 

Your budget seemed pretty limited as well I think (though you at least have a solid single LD mic).  The onboard mics of a device are usually pretty limited but if it is close and you're not loud they may provide something useful. 

As to recorder that Tascam does seem to be sort of a least cost 4 channel set up.  There is likely a lot of discussion of it around here in other threads. 

Given all that's on your plate I'd keep it simple.  Any of the ideas above are good.  You could start with the LD and onboard and see if that gets you something useful.  If it does good.  If not or if you want further improvement you can add other mics.  4 mics would likely cover most scenarios.  It is out of your price range but DPA offers a really nice clip on instrument mic for upright bass.  IMO that is the best approach to that instrument.  A lot of professionals use this and if they can get a DI for the bass in larger settings will ask that be used. 
Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline Justy Gyee

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Re: Portable live recording for bluegrass band
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2016, 04:09:43 PM »

Find a local taper and have them do it in exchange for free tickets and/or beer... 

Terry

I'll do that ... though the number of videos we want to put out might mean I owe someone a lifetime worth of tickets and beer ...
I didnt know a lifetime of beer was a possible payment plan!?!?.
Ive helped out mark a few times, but like his enthusiasm to do it himself.
Heres my first time seeing his band
Colonels of Truth Live at Nectar Lounge on 2015-08-11 : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive
https://archive.org/details/ColonelsOfTruth2015-08-11.akg483.flac24
« Last Edit: June 10, 2016, 04:12:25 PM by Justy Gyee »

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Portable live recording for bluegrass band
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2016, 04:16:53 PM »
Will you all be making vids in random locations, guerrilla filmmaker style? or making vids of performances where you are already mic'd onstage for the PA with the venue's mic's?

If guerrilla style you'll need microphones, mic stand(s) cables and a recorder.  If recording stage performances where you're already mic'd up for the PA you might get away with only the recorder with built-in mics, also recording a mix from the soundboard.
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations > virtual teleportation time-machine experience

"Narrow or widely spaced microphone configurations are preferred. It is well-known experience that pure coincidence microphone concepts are not able to produce a satisfying natural spatial impression, due to the lack of adequate interchannel temporal relations (time-of-arrival, phase, correlation)" -Günther Theile
"The mix of the Double M/S signals with a large A/B configuration of omnis results in the spacious sound that is often desired. This option also provides decorrelated low-frequency signals." -Helmut Wittek

Offline msteudel

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Re: Portable live recording for bluegrass band
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2016, 05:01:15 PM »
Will you all be making vids in random locations, guerrilla filmmaker style?

We were looking to take videos of us in random locations, guerilla style ... (that's the hope at least)

 

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